Good work by Leeds Anarchist black Cross

[agricola]

So how does the "system" decide such matters? Through discussion and debate from those who know about what informs and underlies such behaviour? Or sanctimonious preachers who understand moral dilemmas in their own minds but rarely understand the pressures of those who they comment upon.

Further debate is probably pointless, but the one part of the criminal justice system that can be shown to work pretty well (those who are detained for long periods of time have very, very low reoffending rates, probably because of the nature of their crimes, the length of the period of the imprisonment breaking most of their offending patterns and the severe restrictions they are under when released) is what we are discussing here, when the Bowden case is mentioned.

So all murderers are, in your opinion, beyond redemption from the outset? You describe a nebulous aim but i would argue that prison without the primary intention of rehabilitation is pointless, barbaric and without reason.

Again you spectacularly fail to answer a simple question. How do you rehabilitate a murderer? To be fair, you can also answer that question by showing how Bowden has achieved redemption for his crime.

Criminals apart from the rest of society? Pah. This is people we're talking about. Nothing more, nothing less. You're moral certitude that you stand already as a class apart is telling. Your support for a system that aims to simply slam away certain members of society for some acts of behaviour unacceptable to the greater good, with no chance to reform or understand or improve is really quite pitiful imo.

What planet is it you live on?

 

[kyser_soze]

Who are these "most people" then kyser? Do "most people's" view tend to shape your thinking these days? Or are there some deeper uncomfortable principles about what is known as justice and punishment and retribution and rehabilitation that get lost in petty arguments about the nature of one person's crimes? Perhaps?

Quite honestly I couldn't give a toss about this specific case - my main point is that this is exactly the kind if insular, not remotely-in-touch with how most people think shit that gives anarchists not a bad name, but a laughable one, especially when it comes to suposedly helping the w/c, encouraging solidarity etc. You aren't going to do that by supporting a cause that's a piece of piss to emotionally manipulate people over - which supporting someone who committed some pretty horrific crimes will. You seem to be under the impression that people have such a marvellously developed moral sense as yourself, and that despite all the things you can say about rehabilitation and the rest of it, it only takes one simple headline and story 'reminding' people of what he did to roll it all back.

Altho I love the use of a PR technique of not mentioning what he's actually done...beautiful irony that...

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Further debate is probably pointless, but the one part of the criminal justice system that can be shown to work pretty well (those who are detained for long periods of time have very, very low reoffending rates, probably because of the nature of their crimes, the length of the period of the imprisonment breaking most of their offending patterns and the severe restrictions they are under when released) is what we are discussing here, when the Bowden case is mentioned.

Again you spectacularly fail to answer a simple question. How do you rehabilitate a murderer? To be fair, you can also answer that question by showing how Bowden has achieved redemption for his crime.

What planet is it you live on?

Pretty well in instituionalising people possibly, pretty well at keeping them locked up, less good at allowing people the ability to understand what they have done, why it might be considered wrong, how they need to change to avoid that behaviour in the future and so on. But its easier to stick a label on and say that "it" will never change (don't personalise people, they're "it's" and nothing more).

How to rehabilitate a murderer? You talk to them, explain why they're in nick, ask them what happened, and why, you show empathy and listen to their answers, you treat them like a person, it's fucking easy. It does rely on a lack of prejudice which unfortunately seems to drip though discussions about what are considered criminal acts at any particular point. Stick political issues on top and it becomes slightly worrying imo.

On redemption, all I'd say is this

Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery,
None but ourselves can free our minds

 

[soulman]

Are you a cop agricola?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Quite honestly I couldn't give a toss about this specific case - my main point is that this is exactly the kind if insular, not remotely-in-touch with how most people think shit that gives anarchists not a bad name, but a laughable one, especially when it comes to suposedly helping the w/c, encouraging solidarity etc. You aren't going to do that by supporting a cause that's a piece of piss to emotionally manipulate people over - which supporting someone who committed some pretty horrific crimes will. You seem to be under the impression that people have such a marvellously developed moral sense as yourself, and that despite all the things you can say about rehabilitation and the rest of it, it only takes one simple headline and story 'reminding' people of what he did to roll it all back.

Altho I love the use of a PR technique of not mentioning what he's actually done...beautiful irony that...

He's done a crime, he's served his time. It's really as simple as that, if you're claiming any credibility for this country's judicial system. He was put up for parole and it appears very strongly that because of something that he wrote for ABC, his parole was revoked. This is a symptom of a much wider malaise in our judicial and legal system and that's where I'd agree that the issues in this particular case aren't important.

So, do you want to spend a discussion talking about why you shouldn't chop someone's head off, or do you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of the approach in this country to crime and punishment. Tell you what, I'm off to bed so think about it eh. Laters

 

[agricola]

How to rehabilitate a murderer? You talk to them, explain why they're in nick, ask them what happened, and why, you show empathy and listen to their answers, you treat them like a person, it's fucking easy. It does rely on a lack of prejudice which unfortunately seems to drip though discussions about what are considered criminal acts at any particular point.

Congratulations, that is by far the most breathtakingly naive post I have ever read.

 

[soulman]

Or a screw?

There's something particularly vindictive in your posting that suggests you are...

 

[untethered]

He's done a crime, he's served his time. It's really as simple as that, if you're claiming any credibility for this country's judicial system. He was put up for parole and it appears very strongly that because of something that he wrote for ABC, his parole was revoked. This is a symptom of a much wider malaise in our judicial and legal system and that's where I'd agree that the issues in this particular case aren't important.

The system seems to be working pretty well. The parole system is designed to keep people in prison that still cause concern. Mr Bowden still takes the attitude (as amply reflected back to him by his supporters) that it's the system that's wrong, not him. He would rather fight against the system than work to change himself in any meaningful way.

The whole point of the life sentence system is that it isn't as simple as "he's done a crime, he's served his time". That's what happens when you get a determinate sentence for a relatively minor crime, not when you commit murder, and a particularly grisly one in this case to boot. When you have a life sentence, the system owns you until the day you die. Any time released from prison, even after the tariff has been served, is a privilege, not a right.

There are many things that could be improved about the judicial and prison system, but declining to release a life prisoner convicted of the most grotesque crime when he's actively advocating disorder within and outside prisons isn't one of them.

 

[untethered]

Your line of argument appears to be that no-one can ever change their behaviour - presumably, you would support the institution of the death penalty as some people can never be reformed or changed, their lives are given context by a single act, and thus it is pointless to use penal reform to bring about any changes?

That doesn't tend to be the main reason why people support the death penalty. They support it because they believe that it's the most appropriate punishment for the gravest of crimes. In this context, the criminal's potential for reform is immaterial.

I don't believe in the death penalty, but I believe that premeditated murder should be punished with a whole-life sentence on the same rationale.

 

[bluestreak]

Or a screw?

There's something particularly vindictive in your posting that suggests you are...

He used to claim to be a cop. Or an ex-cop. Or maybe one of those people who pretends they're a cop but couldn't pass the fitness test or something, I don't think we ever worked it out.

Surely with Bowden it's pretty clear - as I understand it the parole people reckoned he wasn't dangerous anymore and were going to let him out until he started banging on about smashing the state. So instead of having a quiet word Leeds ABC took him on as a cause. Personally I'd have said "Shut up John, tell em you confused Anarchism for Anglicanism and you'll be out in no time, then we can actually do something useful."

 

[soulman]

He used to claim to be a cop. Or an ex-cop. Or maybe one of those people who pretends they're a cop but couldn't pass the fitness test or something, I don't think we ever worked it out.

Surely with Bowden it's pretty clear - as I understand it the parole people reckoned he wasn't dangerous anymore and were going to let him out until he started banging on about smashing the state. So instead of having a quiet word Leeds ABC took him on as a cause. Personally I'd have said "Shut up John, tell em you confused Anarchism for Anglicanism and you'll be out in no time, then we can actually do something useful."

Couldn't give a shit about bowden. Just wanted to clarify for myself where agricola was coming from.

 

[bluestreak]

Oh, he has an agenda!

 

[untethered]

Personally I'd have said "Shut up John, tell em you confused Anarchism for Anglicanism and you'll be out in no time, then we can actually do something useful."

This would seem like the most sensible and pragmatic approach for him.

However, I don't know what you mean by "useful" but someone on a life licence, particularly in the early years after release will find it almost impossible to get away with anything. He would have very close supervision from a probation officer and any suspicion of involvement with political subversion or petty crime would see him back inside for another lengthy stretch.

Of course, this would provide plenty of grist for the ABC's "political prisoner" mill.

 

[bluestreak]

Well, quite. But I think that if nothing else he could do some good work. People in prison aren't any use to society, anarchist or otherwise. He's already wasted his life, surely a better use of the rest of it is not to make a martyr out of himself cos it isn;t working. No-one cares about a murderer bleating from his cell. But a reformed character highlighting the class bias inherent in the prison system from bitter experience? This man can do something with his life.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Surely with Bowden it's pretty clear - as I understand it the parole people reckoned he wasn't dangerous anymore and were going to let him out until he started banging on about smashing the state. So instead of having a quiet word Leeds ABC took him on as a cause. Personally I'd have said "Shut up John, tell em you confused Anarchism for Anglicanism and you'll be out in no time, then we can actually do something useful."

 

[kyser_soze]

He's already wasted his life, surely a better use of the rest of it is not to make a martyr out of himself cos it isn;t working

To be a martyr you have to have some kind of widespread public support and awareness of your situation - which is not something he has.

TBH he's a bit of a numpty if he knew he was likely to be let out and then started going on about smashing the state - if nothing it could be argued that he's not stable enough to be let out, but yeah I take the point that the refusal is iffy, even tho I don't think he should be let out in the first place.

 

[chico enrico]

Who are these "most people" then kyser? Do "most people's" view tend to shape your thinking these days? Or are there some deeper uncomfortable principles about what is known as justice and punishment and retribution and rehabilitation that get lost in petty arguments about the nature of one person's crimes? Perhaps?

errr...yes, "most people's" views DO tend to 'shape my thinking' these days.

i know that 'most people' couldn't give a flying fuck about anarchism, let alone campaigns for folk who chopped someone up and kept their head in a fridge. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a horses arse.

But then again, as kyser says above, if @s really cared about 'most people' (not just the ones who have done something 'against the state' or chucked a petrol bomb) they would be doing things involved with their local community which actually affect and have some resonance on people's lives.

Which NONE OF THEM SEEM TO DO. cos it's not romantic and hard and all that bollocks that black-clad bedsit weirdoes get off on.

How many @s involved in this Free John Bowden campaign as opposed to campaigning against the govt's proposed getting rid of 'meals on wheels' ?

I rest my case.

 

[Yelkcub]

Can safely chuckle at the fecklessness of any organisation so useless as to get involved in this sort of PR suicide.

 

[kyser_soze]

Can safely chuckle at the fecklessness of any organisation so useless as to get involved in this sort of PR suicide.

The thing is it's painful PR suicide...supporting a campaign that on to a loss at best, and then not being upfront about what the guy was in the nick for...they've taken all the wrong lessons from NuLab and none of the right ones...

 

[Yelkcub]

The thing is it's painful PR suicide...supporting a campaign that on to a loss at best, and then not being upfront about what the guy was in the nick for...they've taken all the wrong lessons from NuLab and none of the right ones...

It hilarious that people wanting to do something as big as completely changing the system we live in, are clearly so incompetent.

 

[chico enrico]

It hilarious that people wanting to do something as big as completely changing the system we live in, are clearly so incompetent.

yes. laughable to think how society would end up if miraculously those dorks saw their @ist revolution overnight.

(actually, probably a bit like West Belfast in the early 70s crossed with Sierra Leone)

 

[Yelkcub]

The point is that people do change and we should encourage that rather than siding with the state as you not so 'anarchists' have chosen. Anarchists have faith in humanity rather than a Daily Mail 'esque' 'lock him up' mentality.

The point is that there's a political movement that needs a groundswell of support to achieve it's still highly improbable aim that thinks it'll get anywhere with a decapiting murderer as it's poster boy.

 

[durruti02]

1. Most working class people I've ever met would probably have argued that Bowdens head be separated from his shoulders upon being found guilty of decapitating someone, dismembering them and keeping their head in a fridge. That's actual w/c people whom I grew up with, not the imaginary ones Attica seems to think exist

2. Reading that link, this group seem to be doing an awful lot to support anarchists in various places, but very little actual community work in their own back yards, helping improve the lot of local people, perhaps by organising local voloutary groups to help the elderly out in the winter - you kow, a bit of community solidarity. But then those selfsame people would probably want this Bowden character to stay inside for his crimes as well, so perhaps they're not w/c enough, or not the right sort of w/c, for Atty and his anarcho chums to offer support to...

100%

 

[durruti02]

Let the bugger out, he's done his time and is as reformed as the prison system is ever gonna let someone be, don't punish him cos he's developed politics.

On the other hand, focusing on him when there are so many other more important things? Nah mate.

yep

 

[durruti02]

errr...yes, "most people's" views DO tend to 'shape my thinking' these days.

i know that 'most people' couldn't give a flying fuck about anarchism, let alone campaigns for folk who chopped someone up and kept their head in a fridge. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a horses arse.

But then again, as kyser says above, if @s really cared about 'most people' (not just the ones who have done something 'against the state' or chucked a petrol bomb) they would be doing things involved with their local community which actually affect and have some resonance on people's lives.

Which NONE OF THEM SEEM TO DO. cos it's not romantic and hard and all that bollocks that black-clad bedsit weirdoes get off on.

How many @s involved in this Free John Bowden campaign as opposed to campaigning against the govt's proposed getting rid of 'meals on wheels' ?

I rest my case.

i remember looking at the Mark Barnsley website several years ago and there were @ benefits for him all over the world!! wtf .. like these @ist supportter clubs don't have prisoners/poor/ oppressed/ old people etc etc etc where they live?? @ism is fucked up !

 

[Taxamo Welf]

props to kyser and chico - yep very fair points, i entirely agree.

There are plenty of anarchists engaged in this stuff* though you will be pleased to hear, and there always has been. The visible 'I'M AN ANARCHIST RA RA RA' side of things, the benefits, the 'actions' etc. are often quite separate to the people doing the community work. You arent going to find many of them on here though.

*actually hadn't heard about meals on wheels. At the moment for instance, my group is locally focussing on temp agencies and how they are fucking people over on an international level; we'll be publishing info in english and polish simulataneously and trying to run an identical campaign in both countries.

For me personally i see organising people in 'McJobs' as a make or break area for anarcho's, just as much as community organising is. "If we can make it there we'll make it anywhere" as the song goes.

PS - i'm also very serious about PR for the left. It looks shit, it needs to match and beat the opposition, which shouldn't be that hard. Kyser how much do you charge

 

[Taxamo Welf]

i remember looking at the Mark Barnsley website several years ago and there were @ benefits for him all over the world!! wtf .. like these @ist supportter clubs don't have prisoners/poor/ oppressed/ old people etc etc etc where they live?? @ism is fucked up !

people in poland held benefit gigs i believe. Lets just consider the exchange rate alone, and leave it there.

 

[The Black Hand]

i remember looking at the Mark Barnsley website several years ago and there were @ benefits for him all over the world!! wtf .. like these @ist supportter clubs don't have prisoners/poor/ oppressed/ old people etc etc etc where they live?? @ism is fucked up !

I think international solidarity is essential, I do not see it as being 'fucked up' at all in the age of globalisation. You were not saying this when money was coming in for the miners from around the world.... In fact, I think we should not be critical about any struggles like this unless they are reactionary in some way (and I do not think the case you mentioned was), instead there should be more emphasis on what you want to see here, and build and promote those campaigns. I think criticism like yours in this case is futile.

 

[chico enrico]

I think international solidarity is essential, I do not see it as being 'fucked up' at all in the age of globalisation. You were not saying this when money was coming in for the miners from around the world.... In fact, I think we should not be critical about any struggles like this unless they are reactionary in some way (and I do not think the case you mentioned was), instead there should be more emphasis on what you want to see here, and build and promote those campaigns. I think criticism like yours in this case is futile.

I think a lot of normal folks supported the miners and the hardships their families and communities were undergoing during the strike.

I don't think a lot of normal folks would have a great deal of support for a chap who boiled a tramp alive, chopped him up and kept his head beside the Dairylee.

 

[The Black Hand]

I think a lot of normal folks supported the miners and the hardships their families and communities were undergoing during the strike.

I don't think a lot of normal folks would have a great deal of support for a chap who boiled a tramp alive, chopped him up and kept his head beside the Dairylee.

Try and stay on topic.