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Green Party leadership vote.

The mandate is there for the change, but 50% turnout is something we have to address. If only 50% of members are voting on issues like this, and less in internal elections, we need to look at our campaigning rules. However, I'm immensely proud that as a party we've taken our most internally divisive issue and put it to the members.

I'm pleased with the result and credit should go to the Empowerment campaign who have raised a lot of really important issues during the last eight months. I hope some improvements can be put to the motion by consensus between both sides of the party.
 
pingupete said:
The mandate is there for the change, but 50% turnout is something we have to address. If only 50% of members are voting on issues like this, and less in internal elections, we need to look at our campaigning rules. However, I'm immensely proud that as a party we've taken our most internally divisive issue and put it to the members.

I'm pleased with the result and credit should go to the Empowerment campaign who have raised a lot of really important issues during the last eight months. I hope some improvements can be put to the motion by consensus between both sides of the party.

There is no consensus between genuine Greens (who have lost today) and a professional power-mad clique who think they now have a mandate to turn the Green Party into a Grey Party: indeed the facile corporate-speak in this post is just the sort of policy the new 'Leader' will spout in the TV studios, as they make up Party policy. A sad day. Made worse by the blatant ignorance of data protection rules the clique engaged in.
 
Oswaldtwistle said:
Does this make Sian leader, or is there going to be a separate leadership election.

a separate election--where hopefully all the leader-cultists will fall out with each other!
 
I'll try and avoid "corporate" speak in future but we do need to build consensus because the nearly 1000 people who voted against did so in a principled way and that needs to be recognised. However 50% turnout is piss poor and if we are serious about genuine empowerment, participatory politics and all the grassroots stuff we talk about, it isn't a good advert for the party.

Next time there is an issue that goes to the members, we should try and engage each and every one, rather than limit stuff to activists and those that attend meetings. If we mean what we say about the public and truly engaging with the 70% of people that don't vote at local elections, we need to be serious about engaging the 50% of our members that didn't vote in this election.

I'd be a lot happier when choosing a leader if 80% of our members vote on it. I also think we are likely to see a strong co-leader ticket standing.
 
Oswaldtwistle said:
Who are the runners and riders then?

Well, judging by the amount of propaganda/begging letters received

Caroline Lucas MEP is preferred cult candidate

however

Jenny Jones MLA might have fancied her chances--although her support for Ian Blair will have alienated many

Darren Johnson MLA might be seen as credible

Sian Berry would see herself as a contender, doubt if many others would...

I would like to see Derek Wall standing, as he actually believes in Green politics & opposes the leader-cult.

Nothing declared yet mind.
 
One of the reasons I voted "no" was to avoid ongoing machinations, with a leadership vote every two years there is a danger of constant jockeying.

If there is a power mad clique it is important that they are exposed to the party. I accept the result, and will try not to mind having a leader too much.

What I wont accept is little machiavellian cohorts springing up around individuals who will constantly have their eye on the prize. There are probably at least half a dozen people who think they "deserve" to be leader sometime over the next decade or beyond. If they focus their energies on ego-fuelled ambition, rather than progressive policies and building the party, then it will be a sad day indeed.
 
Larry O'Hara said:
Well, judging by the amount of propaganda/begging letters received

Caroline Lucas MEP is preferred cult candidate

however

Jenny Jones MLA might have fancied her chances--although her support for Ian Blair will have alienated many

Darren Johnson MLA might be seen as credible

Sian Berry would see herself as a contender, doubt if many others would...

I would like to see Derek Wall standing, as he actually believes in Green politics & opposes the leader-cult.

Nothing declared yet mind.

I dont think the anti-leader folk can realistically run for leader. There will have to be a co-leader ticket to lose against Caroline.

She is not just the preferred one of the "cultists" - she is the genuine best option so I think the party can unite around her.
 
pingupete said:
I'll try and avoid "corporate" speak in future but we do need to build consensus because the nearly 1000 people who voted against did so in a principled way and that needs to be recognised. However 50% turnout is piss poor and if we are serious about genuine empowerment, participatory politics and all the grassroots stuff we talk about, it isn't a good advert for the party.

Indeed it isn't--but relax, after all the whole purpose of having a 'Leader' is to deprioritise and downgrade ordinary members. Who needs their participation when policy is decided in TV studios? I may seem flippant, but at its core giving power to the 'Leader' means taking it from the members: at least 27% of those who voted understood that!

Next time there is an issue that goes to the members, we should try and engage each and every one, rather than limit stuff to activists and those that attend meetings. If we mean what we say about the public and truly engaging with the 70% of people that don't vote at local elections, we need to be serious about engaging the 50% of our members that didn't vote in this election.

Again, relax--the 'Leader' doesn't need engagement, but followers, the more passive the better!

I'd be a lot happier when choosing a leader if 80% of our members vote on it. I also think we are likely to see a strong co-leader ticket standing.

Maybe make the voting compulsory? And if enough people don't vote, why not (a la Brecht) dissolve the Party and create another?
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I dont think the anti-leader folk can realistically run for leader. There will have to be a co-leader ticket to lose against Caroline.

She is not just the preferred one of the "cultists" - she is the genuine best option so I think the party can unite around her.

I really don't think those who support Caroline Lucas are the best people to give tactical advice to those of us who don't, and in my case never will--as Tony Benn says, policies are more important than personalities. I'll unite around them, not 'leaders', if that's ok...I respect your support for the 'no' vote, and really, though,. see Caroline Lucas as part of the problem, not the solution.
 
Larry O'Hara said:
I really don't think those who support Caroline Lucas are the best people to give tactical advice to those of us who don't, and in my case never will--as Tony Benn says, policies are more important than personalities. I'll unite around them, not 'leaders', if that's ok...I respect your support for the 'no' vote, and really, though,. see Caroline Lucas as part of the problem, not the solution.

I dont "support" CL - I just recognise that she will make the best leader now we've decided (against my wishes) to have one. I hope no ill comes of all this. I am skeptical that all this great meeja attention will ever happen. I kind of hope the party doesnt change much at all. It's all very well the old philosophcial basis rejecting hierarcy but in truth a lot of members werent even that aware of it. My anti-leader feelings were strong and well founded but I also decided not to get precious about them.

I am suprised by the size of the yes vote. Frankly I think much of it comes from armchair members, meetings I went to to discuss this generally had a majority against. Im told that was typical, i.e that often activists were against and the semi-dormant were pro. Not good really, but I dont think its fair to prejudge how things will go from hereonin. If things go badly I'll be among the first to say so.
 
I hope this isn't the start of the long road the German Greens took:, from 68 radicals to supporting illegal wars, cutting benefits, propping up unpopular and reactionary govts, etc.
 
treelover said:
I hope this isn't the start of the long road the German Greens took:, from 68 radicals to supporting illegal wars, cutting benefits, propping up unpopular and reactionary govts, etc.

no, not the start of the road--but a way down it (in fact we've just passed a sharp right turn into a dead-end where Jenny Jones supported Ian Blair over the de Menezes execution)
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
I dont "support" CL - I just recognise that she will make the best leader now we've decided (against my wishes) to have one. I hope no ill comes of all this. I am skeptical that all this great meeja attention will ever happen. I kind of hope the party doesnt change much at all. It's all very well the old philosophcial basis rejecting hierarcy but in truth a lot of members werent even that aware of it

And now the GP will pay for that lack of awareness.

I am suprised by the size of the yes vote. Frankly I think much of it comes from armchair members, meetings I went to to discuss this generally had a majority against. Im told that was typical, i.e that often activists were against and the semi-dormant were pro.

I agree: the dormant have voted to empower the leader cult at the expense of genuine activists. How can that not go wrong? Indeed from a leader-cult perspective that is precisely the aim of such changes!!
 
Larry O'Hara said:
no, not the start of the road--but a way down it (in fact we've just passed a sharp right turn into a dead-end where Jenny Jones supported Ian Blair over the de Menezes execution)

That would be the anti-leader J.Jones, who was quickly and publicly disagreed with on the matter by pro-leader fellow GLA Green D.Johnson.

Anyways, having made this decision much pursuaded it seems at the idea that this would make us more media friendly I have poked around the websites and news bulletins.

Of the Graun, Indie and BBC websites there is a mention on the beeb site alone quite low down in the UK news section.

No radio bulletin has announced this great decision.

I said during the campaign that we aint ignored because we dont have a leader, it's because our policies aint corpo-friendly, our philosophy is too deep for soundbites and we dont have the £££ for a big machine.

I hope I was wrong, I suspect I was right.
 
It was prominently mentioned on Radio 4's 6 pm news.

Personally, I don't think it will make a big difference; it will neither meet the wilder hopes of the yes campaign nor the wilder fears of the no campaign. The leader won't have much more power than the principal speakers now; the media have often referred to the principal speakers as leaders anyway.
 
taffboy gwyrdd said:
...Anyways, having made this decision much pursuaded it seems at the idea that this would make us more media friendly I have poked around the websites and news bulletins.

Of the Graun, Indie and BBC websites there is a mention on the beeb site alone quite low down in the UK news section.

No radio bulletin has announced this great decision.
Give it time.

taffboy gwyrdd said:
I said during the campaign that we aint ignored because we dont have a leader, it's because our policies aint corpo-friendly, our philosophy is too deep for soundbites and we dont have the £££ for a big machine.

I hope I was wrong, I suspect I was right.
It's probably a mix of both Taffboy, it is harder for the media to cover a political organisation that doesn't have a 'leader'.

E.g. with the other political parties, if Cameron or... erm, whoever for the LibDems criticises government policy, it's more likely to be taken up and reported prominently by the media than if some shadow minister or backbencher has a go. There's a hierarchy with the parties, i.e. Conservative criticism of Labour government is treated as more important than criticism coming from LibDems, Greens, SNP, Plaid Cymru or whoever, because Conservative party is the official opposition, the others in comparison are minor players.

So it's not just the message, but the source of the message that dictates where it features on the news agenda when editors are deciding what to cover, and how (i.e. short read to camera or a full package prepared in house or a full monty reporter on the scene, lives to camera) and for how long.

Again, if you have Cameron criticising the government, or a shadow minister or a backbencher, Cameron is more likely to be covered than the others.

The Greens have presented a problem in that respect, where media coverage is concerned, without a single recognised leader, it's can be too difficult to provide the kind of coverage the story warrants.

i.e. Cameron criticises government policy, it's likely to be biggish news, the editor's decided the story warrants a couple of minutes of airtime, the story starts: Leader of the Conservative Party David Cameron criticises Gordon Brown's latest policy announcement... blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah.

Green party criticises government policy, or Alex Salmond's SNP or George Galloway's Respect, well, they're minor parties, they don't warrant the same amount of airtime. The story needs to be said in soundbites.

How do you report Green party criticism of government policy with the pre-existing Green party leadership set up in a 30-45 second story?

You start the story: Sian Whatsername, one of the Green Party's two co-speakers, has today been criticising Gordon Brown's latest policy announcement.

You can't do that in a general news bulletin watched by a general audience as opposed to politics anoraks. You'd get away with it in one of the weekend political lunchtime shows, or Newsnight, or Channel 4 News, but the Six on the BBC? Unlikely. The journalist and the editor know that the audience at home is going to be sitting on their sofa and thinking: "Huh?" Co-speaker? What's that then? Why isn't their leader criticising Gordon Brown? Who is their leader? Your average Joe Bloggs thinks all political parties have a leader. Your average Joe Bloggs wants all political parties to have a distinct, identifiable leader (more on that later).

In terms of news coverage, in the news agenda, Green party pronouncements aren't as important as the official oppositions thoughts. You're going to get less airtime. If you're going to get less airtime, the message needs to be easily conveyable in that briefer airtime. That isn't possible when you have a political party who's leadership -- or rather non-leadership hierarchy/unconventional co-speaker system -- needs a good minute to explain to the audience.

If a journalist has 30-45 seconds to tell a story, but it takes a minute to explain Sian whatsername is a co-speaker (which means effectively one of two 'leaders' of the Green party, because the Green party doesn't have a leader, it has two co-speakers of equal importance who share power in the party)... oops! time out... you've run out of time to actually tell people the actual message that you're trying to convey...

The upshot of that is that an editor is not going to say, actually, this minor story (in terms of the news agenda) can't be told in 30-45 seconds, so we're going to bump it up, give it two minutes, because we're going to need to explain this whole co-speaker thing... the reality is that the story will be considered and then dropped due to time considerations, or the editor will already have had those factors in mind and wouldn't have considered covering it, because they know it can't be done in the journalistic timescale (less important story = less airtime) the story warrants.

It really is a factor.
 
My thoughts are on my blog, greenmans occasional organ here.
I have supported Green Empowerment (the "No" Camp) throughout the campaign.
However, we must now adapt to the new situation.
I agree with Taffboy (for once!;) ) I think it will be very difficult to defeat Caroline Lucas, and as Matt says she is already de facto "leader". All said and done, she is on the centre left of the party, so it is easier to live with than Darren Johnson anyway. Johnson is the one who will need to be defeated - for Deputy - if the left profile of the party is to be maintained (his progressive stance on Ian Blair notwithstanding)

I, like others above, think it will be very difficult for prominent members of the No Campaign/Green Left like Derek Wall to now stand for leader, and Derek has suggested tending his allotment is more appealing! It needs someone who remained fairly neutral in the debate, but is on the left of the party, to stand against Johnson and have a chance of defeating him.
I would like to propose Matt S!

I think that the co-leader option is potentially the worst of all worlds! (i.e. it will not even have a chance of achieving the fabled media clarity suggested by Ann O Neemus, but retains the unaccountability risks and abuse potential of leader/deputy.) Gender balance will now have to be maintained by rotation. As Matt has suggested, ( it being his problem with what Yes were proposing) rotation will now be one of the main battlegrounds.
 
Yay, Matt S for Deputy Leader, the first of the CJA/RTS generation to start the journey up the political greasy pole.



I, like others above, think it will be very difficult for prominent members of the No Campaign/Green Left like Derek Wall to now stand for leader, and Derek has suggested tending his allotment is more appealing! It needs someone who remained fairly neutral in the debate, but is on the left of the party, to stand against Johnson and have a chance of defeating him.
I would like to propose Matt S![QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
He he he - a very short greasy pole in the Green Party, I would say, with not much difference between the top and the bottom, and a very short duration poised at the top!;) (Thank goodness!):D
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
Give it time.

It's probably a mix of both Taffboy, it is harder for the media to cover a political organisation that doesn't have a 'leader'.

E.g. with the other political parties, if Cameron or... erm, whoever for the LibDems criticises government policy, it's more likely to be taken up and reported prominently by the media than if some shadow minister or backbencher has a go. There's a hierarchy with the parties, i.e. Conservative criticism of Labour government is treated as more important than criticism coming from LibDems, Greens, SNP, Plaid Cymru or whoever, because Conservative party is the official opposition, the others in comparison are minor players.

So it's not just the message, but the source of the message that dictates where it features on the news agenda when editors are deciding what to cover, and how (i.e. short read to camera or a full package prepared in house or a full monty reporter on the scene, lives to camera) and for how long.

Again, if you have Cameron criticising the government, or a shadow minister or a backbencher, Cameron is more likely to be covered than the others.

The Greens have presented a problem in that respect, where media coverage is concerned, without a single recognised leader, it's can be too difficult to provide the kind of coverage the story warrants.

i.e. Cameron criticises government policy, it's likely to be biggish news, the editor's decided the story warrants a couple of minutes of airtime, the story starts: Leader of the Conservative Party David Cameron criticises Gordon Brown's latest policy announcement... blah blah blah. Blah blah blah. Blah blah blah.

Green party criticises government policy, or Alex Salmond's SNP or George Galloway's Respect, well, they're minor parties, they don't warrant the same amount of airtime. The story needs to be said in soundbites.

How do you report Green party criticism of government policy with the pre-existing Green party leadership set up in a 30-45 second story?

You start the story: Sian Whatsername, one of the Green Party's two co-speakers, has today been criticising Gordon Brown's latest policy announcement.

You can't do that in a general news bulletin watched by a general audience as opposed to politics anoraks. You'd get away with it in one of the weekend political lunchtime shows, or Newsnight, or Channel 4 News, but the Six on the BBC? Unlikely. The journalist and the editor know that the audience at home is going to be sitting on their sofa and thinking: "Huh?" Co-speaker? What's that then? Why isn't their leader criticising Gordon Brown? Who is their leader? Your average Joe Bloggs thinks all political parties have a leader. Your average Joe Bloggs wants all political parties to have a distinct, identifiable leader (more on that later).

In terms of news coverage, in the news agenda, Green party pronouncements aren't as important as the official oppositions thoughts. You're going to get less airtime. If you're going to get less airtime, the message needs to be easily conveyable in that briefer airtime. That isn't possible when you have a political party who's leadership -- or rather non-leadership hierarchy/unconventional co-speaker system -- needs a good minute to explain to the audience.

If a journalist has 30-45 seconds to tell a story, but it takes a minute to explain Sian whatsername is a co-speaker (which means effectively one of two 'leaders' of the Green party, because the Green party doesn't have a leader, it has two co-speakers of equal importance who share power in the party)... oops! time out... you've run out of time to actually tell people the actual message that you're trying to convey...

The upshot of that is that an editor is not going to say, actually, this minor story (in terms of the news agenda) can't be told in 30-45 seconds, so we're going to bump it up, give it two minutes, because we're going to need to explain this whole co-speaker thing... the reality is that the story will be considered and then dropped due to time considerations, or the editor will already have had those factors in mind and wouldn't have considered covering it, because they know it can't be done in the journalistic timescale (less important story = less airtime) the story warrants.

It really is a factor.


Re all of this, not having a recognised 'leader' (apart from the eponymous Capt O'Neill) never stopped the IRA getting coverage did it?

More fundamentally, is Green politics about dancing to the jig played by the desiccated media, or building a powerful coalition to sweep aside the established fetid capitalist system? I favour the latter, & always will...
 
Larry O'Hara said:
Re all of this, not having a recognised 'leader' (apart from the eponymous Capt O'Neill) never stopped the IRA getting coverage did it?
But then again, I don't recall the Green Party trying to grab headlines by blowing up buildings and people, or kneecapping them...

And by the very nature of their activities, they had a variety of unnamed 'sources' as opposed to someone who was standing up saying I'm the leader Major-General Joe O'Bloggs, and I ordered that bombing.

And anyway, the IRA was the armed wing of Sinn Fein, so you're really not comparing like with like, I'm assuming Sinn Fein the political party did have a leader as opposed to a pair of equal in hierarchy and clout 'co-speakers'?
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
But then again, I don't recall the Green Party trying to grab headlines by blowing up buildings and people, or kneecapping them...

And by the very nature of their activities, they had a variety of unnamed 'sources' as opposed to someone who was standing up saying I'm the leader Major-General Joe O'Bloggs, and I ordered that bombing.

And anyway, the IRA was the armed wing of Sinn Fein, so you're really not comparing like with like, I'm assuming Sinn Fein the political party did have a leader as opposed to a pair of equal in hierarchy and clout 'co-speakers'?

missing the point: all I'm saying is you don't need a named 'leader' to get media coverage.

And anyway, do you really think Green politics is/should be about contouring our politics (and parrty structure) to fit the demands of the existing media? I certaibly don't.
 
Larry O'Hara said:
missing the point: all I'm saying is you don't need a named 'leader' to get media coverage.

And anyway, do you really think Green politics is/should be about contouring our politics (and parrty structure) to fit the demands of the existing media? I certaibly don't.
No. You're missing the point. They didn't get media coverage *despite lacking a leader*, they got media coverage because they were blowing things up and killing people.

No. I'm certainly not thinking or arguing that Green politics is/should be about contouring our politics (and parrty structure) to fit the demands of the existing media.

Conversely, are you thinking that the media should be contouring their news agenda (and bulletin structure) to fit the demands of a political party that doesn't have a traditional-style leader?

That argument works both ways.

In fact, though, I wasn't thinking that the Green party *should* do it per se. I was explaining how the media works, and that if your structure doesn't fit with how the media works, then it's pointless whining and complaining that you don't get media coverage.

It's not really a matter of "should", but it's a matter of recognising that if you're not getting the media coverage you think your policies deserve, there's possibly a reason for that, and when someone explains a possible/probably cause, you have choices, you *can* (not "should") adapt to how the media works in order to achieve your objective if (one of) your objective(s) is get more media coverage and to spread your message more widely to a larger audience, or alternatively, you *can* stick to your guns, stick with your unconventional co-speaker format. But if you do latter, it's silly to then gripe that the media isn't bending to meet your needs.

If that seems a bit one-sided, that the Green party has a choice between 'contouring' what it does, to achieve its aims, or not, but the media isn't going to reciprocate, then I'd agree, that does seem a bit one sided. You can change if you want to (or not, as the case may be), but the media isn't going to change to accommodate you. That may seem unfair. But you need the media more than the media needs you. The media can always find another story, there are plenty of other political parties who are sending out press releases about policies, plenty of other politicians briefing journalists and granting them interviews. Journalists, for the most part, will take what they get handed on a plate. They work under intense pressure and to deadlines. Generally speaking, if you're going to make life difficult for them, they'll simply move on to another story, one they can deliver within the required timescale. On the other hand, what alternative outlets do you have for your message?

I'm not thinking or arguing for that, just explaining that's the reality.
 
You are moving to the Great Satan, why oh why?



'No greasy pole for me gents, I'm moving to California in six months.

Matt'
 
Charlie Drake said:
According to Derek Wall's blog a cllr and a branch organiser have resigned over this issue. Dear. oh, dear. I hope there's no big split.

I don't know about the "branch organiser" (?) but one councillor has said he won't be standing again at the end of his term or renewing his national membership after next year (but will remain a local member). I don't think you can hype that as a resignation.
 
Jean-Luc said:
I'm not sure you've thought through fully the implications of this. Under the present election system in England the Green Party has no chance whatsoever of entering government, not even as a very junior partner as in Scotland and Ireland. So, if entering government to try and improve people's lives is your aim, it would make more sense to join one of the parties that does have a chance of doing this,ie either Labour or the Tories (which former editor of The Ecologist, Zac Goldsmith, has chosen).
But you miss the wider point of what is the best way for people to improve their lives (or, these days, to try to stop their lives getting worse): is it by following politicians and trusting them to do things for you or is it by organising democratically without leaders to try to do things for yourself with others?

I think you've slightly missed the point, Luc-y boy. Goldsmith is _not_ a former editor of the Ecologist who's "chosen" the Tories. He's a right-wing billionaire patrician, who helicopters to his west country pad, who had a magazine going as a vanity project.

Big difference.
 
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