audiotech
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Can't resist it can you, there was in actual fact a big fence stopping the confrontation if truth be known.
Live there do you?
Greatest fascist victory since 1930s : Time for a rethink?
- Thread starter taffboy gwyrdd
- Start date
Can't resist it can you, there was in actual fact a big fence stopping the confrontation if truth be known.
Live there do you?
no i think the research says it is more w/c than you suggest .. though you then suggest well off w/c are not actually w/c!
audiotech
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MC has indeed surpassed himself (and even attica) with dangerous blind blinkered ignorent self delusion .. butchers your post is spot on
audiotech
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Well they way you've talked up the threat from the BNP Griffin should have been Prime Minister and Barnbrook Chancellor by now.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Yes, I accept that.
SWP candidate at the last general Election? I don't think the SWP stood a candidate in 1997 did they? No doubt a typo eh?
However, SWP endorsing New Labour? I doubt it? Were they expelled?
This was 2005. He was an SWP member of RESPECT. He said he thought people should vote Labour where Repect didnt stand. Quelle numptie. As the Green on the panel I ridiculed him in aghast fashion. Shame the audience was so small to see him make such a twonk of himself. He's actually a nice person aside from all that.
audiotech
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hmm indeed my friend
Don't get all fraudulently chummy just yet, as I've not reviewed that HI piece for accuracy.
dennisr
the acceptable face
There is an interesting post from a slightly different situation than London - in Stoke where there are now two wards with three BNP councillors each. its the views of an SP member who has been involved in the direct socialist v bnp electoral head to heads:
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2259
"Labour Cracks in the Potteries"
no talk of no platform here - a sobering take on the various strategies tried and questions it raises, no claiming all the answers:\
"It has not challenged the BNP politically and nor has it mobilised non-BNP voters to come out in sufficient numbers to ’swamp’ BNP support. Turns outs remain at the usual 20-30% local election benchmark. A counter-strategy has to take into account the unpalatable fact that many in Stoke (and nation-wide) now see the BNP as ‘their party’. There are layers of young workers who have only ever put a cross next to the fascists on the ballot paper. No amount if moralising will shift them from this position."
"But we’re not daft enough to believe this is anywhere near the scale of the far right’s challenge. We cannot fill the vacuum to Labour’s Left by ourselves, and we certainly won’t be in a position to offer a socialist alternative in every ward within the next two years, barring unforseen events. This will take a good deal of long-term work building our influence and alliances with the rest of the Stoke left, and we are already taking steps to this end."
http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=2259
"Labour Cracks in the Potteries"
no talk of no platform here - a sobering take on the various strategies tried and questions it raises, no claiming all the answers:\
"It has not challenged the BNP politically and nor has it mobilised non-BNP voters to come out in sufficient numbers to ’swamp’ BNP support. Turns outs remain at the usual 20-30% local election benchmark. A counter-strategy has to take into account the unpalatable fact that many in Stoke (and nation-wide) now see the BNP as ‘their party’. There are layers of young workers who have only ever put a cross next to the fascists on the ballot paper. No amount if moralising will shift them from this position."
"But we’re not daft enough to believe this is anywhere near the scale of the far right’s challenge. We cannot fill the vacuum to Labour’s Left by ourselves, and we certainly won’t be in a position to offer a socialist alternative in every ward within the next two years, barring unforseen events. This will take a good deal of long-term work building our influence and alliances with the rest of the Stoke left, and we are already taking steps to this end."
audiotech
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cockneyrebel
New Member
No there wasn't, there was a totally flimsy fence that could have been easily knocked down. MC5 if you were there you would have seen UAF/SWP stewards telling people not to push forwards. Not that it matters given the state of the far left in general to focus on such a minor point, but it is bizarre that an organisation arguing against dropping no platform on one hand on the other hand backs the UAF strategy of "vote anyone but the BNP" (and who can forget Lee Jasper at the UAF lanch screaming down the mic we "luuuuuuuuuuve the hijab" and then getting the crowd to repeat it
) and when it does get a chance to implement no platform discourages people from doing it.......No, do you?
What research is that? Do you know the borough, because I do and sorry it's not like areas like Barking & Dagenham (for instance) in any sense whatsoever. And where did I suggest that well off working class people aren't working class? The phrase "working class done good" refers to well off self-employed and small business owners. Which in my view aren't really part of the working class.
For instance in Barking and Dagenham from what I can see from googling 35% of people in Class 1 and Class 2. In Bromley it's 60%.....a huge difference.
In Barking and Dagenham 25% of people are in Class 4 and 5. In Bromley it's about 12%
I'm guessing that the site I looked at is using Class 1-5 in roughly the same way as the A-C1 and C2-E measures.
The Black Hand
Unclean
What a load of cak. As if the world revolves around London - well actually....
The perspective I have been helping to build has not been brought into crisis by the latest election results.
There is no self delusion. Can you lot get it into your loaf that I disagree with you? I wonder.... I could call you lot 'over emotional extremely altruistic' or some such guff but that IS playground politics - so STOP IT NOW. PLEASE CAN YOU ALL rather than use abuse or name calling actually try to have politics and a reasoned political position for a change?
All I see here is a lot of stressed out old guard who have lost the plot. The day I agree with you lot is the day i am incapable of DIY independent thought.
AS it goes before I was banned on MATB last time i said I was in agreement with one of butchers pet subjects (increasing normalisation). Perhaps we are far apart -perhaps not, but I certainly do not want to go down the line of creating an organisation and a platform in advance to give (oh so genorously to the multitude), rather I want to encourage anti racism and anti fascism there is. And believe it or not there is a lot of it, which is not based upon any political party.
This is the area of autonomy perspective I was talking about, which is a new (unlike the stale slops which passed for anti fascist politics till then) player on the anti fascist arena - though it has always been there perhaps, but not as a consciously driven perspective and strategy.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
It was Bexley and Bromley and within it you have areas like Welling, Erith, Slade Green which are very traditional white working class. Until you do a breakdwn of stats ward by ward it's impossible to know.
The Black Hand
Unclean
This is interesting and useful.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Cheers dennisr.
That's the point, rather than just slagging of what others are doing, why don't people say what they think is a better way of building a working class anti-fascist alternative?
Durutti? Butchers? And as said given the IWCA has just lost 2 of its 3 seats to New Labour I think that some self-analysis is probably needed, or is it just more of the same?
That's the point, rather than just slagging of what others are doing, why don't people say what they think is a better way of building a working class anti-fascist alternative?
Durutti? Butchers? And as said given the IWCA has just lost 2 of its 3 seats to New Labour I think that some self-analysis is probably needed, or is it just more of the same?
The Black Hand
Unclean
I think they have finally woken up to the fact that they are not going to be a mass party.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Fair enough, but the stats I've put up show how different Bromley is to somewhere like Barking & Dagenham. I don't know Bexley at all. Bromley is a bluer than blue borough.
But I have little doubt that people in class 1, class 2 (as the site calls them) and many self-employed/small business owners boosted the NF and BNP vote. Butchers has put the stats up before and actually in the wards with lowest incomes the BNP does badly.
Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
Well if voting BNP means the national media and political class sit up and pay attention to poltical dissatisfaction more than they would for any other party, surely we should instead question the intelligence of those people surprised by this.
As long as the majority of the left recognise the class in unionised form only it won't change. The Greens in this election have been as part of the establishment as they ever have been so I would wager look as bad as all the rest.
that and i just dont buy that disaffected labour voters are turning to the bnp
whats actually happening is that disaffected tory voters are turning to the bnp as the tories have dropped (in public at least) some of their more bigoted approaches
audiotech
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No I wasn't there. Nevertheless, I don't see how knocking a fence over and attacking the BNP then would have served any purpose.
No, but this lot are.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Because, if you agree with no platform, it would have shown that the BNP can't organise an open meeting without physical resistance. As it was they got a bit of shouting and nothing more. To be honest though the BNP now openly organise stalls and meetings in Barking and Dagenham.
I think your approach (the IWCA) goes too far the other way and all but ignores workplace struggles. And given you've just lost 2 of your 3 councillors to new labour and that you've failed to spread that method while the BNP are growing all around the country it suggests that your approach isn't exactly making massive headway.
But why concentrate on the far left when they have less than a few thousand active members in the entire country? It's not like they're stopping any alternative being built, in many places (like Barking and Dagenham) the far left don't exist.
audiotech
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It was enough, as it appeared from news accounts that the BNP membership turnout was pitiful - almost non existent in fact.
I wouldn't be surprised if this had been deliberate ploy by the BNP to try and discredit anti-fascists, i,e hoping that anti-fascists would physically confront the few locals who had turned up?
cockneyrebel
New Member
So on one hand you say it's good if the BNP are no platformed.
On the other hand it isn't.
Dialectics.
On the other hand it isn't.
Dialectics.
audiotech
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Harold Hill
Jay Emm forgot his p/word
I'm not really involved with the IWCA anymore so I'm not certainly not to best to offer a credible analysis.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Are you chatting me up
Dhimmi
Half Man Half HobNob
The problem I see with current anti-fascist orgs is that they're typically projects of the left at a time when few people are really interested in politics let alone the left.
What are current BNP voters interested in aside from racism? I'd dare suggest they have a strong work ethic, and an amount of national pride. What does everyone else think?
What are current BNP voters interested in aside from racism? I'd dare suggest they have a strong work ethic, and an amount of national pride. What does everyone else think?
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