Government wants to replace short-haul flights with rail
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I must say I vastly prefer rail travel to plane travel.
I'm not a trainspotter in any way, shape or form, but (therefore I must be a closet one
) I do think trains are the best form of transport ever invented. Whether it's whizzing from central London to central newcastle in 3 hours (it would take more than that by plane when you'd have to trek to Stansted, hang around for the planet, then get the Metro etc), or just sitting on a train in china for 28 hours drinking beer, admiring the scenery, eating sunflower seeds, impressing people with your Mandarin and eating pot noodles (the good kind you get in China), they simply are.
I think what happened to rail travel in this country is pretty disgusting really...
It's saying something when you have to choose to fly to save dosh...
I'm not a trainspotter in any way, shape or form, but (therefore I must be a closet one
) I do think trains are the best form of transport ever invented. Whether it's whizzing from central London to central newcastle in 3 hours (it would take more than that by plane when you'd have to trek to Stansted, hang around for the planet, then get the Metro etc), or just sitting on a train in china for 28 hours drinking beer, admiring the scenery, eating sunflower seeds, impressing people with your Mandarin and eating pot noodles (the good kind you get in China), they simply are.I think what happened to rail travel in this country is pretty disgusting really...
It's saying something when you have to choose to fly to save dosh...
Cid
Proper break this time
How often do you suddenly need to go from London to Glasgow at a day's notice though? Book a month in advance and the train fair is £43.50, you could even go 1st class for £52... That's before you factor in that for most people it's considerably cheaper and quicker to get to Euston (and from Glasgow Central) than Gatwick and Glasgow Airport. Plus there are railcards that can reduce it further, as well as the other advantages of rail.
Oswaldtwistle
Banned
Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I still think this type of money would be better invested in local bus services and commuter rail.
As for internal flights, well either
a)tax them heavily. Currently someone travelling by car from London to Edinbourgh and back would pay approx 30 quid in fuel tax each way, but only 12 each way in air passenger duty. Why not make the duty nearer £50 each way?
or b) just ban 'em. A bit authoritarian perhaps, but lots of things are banned- why not this?
As for internal flights, well either
a)tax them heavily. Currently someone travelling by car from London to Edinbourgh and back would pay approx 30 quid in fuel tax each way, but only 12 each way in air passenger duty. Why not make the duty nearer £50 each way?
or b) just ban 'em. A bit authoritarian perhaps, but lots of things are banned- why not this?
How often is it possible to book a month in advance in terms of planning etc? You might have something sudden to attend.
London to Glasgow is not actually very far. FFS. In China you can turn up the day before a journey and book a train journey of a comparable distance for about 30-50 RMB (3-5 quid, or even less if the pound returns to what it was). Now, I know average salaries are considerably less, but even if we're thinking proportional to the very poor people's salaries, that's still only 30-50 quid.
I think it's hilarious how people think that's some kind of long distance
If fares were cheap here i'd be bombing round the country by train all the time.
ethel
Well-Known Member
that's not comparing like with like though is it?
those are inflexible train tickets and a pretty flesible single ticket. a fixed time ticket is much less.
i checked the bmi prices for tomrorow and only flesible tickets at £212 are aviailable....
it's £27 return to stansted and about £6 and an hour from prestwick to glasgow.
i missed the 9 o'clock train from london to edinburgh a few months ago and my friends made it, i needed to get to edinburgh by 2 (when they were arriving).
i woke up at 8.20 and i should've left the house at 8 to get to kings cross. i booked a flight online and was out of the house by 9, i had to get a taxi to stansted to make sure that i made the flight.
by the time i got to edinburgh waverley, all hot and sweaty from running about, my friends had been waiting for me for about an hour.
plane=EPIC FAIL.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I'm with this option, as I've stated a few times. That or limit the type of aircraft to prop planes, which I understand aren't as polluting as jets (and give the flight a wonderful feel IMO, based on the 8 tips I've made on prop planes).
Cid
Proper break this time
How often is it possible to book a month in advance in terms of planning etc? You might have something sudden to attend.
You might, but when was the last time you had to go to Glasgow at a day's notice?
I used to travel by rail pretty regularly and don't think I ever booked anything except advanced tickets... Can you really not plan your life a month in advance? it's actually under a month anyway, and booking less than a week in advance you can usually still find better prices.
Yes I think an essential part of it would be baggage checkin at the station - currently for Air France, Lufthansa and other airlines using the Thalys trains I think you drop your bag off at the station and they attach the labels etc there and then next time you see it is at the final destination. Obviously this would require a checkin facility to be established at the railway stations.
I may be wrong but I have a feeling that this service currently is / used to be available at Victoria for BA flights and is currently available at Paddington for Heathrow Express ?
PacificOcean
Unhinged User
Who is paying for all these new high speed lines and how long will it take?
We have only just got a bit of a high speed line from Ebbsfleet on the Eurostar almost 20 years on.
As air travel only accounts for 2% of the world's CO2 emmisons, aren't there more pressing areas to crack down on CO2? Like China and India's factories spewing out Nike trainers for the masses?
Cheap air travel is a good thing as it means the lower earners can travel too.
Unless people want to hike air prices up so much, that we return to the days where only the upper class could afford to fly?
There are lot's of green issues that you can fly your flag for, but something that has revouoltionised travel for millions and only spits out 2% of CO2 doesn't seem one of them.
I went to Granada for £47 with easyjet. Is the arguement that I should have paid more for this? How does that help emmisons levels?
We have only just got a bit of a high speed line from Ebbsfleet on the Eurostar almost 20 years on.
As air travel only accounts for 2% of the world's CO2 emmisons, aren't there more pressing areas to crack down on CO2? Like China and India's factories spewing out Nike trainers for the masses?
Cheap air travel is a good thing as it means the lower earners can travel too.
Unless people want to hike air prices up so much, that we return to the days where only the upper class could afford to fly?
There are lot's of green issues that you can fly your flag for, but something that has revouoltionised travel for millions and only spits out 2% of CO2 doesn't seem one of them.
I went to Granada for £47 with easyjet. Is the arguement that I should have paid more for this? How does that help emmisons levels?
PacificOcean
Unhinged User
You might, but when was the last time you had to go to Glasgow at a day's notice?
I used to travel by rail pretty regularly and don't think I ever booked anything except advanced tickets... Can you really not plan your life a month in advance? it's actually under a month anyway, and booking less than a week in advance you can usually still find better prices.
A suddenly ill relative?
FabricLiveBaby!
Live Baby Fabric!
I'd welcome travelling Europe across high speed train. I hate flying. As long as it's cheaper and efficient (ie, no changing trains at 3am in the morning in Berlin) I'd be well up for it.
I highly doubt it will happen.
I highly doubt it will happen.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
A suddenly ill relative?
And that happens how often in your life?
PacificOcean
Unhinged User
A meeting, a friends wedding, just a trip to Glasgow at the last minute.
There are loads of reasons why you could want to go to Glasgow without needing to book a month in advance.
fredfelt
Mostly unknown member
1. Probably cost less than the current 10bn road building program
2. If we gave up on any similar projects that have overrun in the past we'd have fuck all investment in any infrastructure, or any civil projects
3. The figure is much greater than 2% for UK's emmisions - but this is not only about reducing flights, it will give more opportunities for people to get out of their car. TheTGV in France has had massvie economic benefits in terms of trade and communications between major cities.
4. A new train line will not effect your statement - people will still be able to fly. However a new high speed rail link will give everyone more options for travel.
5. Again, a new trail line will not stop people flying
6. Back to that 2% - But as it's released in out into the atmosphers it has a far greater impact on global warming.
7. Hope you enjoyed your holiday to Granada. - this year I'm taking a high speed train down to Bordeaux with my bike. Can't wait. Glad i don't have to fly.
The can't - the fastest journey time is about 4 and a half hours.
Well, if semeone decides to spend a few tens of billions on building the infrastructure (raping god alone knows how many polar bears in the process - gweenies never seem to consider the environmental overdraft any such project accumulates before "CO2 reductions" begin to accrue), then it might be possible to have a 2 and a half hour run to Edinburgh (maybe even with working toilets).
I disagree - the BMI business lounge at Heathrow is a very pleasant spot to while away a quarter hour or so, unlike Kings Cross.
Again, only following the expenditure of a load of money that simply doesn't exist, to build a new route once millions of tons of additional CO2 have been generated to produce all the necessary steel and concrete.
No it's not, it's extremely handy - particularly if you want to get from Beijing to Manchester:
Beijing to LHR - change terminal - LHR to Manchester vs. Beijing to LHR - train to London, tube to another station, train to Manchester - no contest......
You might, but when was the last time you had to go to Glasgow at a day's notice?
I used to travel by rail pretty regularly and don't think I ever booked anything except advanced tickets... Can you really not plan your life a month in advance? it's actually under a month anyway, and booking less than a week in advance you can usually still find better prices.
The point is, it would be nice to jump on a train on a saturday morning and go somewhere nice in the countryside. You just can't do it with the fares like they are. Why should you have to plan a day in the countryside like a military operation?
As Americans say, a 100 years is a long time in the USA, but 100 miles is a long way in Britain
London to Glasgow is the sort of thing americans might do for a commute...
London to Glasgow is the sort of thing americans might do for a commute...
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
I'd want it to happen just to piss morons like Cobbles off...
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Good point, Cid. In theory.
However, what about people who aren't that organised? Not everyone knows a month in advance that they need to travel.
And also, it pre-supposes that everyone has a spare kitty of cash for forward planning. What about people on low incomes who are living month to month or week to week? What about people for whom this week or this month's money is already spoken for, and if they want to travel next week or next month, they pay for that with next week or next month's money?
Yes, you do end up paying more money nearer to departure time, and that further penalises people on low incomes who can't afford the luxury of planning ahead.
I've been in that situation before, having spent three and a half years living on benefits when I couldn't work, knowing that in three or four weeks time I needed to travel somewhere, but that far in advance, my money was going on expenses I incurred at that time, and I didn't have any spare money to tie up on a future train trip.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
But then how would the MPs get to Westminster every week after a weekend in their constituency?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
But then how would the MPs get to Westminster every week after a weekend in their constituency?
How they used to - drive or take the train.
Amazingly, relatively poor people did actually used to travel around the UK before the advent of cheap flying. They also managed to travel abroad too, only it required forward planning and saving to do it.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Not with the proposed high speed line it wouldn't. You'd be looking at around 2h 45m with an 'ordinary' high speed 186mph service, or just over 2 hours with the proposed 250mph trains.
Petty about having to get to Heathrow in the first place, and actually having to get through what is widely regarded as the worst and most unpleasant airport in the world before you reach the BMI lounge. Which more than cancels out any quality time you might enjoy in the 15-odd minutes you get to spend in the lounge.
Regarding the environmental and financial cost of building a HSL, yes there would be some but it would be recouped by a reduction in domestic flights. In any case, our friends at BAA claim we must expand Heathrow even more if the number of flights aren't cut, which would cause more than its fair share of environmental and financial cost.
So since it seems we're going to have to spend money and cause pollution either way, we might as well go for the high speed train option, being the more logical, passenger friendlier and long term environmentally greener solution. And BAA can go fuck itself with its third runway and sixth terminal.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
Exactly!
If I, say, fancied going to north Wales for a weekend, because I read the forecast on a Thursday and it was going to be nice weather, it shouldn't cost an arm and a leg and have loads of inconvenient changes.
You can't book something like that a month in advance. Or you could, but you wouldn't want to, because you wouldn't know what the weather was going to be like, so wouldn't want to book that far in advance.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
Trains run on electrickery. There are many methods to generate electrickery that don't involve fossil fuels.
Planes (so far) only fly by burning fossil fuels. If someone comes up with a sunflower oil substitute that doesn't mean we have to chop down acres of forest to grow, great. If not, once the fuel runs out, planes will be fucked.
Therefore, as a long term investment in mass transit, trains are the better option. Insofar as they'll still be able to move when the oil runs out.
Planes (so far) only fly by burning fossil fuels. If someone comes up with a sunflower oil substitute that doesn't mean we have to chop down acres of forest to grow, great. If not, once the fuel runs out, planes will be fucked.
Therefore, as a long term investment in mass transit, trains are the better option. Insofar as they'll still be able to move when the oil runs out.
AnnO'Neemus
Is so vanilla
The last time I had to make a journey by train, I needed to get from Manchester to Cambridge.
There's no direct line, so I had to go down to London, catch a tube to a different station, then catch another train.
On the way back, I wanted to avoid going through London, so decided to take the route involving I think it was three or four trains. One of the trains was running late, so I missed a connection, so I ended up taking four or five trains, basically an extra train.
And it took about five and a half hours. Five and a half hours, to get from Cambridge to Manchester. Ridiculous! It's not as though I was trying to travel from sticksville to sticksville, Buxton to Ely or something, I was travelling from the nation's third city to another well-known large-ish city.
If you can't get from one major UK city to another major UK city without several changes (one might be tolerable) in this day and age, the prospects for train travel are hopeless.
If I was making that journey again (and I'm likely to, a friend now lives in Cambridge, and my daughters in-laws are from there) then I'd hire a car, or possibly buy a car. If there was one of those tiny plane intercity flights between Manchester-Cambridge, then I'd take that over the train journey, no hesitation, sod the ozone layer.
There's no direct line, so I had to go down to London, catch a tube to a different station, then catch another train.
On the way back, I wanted to avoid going through London, so decided to take the route involving I think it was three or four trains. One of the trains was running late, so I missed a connection, so I ended up taking four or five trains, basically an extra train.
And it took about five and a half hours. Five and a half hours, to get from Cambridge to Manchester. Ridiculous! It's not as though I was trying to travel from sticksville to sticksville, Buxton to Ely or something, I was travelling from the nation's third city to another well-known large-ish city.
If you can't get from one major UK city to another major UK city without several changes (one might be tolerable) in this day and age, the prospects for train travel are hopeless.
If I was making that journey again (and I'm likely to, a friend now lives in Cambridge, and my daughters in-laws are from there) then I'd hire a car, or possibly buy a car. If there was one of those tiny plane intercity flights between Manchester-Cambridge, then I'd take that over the train journey, no hesitation, sod the ozone layer.
PacificOcean
Unhinged User
High speed lines are pie in the sky as far as this country is concerned.
Like I said before, it's taken us 20 years to build a short bit of high speed line from Kent to St Pancras and it has cost billions.
All planes need are a short runway to take off and another one to land.
How grand the terminal building is has no bearing on the plane getting from A to B.
As a train anorak myself, I would love the return to the pre-Beeching days were empty trains rattled between loney stations with no passengers.
However, that was a 100 years ago..
Now we have planes.
Like I said before, it's taken us 20 years to build a short bit of high speed line from Kent to St Pancras and it has cost billions.
All planes need are a short runway to take off and another one to land.
How grand the terminal building is has no bearing on the plane getting from A to B.
As a train anorak myself, I would love the return to the pre-Beeching days were empty trains rattled between loney stations with no passengers.
However, that was a 100 years ago..
Now we have planes.
Cid
Proper break this time
How many of your friends have invited you to a wedding at the last minute? Meetings, yeah, for some types of business obviously that's a problem, I'm not saying rail is always cheaper for everyone, just that the cost benefits vs air travel are usually exaggerated. As to last minute trips, most of us have to plan ahead, result of being employed or having to plan around other commitments...
Oh, you'd do that on a plane then would you? again, rail should be cheaper, not arguing with that. Still, if you wanted to have an unplanned day out in, say the south downs, it would be £23 return.
As Americans say, a 100 years is a long time in the USA, but 100 miles is a long way in Britain
London to Glasgow is the sort of thing americans might do for a commute...
The rail infrastructure is closer together though; in the US you might have a station every hundred miles, in the UK it might be more than every ten.
Be more organised, stop expecting everything to handed to you on a plate. I don't mind though, it subsidises those of us who do think ahead. Again, it isn't a month - very cheap fares a month in advance, cheaper fares up to a week (and often a few days if you travel at certain times).
I sympathise with that position and would be happy to see subsidised rail travel for those on low income. Again, not saying it's perfect (or even very good, just not as bad as people say it is). I imagine if this was the case you'd take a coach though, tend to be cheaper than both.
One other thing that the aircraft lobby always seem to ignore is that returns on rail tickets are usually around the same price as singles, whereas with aircraft you need to buy both...
BMI today to Glasgow.
Travel to heathrow: £15 (cheaper on the tube though)
Return flight (out at 08.40, back at 19.30): £302
Taxes, fees and charges: £40.60
Travel from Glasgow Airport: Dunno, lets say £5.
All told around £360
Rail
Bus to Euston: £1
Return: £108.80 (off peak anytime)
Travel from Glasgow central: Probably nothing, it's in the middle of Glasgow.
All told around £110
Can also take luggage with you free on a train, which is nice.
