Government wants to replace short-haul flights with rail

[agricola]

This will single-handedly cut domestic flights between London and Northern destinations by three quarters at least, so I'm all for it.

Reducing the cost (or improving the quality) of the existing service would probably reduce the number of domestic flights - and it wouldnt cost £30 billion plus to do so. If we are going to have the biggest state investment into the railways ever then one wonders whether it can justifiably be spent on duplicating two lines that already exist, and which themselves have already been in reciept of billions of pounds of recent investment.

What's to be done where trackbeds were used to build roads or have become obstructed by roads or buildings, e.g. http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/...rove_Road.html and http://www.visitcumbria.com/cm/ckpr.htm / http://www.ckp-railways.talktalk.net/intact.htm

Where that has happened the problems can usually be dealt with (either by changing the route, or engineering a solution, or buying that area concerned) - and they are rarely totally insurmountable.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

bumped because of this article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8432051.stm

A new terminus and the lines out of central London will be vastly expensive, one imagines. How many rail-free towns could be reconnected to the network for this? How many more already existing lines could have their capacity expanded?

Hold on a mo, we've already gone over that in this thread (post 304 onwards)

Reconnecting town to the current network would just put more stress on an already breaking system. Trying to add new capacity to the existing lines would just see massive amount of line closures while the work was going on.

Sorry, but I still reckon this is a fucking good idea.

 

[agricola]

Hold on a mo, we've already gone over that in this thread (post 304 onwards)

Reconnecting town to the current network would just put more stress on an already breaking system. Trying to add new capacity to the existing lines would just see massive amount of line closures while the work was going on.

Sorry, but I still reckon this is a fucking good idea.

The system is not "breaking" though - some parts are operating near capacity (and indeed it is questionable how close they actually are to it), but there is demonstrably plenty of room on other parts.

Indeed, one imagines that its going to be those parts (both the secondary lines and the new lines) that see the increase in traffic, and not the busier lines (given that quite a lot of the traffic would be either of relatively short distance or would replace already existing bus services).

 

[Crispy]

Where the hell are they going to put the London station?!?

 

[Mr T]

euston will be the london terminus, its the only one big enough and has existing approaches from the WCML and easy connection to HS1 via the north london line alignment. from what i've heard, the current thinking seems to be to divert the euston-northampton/milton keynes services from WCML onto crossrail via a new tunnel in the kensal rise area, and use the freed-up capacity at euston for HS2. crossrail is currently planned to be 24 trains an hour through the core, but with 14 terminating at paddington westbound, so they could become northampton/milton keynes services in this scenario. of course all the talk about HS2 is likely to be political hot air for the next ten years at least so i wouldn't hold your breath for a nice convenient MK-Canary Wharf service for all the commuters.

 

[Lemon Eddy]

Indeed, one imagines that its going to be those parts (both the secondary lines and the new lines) that see the increase in traffic, and not the busier lines (given that quite a lot of the traffic would be either of relatively short distance or would replace already existing bus services).

I'm afraid I can't agree that one imagines that. What I imagine is that the bits of the network that are struggling are the ones on popular routes. Connect more stations, and you're going to see more people coming onto those routes.

Anyway, we've gone round this before. You reckon this is a waste of money, I reckon this is the only way to actually get a train system that will work.

 

[T & P]

If it works for Europe, it should work for us. Even with the argument that Britain has more densely populated areas, there are still vast amounts of land outside metropolitan areas of cities where high speed lines can be built with the same ease as those built in the Continent.

The existing lines would benefit enormously as well as large number of Intercity services wold be switched to the HSL, freeing up track.

There is also a study (can't find a link at the mo) that claims for every Pound spend in HSL, £1.80 is eventually recouped in increased investment and foreign trade attracted as a result.

It would be a tragedy and a massive error if Britain was left behind as the only top industrialised nation without a high speed network.

 

[teuchter]

I'm afraid I can't agree that one imagines that. What I imagine is that the bits of the network that are struggling are the ones on popular routes. Connect more stations, and you're going to see more people coming onto those routes.

Anyway, we've gone round this before. You reckon this is a waste of money, I reckon this is the only way to actually get a train system that will work.

The suggestion is not simply to reconnect new bits though; the suggestion is that the money could also be spent on incremental upgrades to the existing lines that are currently at capacity.

I don't claim any particular authority to judge whether spending the money in this way rather than on a new dedicated HS network would represent the best value in the long run... But I do know which option is more glamorous and more appealing to a politician wanting to attach his or her name to a highly visible project. And it's mainly for that reason that I'd suggest the plans for a new HS network should be put under very close scrutiny before going ahead with them. It's not as if any government in this country has a very good record when it comes to long term planning for the railways.

 

[agricola]

I'm afraid I can't agree that one imagines that. What I imagine is that the bits of the network that are struggling are the ones on popular routes. Connect more stations, and you're going to see more people coming onto those routes.

Thats because you are mistaken in thinking that reconnecting, for example, Leigh to the rail network will result in unacceptable (in terms of capacity) numbers of people going to London via the busy WCML. There would be some increase, but the majority of the new traffic would be people going to Manchester along the new line.

Moreover, its a bit worrying that we are being told by HS2, the Government and the Tories that the only option to increase capacity is to build a HS network. If reopenings were allied to improvements to the already existing system then we could do far more good (in enviromental terms), at a cheaper cost, than the HS line will.

Anyway, we've gone round this before. You reckon this is a waste of money, I reckon this is the only way to actually get a train system that will work.

We already have a system that works, despite the best efforts of privatization, TOCs, and Government interference.... and even if we didnt I doubt very much that spending upwards of £32 billion on a premium service between those cities already amply connected to the network would fix it.