Greatest fascist victory since 1930s : Time for a rethink?

[treelover]

More than one, to me for the last 15 years it has been liberal england's dirty little secret: i remember a college student i knew saying, 'i am taking my dad down to the market to laugh at the freaks', on another occasion, another girl I knew vaguely (now a doctor!), visibly winced and said 'Ooh, he touched me', when one of the 'poor' brushed her arm, its deeper than you think. Ironically, both these women were impeccably right on and anti-racist, tbh, it stinks

oh, and much of the left, that's why we have campaigns for issues thousands of miles away, meanwhile, our big estates continue to fester.

On the other hand, maybe the snobby section of the white middle class that Hari is complaining about is the very same social group that has spent years promoting multikulti divisiveness - and this is no mere coincidence. Indeed, maybe some of the multikulti ideology is even inspired by a contempt for English plebs. (I can think of one rather 'PC' social worker who in his cups admitted that the English were the one group of people he dislikes.)

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Christ, if they werent stupid already, the fascists would be laughing themselves stupid to see the divisive bitching in the last few posts.

Surely the results would have been worse without anti fascist campainging, but the campaiging wasnt enough.

I never thought 3 GLA members was achievable but 2 looked likely for a while before the no 2 made those disgusting rape comments.

We can quibble about strategy, slag off the establishment, the system and the fascists themselves - even the deluded naivety or hatred of their voters.
Falling out among ourselves is daft beyond belief.

 

[Bakunin]

Christ, if they werent stupid already, the fascists would be laughing themselves stupid to see the divisive bitching in the last few posts.

Surely the results would have been worse without anti fascist campainging, but the campaiging wasnt enough.

I never thought 3 GLA members was achievable but 2 looked likely for a while before the no 2 made those disgusting rape comments.

We can quibble about strategy, slag off the establishment, the system and the fascists themselves - even the deluded naivety or hatred of their voters.
Falling out among ourselves is daft beyond belief.

Agreed.

What we need at the moment is a proper strategy and grassroots campaigning that addresses the issue of precisely why some folk vote for the BNP and their ilk.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Agreed.

What we need at the moment is a proper strategy and grassroots campaigning that addresses the issue of precisely why some folk vote for the BNP and their ilk.

Heres the nub: as I said on another thread the "left" (broad use of term) dont do enough of what a Libdem councillor friend of mine calls the "drains and dogshit" issues.

As a Green candidate who has run Labour close in a largely working class ward I can testify this can be done. But too often it aint.

2 problems with this

1) Why would an anti BNP coalition go round sorting out individual housing problems, giving legal advice etc.? Its possible, but Im not sure its been done in the past.

2) As the big parties know, they can exploit fascism by saying "vote for us cos fascists will win if you dont" when it is their neglect that gave fascists a chance in the first place.

That is to say that a good Green, IWCA, Respect etc. campaign could split the anti-fascist votes in wards.

At a London list level or EU level (both PR) it is different - we can also get as many voters out as possible to vote for any of the broad range of parties that are non fascist.

 

[PaulOK]

Is that an educated guess or something youve seen strong evidence for? Thanks for the tip in any case.

I agree with ButchersApron. With the anti-War movement effectively over and the Respect/Left List electorial project a busted flush, the SWP only have two possible outlets for their considerable energy: An upturn in the "industrial struggle" or anti-fascism. I'd go for anti-fascism, however, they will replicate the tactics of the 70's not knowing and/or not caring that times have changed and those tactics no longer apply.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Christ, if they werent stupid already, the fascists would be laughing themselves stupid to see the divisive bitching in the last few posts.

Surely the results would have been worse without anti fascist campainging, but the campaiging wasnt enough.

I never thought 3 GLA members was achievable but 2 looked likely for a while before the no 2 made those disgusting rape comments.

We can quibble about strategy, slag off the establishment, the system and the fascists themselves - even the deluded naivety or hatred of their voters.
Falling out among ourselves is daft beyond belief.

Relax. There is 'no falling out among ourselves' involved. There is one type of anti-fascism that is pro-working class and there is the other 'anti-fascism' that is pro-establishment. That is the dividing line.

ps The unxepected 40% plus turnout had more to do with them missing out on the second seat than anything else.

 

[treelover]

Yeah, a return of the lollipops!

 

[Bakunin]

I agree with ButchersApron. With the anti-War movement effectively over and the Respect/Left List electorial project a busted flush, the SWP only have two possible outlets for their considerable energy: An upturn in the "industrial struggle" or anti-fascism. I'd go for anti-fascism, however, they will replicate the tactics of the 70's not knowing and/or not caring that times have changed and those tactics no longer apply.

Well, as an upturn in the industrial struggle seems unlikely, and the SWP seem to have neither the resources nor the numbers to actually force one into existence, then anti-fascism seems like the most obvious move for them.

Regarding replicating the tactics of the 1970's, which I'd agree will need to either be junked entirely or readjusted drastically, not to do so would be like the SWP CC admitting they are wrong. Which is at best highly unlikely.

 

[audiotech]

Amazing. Truly amazing. The largest ever BNP vote in London, someone elected to the assemby - despite this ahem 'largest anti-fascist campaign ever seen in London' and you proclaim it a success with the fig-leaf of 'if it wasn't for us it would have been worse'. This based soley on there being an increased turnout - an increased turnout that i suspect had far more to with the closeness of the Johnson/Livingstone battle than this 'campaign'.

Ah, excellent you have the national figures for this year do you? Post them up please to demonstrate that in most areas the BNP vote was down rather thna few cherry-picked areas withiout mentioning areas in which they did well or their vote went up.

You're wrong about it being down the previous year btw - it was the largest ever vote for a far-right party in this country as even your beloved UAF admit - the drop of a few % points in national average more than being made up for by the rise in total vote.

Maybe we should have a special thread where people like MC5 can just post feel good propoganda?

What's an ultra btw?

Those who do fuck all apart from pontificate from the side-lines.

It definately would have been worse if it wasn't for those hundreds of anti fascists who turned out to campaign against the BNP. If the turnout had been around 49 percent then it is likely that there would be no BNP in the GLA. But there is and I'm not going to panic and think there will be a fascist government anytime soon (that's not directed at your good self btw , but rather at those those who are blinded rabbit like by the BNP's headlights).

My local area has seen the vote for the BNP stall to a static level. Amongst the results there are areas, where they did well the last time, in which the vote for the BNP has fallen. I will analyse further these and the rest of the country all in good time.

 

[treelover]

If the SWP pursue the old failed tactics and they will as they have no other real avenues, it will be a disaster.

 

[butchersapron]

Hari summary

BNP is a protest vote, people want to tell politicians to fuck off. So:

1) End no platform and expose the nasty people behind the BNP and the vote will crumble.

a) No platform effectively doesn’t exist b) They’ve been exposed countless times. People don’t care. Tactics that have already failed.

2) Point out lies/expose false claims

See above

3) Immigration is harming those at the bottom end of the scale - make changes so they don’t suffer.

Absolutely - but to whose agenda are these changes to be made? And by who? The state? Local communities? What is the big aim?

4) Limp reluctant critique of official multi-culturalism as encouraging social/cultural (read racial) division

Needs beefing up, but entirely correct that this is a real on-the-ground problem - in immediate terms this helps feed all the other problems

5) Middle class people to stop being anxious about their status and calling people chavs to shore up their own crumbling sense of self-identity

Based on partial understanding of BNP appeal and vote. ‘Chavs’ already know Hari’s mates don’t like people like them, whether they chose to articulate that in terms like ‘chav’ or ‘proletarian youth’.

To what end is this aimed? What is Hari after?

 

[Bakunin]

Yeah, a return of the lollipops!

ANL Mark Three, anyone?

 

[audiotech]

This is the biggest fascist triumph ever - never mind the fucking 30's when they only had a couple of councillors. And your congratulating yourselves - on the grounds that it could have been worse!

This is worse than stupidity this is betrayal.

The drive to war, the Labour party's slavish following of neo liberal policy and ignoring their core supporters in a rush to win over the middle class has primarly led to this situation.

This has given the opportunity for the BNP to set the agenda, it's having to live with that reality, that has witnessed anti-fascism on the back foot.

 

[JTG]

I agree with ButchersApron. With the anti-War movement effectively over and the Respect/Left List electorial project a busted flush, the SWP only have two possible outlets for their considerable energy: An upturn in the "industrial struggle" or anti-fascism. I'd go for anti-fascism, however, they will replicate the tactics of the 70's not knowing and/or not caring that times have changed and those tactics no longer apply.

I'd rather they didn't given how utterly unhelpful they are with everything else they touch

 

[audiotech]

More than one, to me for the last 15 years it has been liberal england's dirty little secret: i remember a college student i knew saying, 'i am taking my dad down to the market to laugh at the freaks', on another occasion, another girl I knew vaguely (now a doctor!), visibly winced and said 'Ooh, he touched me', when one of the 'poor' brushed her arm, its deeper than you think. Ironically, both these women were impeccably right on and anti-racist, tbh, it stinks

I heard one middle class student in the nineties refer to a black student as a 'nigger' openly and unashamedly in a bar I was working at the time. I barred the twat. What did you do?

 

[audiotech]

Which begs the question, what are those who form 'official' anti-racism going to do about it? Admitting that, so far, their strategy has failed would be a start. Then, finding a new strategy that actually works would be nice.

The 'official' anti-racism with it's links to the Labour party leadership was alway's going to be a strategy with limited appeal in the present climate.

 

[Xipe Totec]

I think we should run a cost-benefit comparison of enfranchising the poor vs. denying them the vote and run with whatever comes out top.


[Full disclosure: middle class snob perspective]

 

[butchersapron]

The 'official' anti-racism with it's links to the Labour party leadership was alway's going to be a strategy with limited appeal in the present climate.

Not 90 minutes ago you claimed that this 'official' anti-racism had produced 'The largest anti-fascist campaign ever seen in London' and successfully blocked the BNP. Now it has 'limited appeal.

 

[Bakunin]

The 'official' anti-racism with it's links to the Labour party leadership was alway's going to be a strategy with limited appeal in the present climate.

So find something with mass appeal, and I don't mean the UAF and Searchlight and so on either.

Find something that WORKS.

 

[audiotech]

Not 90 minutes ago you claimed that this 'official' anti-racism had produced 'The largest anti-fascist campaign ever seen in London' and successfully blocked the BNP. Now it has 'limited appeal.

London has seen the largest anti-fascist campaign in history.

However, it hasn't sucessfully blocked the BNP (I never said it had ), but it has limited the BNP's impact to some degree.

My point is that for any anti-fascist campaign to become successful, then it would need to go beyond that.

 

[audiotech]

So find something with mass appeal, and I don't mean the UAF and Searchlight and so on either.

Find something that WORKS.

For a mass appeal I would mobilise the masses.

 

[Joe Reilly]

The drive to war, the Labour party's slavish following of neo liberal policy and ignoring their core supporters in a rush to win over the middle class has primarly led to this situation.

This has given the opportunity for the BNP to set the agenda, it's having to live with that reality, that has witnessed anti-fascism on the back foot.

And who does the likes of the UAF/Hope against Hate/SWP etc continue to have greatest political sympathy with if not Labour?

 

[TremulousTetra]

Going back to the article, what no platform policy beyond student unions has existed for the last 10 years anyway? They can pretty much hold a meeting wherever and when they want - and even use that no platform policy to gain publicity as at Oxford. What use if a no platform policy that can't be imposed? How will removing something that doesn't exist help?

I think that is a good point. and why has the no platform policy not been imposed?

 

[audiotech]

And who does the likes of the UAF/Hope against Hate/SWP etc continue to have greatest political sympathy with if not Labour?

The SWP have sympathy with Labour? Really? I'm not even sure that Searchlight has these days tbh?

But let's face, in the present climate, the only people who are likely to come out and seriously campaign against the BNP (apart from trots and Antifa) are Labour party members and trade unionists, most of whom I suspect are totally exasperated to the extreme with, first New Labour and now Gordon Brown's premiership.

 

[Bakunin]

The SWP have sympathy with Labour? Really? I'm not even sure that Searchlight has these days tbh?

But let's face, in the present climate, the only people who are likely to come out and campaign against the BNP are Labour party members and trade unionists, most of whom I suspect are totally exasperated to the extreme with first New Labour and now Gordon Brown's premiership.

Funny, last time I went leafleting against the BNP there were all sorts of folk out, not just Labour Party members and trade unionists either. ANd you seem to be forgetting Anarchists and unaligned activists and anti-fascists as well. And I'd far rather work with Antifa than with any SWP front any time.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

The SWP have sympathy with Labour? Really? I'm not even sure that Searchlight has these days tbh?

But let's face, in the present climate, the only people who are likely to come out and seriously campaign against the BNP (apart from trots and Antifa) are Labour party members and trade unionists, most of whom I suspect are totally exasperated to the extreme with, first New Labour and now Gordon Brown's premiership.

1) I have heard an SWP candidate endorse Labour at the last GE.

2) Plenty of anarchists, greens, liberals and non aligneds campaign against the BNP.

 

[audiotech]

Funny, last time I went leafleting against the BNP there were all sorts of folk out, not just Labour Party members and trade unionists either. ANd you seem to be forgetting Anarchists and unaligned activists and anti-fascists as well. And I'd far rather work with Antifa than with any SWP front any time.

That is your choice.

I did edit my post to include Anarchists and others.

 

[cockneyrebel]

I think butchersapron is right that a strategy of no platform hasn't been implemented on any real scale for years. The only non-student example I can think of is when Le Pen came to Manchester. So in saying "drop no platform" Hari is making a bit of a non-point. Indeed the BNP openly hold stalls and meetings in many places, like Barking and Dagenham. Interestingly one of the few opportunities to implement no platform was about a year or so back when the BNP held an open air meeting with the present BNP GLA member speaking. The BNP numbered about 80-100 and the anti-fascists about 400-500. There were also hardly any police about. But the SWP/UAF stewards actually stopped people from having a confrontation.....

However just because something isn't happening, doesn't mean that it would be wrong to do so. Fair enough no platform in and of itself won't stop the BNP, but I don't think that means it should be dropped entirely. Also no platform doesn't just mean turning over stalls or breaking up meetings. It's also about trade union membership mobilising and doing things like refusing to work with BNP councillors and BNP GLA assembly members. Again this isn't happening at all at the moment, but would anyone argue it was a bad thing if it did?

Lastly I'd like to hear people like butchers put forward a positive alternative, rather than just criticising easy targets on the far left. Indeed the organisation you have said positive things about, the IWCA, have just lost 2 of their 3 seats to New Labour. So not only have they failed to spread their method to other areas in the last few years, they have now just lost 2 seats in the place they do have a base. So what ideas have you got about how to go forward?

Oh, come off it! Have you really never heard of the parts of London where the rich live?

Bromley is just a suburban borough. Like other suburban boroughs, it'll have middle class areas and working class areas, however you choose to place the dividing line between those two categories. Most people in the borough are working class by any reasonable definition and I would have thought that you, a Trot of some sort, would agree.

One thing that that part of London has in common with outer east London is that over the years a lot of people - mainly white people - have moved out from inner London. The moves have been for a variety of reasons, but one is large-scale immigration. Many people who have moved to 'Kent' and 'Essex' (often, in fact, parts of outer London boroughs) are 'white-flighters'. They will tend to be sympathetic to parties that oppose immigration.

I know Bromley area very well and it isn't just any suburban borough. It is one of the richest suburban boroughs around (if not the richest). It has a huge middle class and "working class done good", far more than other boroughs. It isn't just like any other suburban borough.

 

[audiotech]

1) I have heard an SWP candidate endorse Labour at the last GE.

2) Plenty of anarchists, greens, liberals and non aligneds campaign against the BNP.

Yes, I accept that.

SWP candidate at the last general Election? I don't think the SWP stood a candidate in 1997 did they? No doubt a typo eh?

However, SWP endorsing New Labour? I doubt it? Were they expelled?

 

[durruti02]

On the other hand, maybe the snobby section of the white middle class that Hari is complaining about is the very same social group that has spent years promoting multikulti divisiveness - and this is no mere coincidence. Indeed, maybe some of the multikulti ideology is even inspired by a contempt for English plebs. (I can think of one rather 'PC' social worker who in his cups admitted that the English were the one group of people he dislikes.)

agree