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Government wants to replace short-haul flights with rail

sod the ozone layer

With utter maliciousness, I hope that somewhere in the world you have a family member whose life is made quantifiably worse by climate change in the future. Perhaps then you'll look back and realise that your utterly wank attitude wasn't the best way forward.
 
BMI today to Glasgow.

Travel to heathrow: £15 (cheaper on the tube though)
Return flight (out at 08.40, back at 19.30): £302
Taxes, fees and charges: £40.60
Travel from Glasgow Airport: Dunno, lets say £5.

All told around £360

Rail

Bus to Euston: £1
Return: £108.80 (off peak anytime)
Travel from Glasgow central: Probably nothing, it's in the middle of Glasgow.

All told around £110

Can also take luggage with you free on a train, which is nice.


And for those who would rather pay the premium for a quick flight, rather than the seven hour train ride?
 
With utter maliciousness, I hope that somewhere in the world you have a family member whose life is made quantifiably worse by climate change in the future. Perhaps then you'll look back and realise that your utterly wank attitude wasn't the best way forward.

Until India, the US and China stops pumping crap into the atmsophere, some of which no doubt made the computer that you are using now - then I (and I know the post wasn't directed at me), couldn't give a shit, as long as I can go to Ibiza for £50.

We are all going to die. Being Green is like some new religon for some.
 
And for those who would rather pay the premium for a quick flight, rather than the seven hour train ride?

4 1/2 hour train ride... Obviously still quicker to fly, but 1 1/2 hr flight, plus check in time and travel each end and it doesn't look so much better for the extra £250.
 
And for those who would rather pay the premium for a quick flight, rather than the seven hour train ride?

7 hours? 4 is more like it.

i used to travel glasgow to london on the 12.51 and be in euston at 5. £30 first class advance too! free food and booze!
 
4 1/2 hour train ride... Obviously still quicker to fly, but 1 1/2 hr flight, plus check in time and travel each end and it doesn't look so much better for the extra £250.

When the train works.

National Express have completly ballsed up the East Coat franchise.

Frequent cancellations and delays, beacuse it's cheaper for them to just throw in the towel when it starts to go a bit wrong beacuse, thanks to Tories and priviatsing the railways, when it comes to compensation - the rules are in the train operators favour.

Least planes work and leave when they say and if they don't you get a full refund and a hotel room.
 
Not with the proposed high speed line it wouldn't. You'd be looking at around 2h 45m with an 'ordinary' high speed 186mph service, or just over 2 hours with the proposed 250mph trains.

Who's going to pay to build it and how long's it going to take? The "save the wiltdown bog pansy" brigade will stuff the planning process for years so even if anyone comes up with the capital, it's going to take decades to overcome the rampant nimbyism that'll result from having to build a load of new train lines across someone's paddock/swamp.

Petty about having to get to Heathrow in the first place, and actually having to get through what is widely regarded as the worst and most unpleasant airport in the world before you reach the BMI lounge. Which more than cancels out any quality time you might enjoy in the 15-odd minutes you get to spend in the lounge.

It took me 12 minutes from Heathrow Express platform to 12 year old Malt the last time I did it (week before last), mind you it was almost 20 minutes the week before - almost as long as the queue for a bottle of water in M&S at Kings Cross.

Regarding the environmental and financial cost of building a HSL, yes there would be some but it would be recouped by a reduction in domestic flights. In any case, our friends at BAA claim we must expand Heathrow even more if the number of flights aren't cut, which would cause more than its fair share of environmental and financial cost.

So since it seems we're going to have to spend money and cause pollution either way, we might as well go for the high speed train option, being the more logical, passenger friendlier and long term environmentally greener solution. And BAA can go fuck itself with its third runway and sixth terminal.

At least you agree that building a High speed rail line will generate CO2 (plant food). How much?

This is necessary so that one can work out how many decades or centuries it will take for the new eco-friendly mode of transport to work off its initial environmental impact.

Has anyone actually carried out any studies to see what proportion of air passengers would swap over to such a service? Maybe that's why nobody's ever come up with a plan - it's just not an investible option.
 
Cobbles... A study has been done alright. It was a very realistic simulation of a high speed line competing with air. The findings were that 75% of passengers used the rail service.

The 'study' is called Eurostar ;)
 
When the train works.

National Express have completly ballsed up the East Coat franchise.

Frequent cancellations and delays, beacuse it's cheaper for them to just throw in the towel when it starts to go a bit wrong beacuse, thanks to Tories and priviatsing the railways, when it comes to compensation - the rules are in the train operators favour.

Least planes work and leave when they say and if they don't you get a full refund and a hotel room.

It was pretty good when it was GNER imo. Problem is NXEC fucked up, not that there's anything inherently wrong with the ECML
 
Be more organised, stop expecting everything to handed to you on a plate. I don't mind though, it subsidises those of us who do think ahead. Again, it isn't a month - very cheap fares a month in advance, cheaper fares up to a week (and often a few days if you travel at certain times).

Where are you finding these cheaper deals?
I use thetrainline and am finding even looking 3 months in advance with the advanced single fee and using it on a bank holiday weekend where there is additional reductions. Two prebooked singles under these conditions was £52 total, £59 for the return booked the day before, not on a bank holiday weekend. If it was just booking two single tickets in advance as per the websites advice and not on a bank holiday weekend, it actually worked out more expensive than simply buying a return ticket the day before, as it was at £45 each way.
 
Cobbles... A study has been done alright. It was a very realistic simulation of a high speed line competing with air. The findings were that 75% of passengers used the rail service.

The 'study' is called Eurostar ;)

I learnt BSL for Eurostar at the weekend :)
 
Until India, the US and China stops pumping crap into the atmsophere, some of which no doubt made the computer that you are using now - then I (and I know the post wasn't directed at me), couldn't give a shit, as long as I can go to Ibiza for £50.

We are all going to die. Being Green is like some new religon for some.

Since when should the activities of a developing country dictate our infrastructure projects?
 
It was pretty good when it was GNER imo. Problem is NXEC fucked up, not that there's anything inherently wrong with the ECML

Why did GNER lose it then?

Whatever the reason - GNER being too brilliant or not paying enough to the treasury, means that hiving off our rail network to private contractors doesn't work. NXEC just gave up as it was losing them money.

Look at Metronet. Another great example of the new age of rail renewal.

And people on here are suggesting a new network of high speed rail lines is a good thing?
 
Why did GNER lose it then?

Whatever the reason - GNER being too brilliant or not paying enough to the treasury, means that hiving off our rail network to private contractors doesn't work. NXEC just gave up as it was losing them money.

Look at Metronet. Another great example of the new age of rail renewal.

And people on here are suggesting a new network of high speed rail lines is a good thing?

PPP/PFI is the problem not railways per se

e2a: GNER lost it cos Sea Containers were going broke iirc
 
Be more organised, stop expecting everything to handed to you on a plate. I don't mind though, it subsidises those of us who do think ahead. Again, it isn't a month - very cheap fares a month in advance, cheaper fares up to a week (and often a few days if you travel at certain times).

You're quite right about making fair cost comparisons between rail and air. People do seem to deliberately forget that booking ahead can save you money on the trains in the same way as the airlines - and there is an annoying habit of comparing advance booked air fares with walk-up rail fares.


However - I do feel quite strongly that as a matter of principle, walk-up rail fares should be affordable. It is more and more the case that when, for example, the government is challenged about the cost of rail travel, they point to the advance fares as examples to say that it is not expensive.

This I find unacceptable because rail isn't just competing with air, but with the private car. I am completely in favour of eliminating domestic air travel where there is a rail alternative, but I actually think that reducing car dependancy is probably more important. The benefits of that are not just environmental but social.

Therefore - if we are to agree that reducing car dependancy is a worthwhile aim (sadly current transport policy doesn't convince me that this is a priority for the government) - it is essential that the cost of rail travel is comparable to the cost of going by car. This is where the principle of walk-up fares comes in because if you are going by car you don't have to plan the exact time you travel a month in advance. You might decide you are going on a certain day, a couple of weeks beforehand, but you don't commit yourself to a particular time (or even a particular route). Advance rail tickets, on the other hand, don't allow you this flexibility - and it is that flexibility that inevitably makes many people choose to travel by car instead of public transport, especially when the cost is less, or equivalent.

People are saying it's unreasonable to expect to be able to go to Glasgow at a day's notice. I disagree. Car drivers have this option, but anyone dependant on public transport doesn't. It's not often that I decide to do a long journey that spontaneously - but that's not really the point. It might be that I want to travel up on a Friday afternoon, and I don't know what time I will get away from work until the day. If I have to book in advance, I will have to book the latest train of the day just in case I can't get away till then. Then I might be done with work early and am then sat around waiting pointlessly for several hours. My counterpart in the car-owner's parallel universe, meanwhile, has set off when it suited him.

Or - and this is something I do quite often - I have spent a week in the north of Scotland and I have a ticket back to London, but I want to stop off in Glasgow to see some friends there. But I want to be able to change my plans at the last minute because if the weather is amazing I might stay up north for an extra day, or if it's crap I'll decide to head south a bit earlier and have more time in Glasgow. None of this is life-critical stuff but the point is that it is a significant factor in many people's decisions about which mode of transport to use.

I don't expect total freedom - I understand the reasons for making peak time travel more expensive - I just think it's reasonable to expect to be able to walk up, on the day, and buy a ticket that lets you choose between several different trains without penalty, and which is priced at a level that means it is at the very most, equivalent to one person making that journey by car. (Ideally, it should be equivalent to the cost per person of three or four people travelling by car, because it is that point at which the energy efficiency of each mode of transport starts to become similar).

This includes being offered a ticket which allows me to easily understand which services it is and isn't valid on. This is not the case at the moment, despite the "simpler fares" propaganda we have been given recently but is largely a failure (I have ranted at length about this on here before - and a recent parliamentary committee agrees with me).


On the wider issue of High Speed Rail vs. investment in local and medium-distance public transport; I'm inclined to agree with the other comments on this thread that the latter is possibly more important. It would be nice to have both of course, but improving local bus services and reconnecting station-less towns seem to offer the greater benefit. There are very few domestic journeys which really need to be done by air so I'd rather tax the majority of domestic flights out of existence and spend the money on transport improvements that will benefit those at the bottom of the pile, before embarking on HS projects that will shave 30 mins of a journey here and there. As far as I'm concerned there's really no justification for flying from London to Edinburgh/Glasgow or anything shorter than that at the moment - whether there's an HSR alternative or not.
 
When the train works.

National Express have completly ballsed up the East Coat franchise.

Frequent cancellations and delays, beacuse it's cheaper for them to just throw in the towel when it starts to go a bit wrong beacuse, thanks to Tories and priviatsing the railways, when it comes to compensation - the rules are in the train operators favour.

Least planes work and leave when they say and if they don't you get a full refund and a hotel room.
even with ryanair etc? easyjet cancelled my flight ocne and just booked me on the next one, no compensation.

if an intercity train is delayed for 30 mins or more you are entitled to a partial refund http://www.nationalexpresseastcoast.com/About-us/Passengers-Charter1/Delay-Repay/

87% on time at the minute on the east coast: http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-...ne-among-the-worst-in-country-61634-23723273/
 
Where are you finding these cheaper deals?
I use thetrainline and am finding even looking 3 months in advance with the advanced single fee and using it on a bank holiday weekend where there is additional reductions. Two prebooked singles under these conditions was £52 total, £59 for the return booked the day before, not on a bank holiday weekend. If it was just booking two single tickets in advance as per the websites advice and not on a bank holiday weekend, it actually worked out more expensive than simply buying a return ticket the day before, as it was at £45 each way.

That was singles (the aircraft people were using singles, so compared like with like). The standard anytime return fare is £108.80, so pre-booked singles tend to work out cheaper than that but still more than £59 (unless you're clever with travel times). I just use the National rail site.
 
Why did GNER lose it then?

Whatever the reason - GNER being too brilliant or not paying enough to the treasury, means that hiving off our rail network to private contractors doesn't work. NXEC just gave up as it was losing them money.

Look at Metronet. Another great example of the new age of rail renewal.

And people on here are suggesting a new network of high speed rail lines is a good thing?

i think you're being massively disingenuous with this post - you've been around here long enough to know the contempt people on this website hold rail privatisation in, not to mention PPP/PPI as a whole approach to public sector investment, so sorry, not buying your whine here.
 
Since when should the activities of a developing country dictate our infrastructure projects?

If the major industrial countries don't give a shit about C02 emissions, then why should I care about a £50 flight to Ibiza that has a almost non existent contribution to CO2 output?

Also, before getting on your high horse, I would like to know where and how you computer that you are using was produced?

Can you not be saving some emissions, by not using it?
 
Where are you finding these cheaper deals?
I use thetrainline and am finding even looking 3 months in advance with the advanced single fee and using it on a bank holiday weekend where there is additional reductions. Two prebooked singles under these conditions was £52 total, £59 for the return booked the day before, not on a bank holiday weekend. If it was just booking two single tickets in advance as per the websites advice and not on a bank holiday weekend, it actually worked out more expensive than simply buying a return ticket the day before, as it was at £45 each way.


cheap tickets are normally released about 10 weeks before. eg. NXEC is up to october 25th at the minute.

i booked a single from nottingham to london about a month in advance-£9!
 
i think you're being massively disingenuous with this post - you've been around here long enough to know the contempt people on this website hold rail privatisation in, not to mention PPP/PPI as a whole approach to public sector investment, so sorry, not buying your whine here.

I think we are going off on wildly different tangents here.

I thought the orignal topic was CO2 emissons?

At the moment, sod the enviorment, but planes are better than trains.
 
If the major industrial countries don't give a shit about C02 emissions, then why should I care about a £50 flight to Ibiza that has a almost non existent contribution to CO2 output?

Also, before getting on your high horse, I would like to know where and how you computer that you are using was produced?

Can you not be saving some emissions, by not using it?

Because you're the person responsible for your own energy use.

This whole 'Well blah blah doesn't care, so why should I' stuff is the kind of reply a child makes when told it has to do something grown-ups don't.

Well here's a newsflash - I'd like to keep air travel as an option for when it's really handy and convenient - like travelling to the other side of the globe. Not flying 150 miles up the fucking road.
 
Why did GNER lose it then?

Whatever the reason - GNER being too brilliant or not paying enough to the treasury, means that hiving off our rail network to private contractors doesn't work. NXEC just gave up as it was losing them money.

Look at Metronet. Another great example of the new age of rail renewal.

And people on here are suggesting a new network of high speed rail lines is a good thing?

GNER and NXEC suffered from the same problem - promising to pay too much for the franchise, which they could not do and so went bust. As for Metronet, the problems with that were because of the ludicrous PPP process, and not because rail renewal is a bad idea (though what Metronet has to do with new high speed lines is beyond me).
 
This includes being offered a ticket which allows me to easily understand which services it is and isn't valid on.

And doing away with the stupidity like that which happened to us at the weekend - 5 people going to Brighton from London Bridge, 2 had to go by FCC, 3 by Southern as that's what our tickets were valid on. Daft.
 
We are all going to die. Being Green is like some new religon for some.

If you are lucky, you'll die before the effects of climate change start to significantly affect your life. After that, millions of other people will also die, but many of them at the end of lives blighted by hunger, disease and loss of their homes, as a direct result of the actions and laziness of those of us alive right now.

The logical continuation of your attitude - assuming the aim is to maintain our current lifestyles but also ensure that climate change does not result in considerable suffering - is that we should just nuke the whole planet at some point in the next fifty years or so.
 
If the major industrial countries don't give a shit about C02 emissions, then why should I care about a £50 flight to Ibiza that has a almost non existent contribution to CO2 output?

Also, before getting on your high horse, I would like to know where and how you computer that you are using was produced?

Can you not be saving some emissions, by not using it?

I'm not asking you to start caring about anything and there are a whole load of things I could do to reduce my carbon footprint.

But I don't think your points are very relevant when discussing additional investment in rail.
 
The standard anytime return fare is £108.80,

In the interests of accuracy/pedantry, that is the off-peak return fare (previously "Saver Return") - not the anytime return fare (which is about £270).

However, for most leisure journeys, that off-peak ticket offers a perfectly adequate degree of flexibility.
 
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