Good work by Leeds Anarchist black Cross

[chico enrico]

fair post mate.
by problem is with most anarchists rather than the ideas.
the ideas are sound, most (note: most/not all) 'anarchists' i've met (who got into CW etc after 1985) are divs/smellies/animal rights nuts etc.
i simply haven't got anything in common with folk like that and i'd certainly rather live in the sort of (fucked up) society we have now than the unimaginable hell their 'anarchist utopia' would be.
still, i'm 100% behind any @s who i think are doing anything positive in their communities/for the common good and i hope i always will be.
threads like this don't help much tho IMO.

 

[YouSir]

fair post mate.
by problem is with most anarchists rather than the ideas.
the ideas are sound, most (note: most/not all) 'anarchists' i've met (who got into CW etc after 1985) are divs/smellies/animal rights nuts etc.
i simply haven't got anything in common with folk like that and i'd certainly rather live in the sort of (fucked up) society we have now than the unimaginable hell their 'anarchist utopia' would be.
still, i'm 100% behind any @s who i think are doing anything positive in their communities/for the common good and i hope i always will be.
threads like this don't help much tho IMO.

Aye, understandable, I'm not an Anarchist myself, every time I've felt inclined to move towards it I get immediately put off by the factional in-fighting and shite which seems to swamp the movement (if you can call it that). But then again, I've met self-proclaimed Anarchists who've done shit loads for the communities they live in and the greater society around them as well as being very sorted individuals, although oddly enough they're never a member of any formal group or clique.

 

[chico enrico]

Aye, understandable, I'm not an Anarchist myself, every time I've felt inclined to move towards it I get immediately put off by the factional in-fighting and shite which seems to swamp the movement (if you can call it that). But then again, I've met self-proclaimed Anarchists who've done shit loads for the communities they live in and the greater society around them as well as being very sorted individuals, although oddly enough they're never a member of any formal group or clique.

lot of good points here mate.

yes, i remember the Clydeside @s who did lots of good stuff, likewise @ groups up and down the country durimng the miners strike etc and you only have to read the stuff about the 'Alarm' group in Bone's book to see the sort of thing @s should be doing so maybe it's just a London thing that most @s are divs, totally on another fuckin orbit when it comes to being in touch with what normal folk think and not interested in doing anything that actually touches on people's lives for the better.

I used to believe in @ism and that @ist groups could achieve its' laudable aims when I was younger. I also used to believe in the tooth fairy and that monsters lived down the plughole of the bath when i was younger still.

Don't really see much difference between them now.

if @s want to really achieve anything the first thing they should do is have fuck all to do with anarchist groups cos they're riding the rapids down shit creek without a paddle and there's no way upstream.

 

[The Black Hand]

Yes. If you look at the history of the past 100 years of anarchism that is most certainly 'important'. generally something achieved through disseminating libertarian ideas in ways that engage and relate to everyday people in their lives and the subsequent confrontations with authority which they may encounter.

come on mate, @ism in Britain is just a cult and has been for a long time. it's like the flat earth society or those folk who go on about the medicinal benefits of drinking your own piss in the morning. a lot of anarchist principles are sound in theory but this ain't krondstadt or aragon and getting into bed with loons who keep severed heads beside the milk in their fridge ain't exactly gonna do much for attracting folk to your ideas, is it?

Yes, but I happen to think there is a place in our movement for pro working class prisoner politics in our movement. There are different levels of struggles, different issues and problems, and therefore a range of struggles are what is needed within an overall class struggle movement.

I think there should be a place for experimental class struggles, the more obvious workplace ones, the precarious class struggles (such as Maydays in the UK), and cutting edge frontline class struggles which negotiate the boundaries of class in 21st century Britain and the resulting class relations, ie. the relations of social control.

 

[chico enrico]

I think there should be a place for experimental class struggles, the more obvious workplace ones, the precarious class struggles (such as Maydays in the UK), and cutting edge frontline class struggles which negotiate the boundaries of class in 21st century Britain and the resulting class relations, ie. the relations of social control.

Not trying to be funny, but I really haven't a clue what that means, and wouldn't expect many others do either

 

[revol68]

Not trying to be funny, but I really haven't a clue what that means, and wouldn't expect many others do either

it's nonsense, buzzwords and jargon, a flowery vagueness to mask really shit politics.

 

[The Black Hand]

it's nonsense, buzzwords and jargon, a flowery vagueness to mask really shit politics.

You really have not got a clue nor enough experience to have a judgement revol. Have you any idea of the range of class struggles there are? I was describing them in an inclusive non judgemental movement way. You and t'other tossers on limpcok are not fit to pronounce on any struggle at all

 

[The Black Hand]

Not trying to be funny, but I really haven't a clue what that means, and wouldn't expect many others do either

I was saying that initiatives by enthusiasts in the class struggle should be supported rather than written off in advance. To write off in advance of practice is actually conservative methodology (true) rather than Marxist (see Marx in the Theses on Fueurbach), or anarchist which is an open method of thought.

 

[chico enrico]

I was saying that initiatives by enthusiasts in the class struggle should be supported rather than written off in advance. To write off in advance of practice is actually conservative methodology (true) rather than Marxist (see Marx in the Theses on Fueurbach), or anarchist which is an open method of thought.

honestly mate, what the bloody hell you on about? that's just utter gobbledygook.

If an idea can't be communicated in a way people can understand it probably isn't really worth communicating IMO.

NB: re "see Marx in the Theses on Fueurbach" - don't think so chum. sounds boring as fuck.

 

[The Black Hand]

The first sentence is not difficult and it is self explanatory. There are differences between people based upon their experiences, and I do not think any reader of a serious newspaper (the bigger ones) would have dificulty with that. People understand concepts at different stages of their life, and they do it at different rates, I am happy I have communicated what I meant to every reader of this post except you Chicky.

 

[The Black Hand]

Greek ABC, anarchists etc show us all how to do it!!

http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/11/385781.html

 

[durruti02]

To reply to the Untethered question about his website:

That's a decision for those running the campaign.

If you want my opinion, it would probably increase support if it was known he had taken a prison officer hostage, and decrease it if some of the accusations banded about concerning the murder were placed on there.

Ultimately I support his campaign because he is no longer a threat to the general public (which is why he was placed in an open prison, and why he is now returning to one) because he has been attacked for holding political beliefs I share and because people I know and respect have served time with him, and found him to be a good bloke.

In a way I don't have a problem with people saying he should never be released and should have been executed for his original crime. That's a viewpoint many would hold.

What I cannot stand though is the hypocrisy of those who would normally say they were liberals, socialists or anarchists (Chico Enrico and In Bloom being two examples) but who in this instance reject the view that someone can change from being a bad to a good person, and worse think it does not matter when that person is then attacked by the authorities, not for their original crime, but their political beliefs.

As I said above, such attacks are more about their attitudes to certain class struggle anarchists than they are about the John Bowden case.

80,000 prisoners in the UK and the @ists concentrate on John Bowden .. with chico on this .. like backing a 3 leeged donkey

 

[durruti02]

I couldn't have put it better myself Paul. John Bowden has for many years provided good political analysis of the state (sic) of UK prisons in the anarchist press. He has been consistent in his politics too.

Anarchism is NOT in the business of agreeing with the state in its definitions nor agreeing with the states' attack on a political prisoner. AS Paul says people can and do change, despite and not because of prison which is an unnatural and horrific place to be.

I find it incredible that so called anarchists choose to ignore the politics John has taken part in and concentrate on a crime from many years ago. I cannot see anything at all anarchist in their position, which is a liberal conservative one, without doubt. At best it is expedient politics, not disimilar to the Trots who the same people would criticise.

To add; just a thought. Getting the pure liberal anarchists to support John Bowden is actually a test of class. Rather like the media who look at the working class as if they are in a zoo, so do the pure anarcho commies, and these people 'support' them but are not one of them. Unfortunately this time one of the 'animals' has done something too 'bad' a long time ago and they withdraw their flag waving support - as if it mattered wtf they did anyway...

no the point is all teh above is all irrelevent .. what is relevent there are 80 000 prisoners .. many of whom will have better politics than bowden ... who are ignored by default .. the real test of class struggle @ism, attica and paul, is supportting ordinary prisoners instead of going on about so called anarchist prisoners .. this is more black flag than class war

 

[durruti02]

Yawn - typical non participation in class struggle which supporting a class struggle prisoner picked on because of his anarchist politics. Rather than change society you just want to agree with it whilst stroking your beard. Real anarchists think trying to change the world is important

AS for the shite about the 'personal is political' of course, but here we are talking about something in his way distant past. The point is that people do change and we should encourage that rather than siding with the state as you not so 'anarchists' have chosen. Anarchists have faith in humanity rather than a Daily Mail 'esque' 'lock him up' mentality.

attica this is ghetto politics .. as i said there are 80k prisoners of whom 75k are working class ... class struggle politics should support them .. jesus how class war has changed ..

p.s. i do not doubt that bowden may have changed and be a sound man .. but that is irrelevent .. what is relevent is what class struggle @s get involved in .. not this

 

[durruti02]

Uhm, I was broadly sympathetic to the aims of the various ABCs, after reading this however......

And 'mainstream' anarchists are sincerely scratching their (collective) heads asking why they can't successfully reinvigorate an anarchist movement....

A good friend of mine was sent down recently and is being supported by the Leeds ABC. He was a hardcore animal rights activist. They seem to form the core of the "anarchists" the ABC is supporting. I can't quite figure this out ideologically however, as I thought there might be some tension between anarchist principles and people who would inflict violence on a human to prevent (potential) violence towards animals. I also disagree fundamentally with what he did, irrespective of what else I know about him personally and whether I think he's "changed" or not.

you are right mate .. ABC has traditionally supportted anarcho individuals .. as opposed to w/c prisoners anarcho or not .. it is not a class struggle org imho and never has been ..

 

[The Black Hand]

attica this is ghetto politics .. as i said there are 80k prisoners of whom 75k are working class ... class struggle politics should support them .. jesus how class war has changed ..

p.s. i do not doubt that bowden may have changed and be a sound man .. but that is irrelevent .. what is relevent is what class struggle @s get involved in .. not this

We were doing it in the early mid 1990's when nobody seemed interested, you are teaching us to suck eggs.

This is only one campaign of many things we do, you shouldn't view 1 campaign as 'the only' thing which is happening. eg. go see the No More Prison website, I was at the founding meeting

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

iro John Bowden, i just love the way that so many free-thinking independent-spirited people simply cannot move past the original crime and even contemplate the fact that as someone grows older, they change their views, motivations and awareness. it's pretty pathetic imo, and a sad indictment of a judical system that intends to, at least in part and in law, to rehabilitate offenders.

listening to someone who has been at the sharp end of judicial and penal procedure and process, in terms of better understanding how to reduce the likelihood of such events occuring in the future, makes complete sense to me. very sad to see such closed mindsets displayed from people from whom more should be expected tbh. principles and practice of basic rights require universal application, otherwise they are meaningless.

 

[durruti02]

We were doing it in the early mid 1990's when nobody seemed interested, you are teaching us to suck eggs.

This is only one campaign of many things we do, you shouldn't view 1 campaign as 'the only' thing which is happening. eg. go see the No More Prison website, I was at the founding meeting

yes i know you were .. stick to it .. this abc stuff is @ghetto politics

 

[Random]

I was at the founding meeting

 

[agricola]

iro John Bowden, i just love the way that so many free-thinking independent-spirited people simply cannot move past the original crime and even contemplate the fact that as someone grows older, they change their views, motivations and awareness. it's pretty pathetic imo, and a sad indictment of a judical system that intends to, at least in part and in law, to rehabilitate offenders.

listening to someone who has been at the sharp end of judicial and penal procedure and process, in terms of better understanding how to reduce the likelihood of such events occuring in the future, makes complete sense to me. very sad to see such closed mindsets displayed from people from whom more should be expected tbh. principles and practice of basic rights require universal application, otherwise they are meaningless.

No offence, but thats bollocks.

All of the Bowden-threads seem to run the same course - the same people championing him as a wronged man, a political prisoner, a man kept inside by a right-wing American social worker etc, when what it comes down to is that he committed an especially brutal murder, he has been spectacularly not behaving himself inside (an 18-month escape, and a hostage-taking to name but two), and he will be released / supervised after release under the conditions of a life licence, conditions which - for various reasons (of which his "political" writings are no doubt one) have not been met.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

No offence, but thats bollocks.

All of the Bowden-threads seem to run the same course - the same people championing him as a wronged man, a political prisoner, a man kept inside by a right-wing American social worker etc, when what it comes down to is that he committed an especially brutal murder, he has been spectacularly not behaving himself inside (an 18-month escape, and a hostage-taking to name but two), and he will be released / supervised after release under the conditions of a life licence, conditions which - for various reasons (of which his "political" writings are no doubt one) have not been met.

I don't agree. Much more recently than the "spectacular" non-behaviour incidents you mention, he was working out of the prison with kids, he was more or less considered suitable for release. It seems that he has had his license revoked precisely because of his involvement with campaigns aiming to reform judicial procedures.

Your line of argument appears to be that no-one can ever change their behaviour - presumably, you would support the institution of the death penalty as some people can never be reformed or changed, their lives are given context by a single act, and thus it is pointless to use penal reform to bring about any changes?

 

[agricola]

I don't agree. Much more recently than the "spectacular" non-behaviour incidents you mention, he was working out of the prison with kids, he was more or less considered suitable for release. It seems that he has had his license revoked precisely because of his involvement with campaigns aiming to reform judicial procedures.

Your line of argument appears to be that no-one can ever change their behaviour - presumably, you would support the institution of the death penalty as some people can never be reformed or changed, their lives are given context by a single act, and thus it is pointless to use penal reform to bring about any changes?

Its good that he was working with kids, but you cannot ignore in the larger picture the earlier behaviour (especially the escape and hostage taking, both of which are criminal offences by themselves), and when he is stupid enough to publish items that can be easily read as to diminish his own responsibility in that (and his murder and pre murder) offending, it is not too hard to see why the Parole Board turned him down (also, his licence wasnt revoked - it was never granted).

Its also entirely misleading of you to suggest my argument is anything to do with rehabilitation. My argument is that if Bowden is stupid enough to publicly spout off about the system, and the justice of his own detention under that system, while that same system has him (metaphorically speaking) by the short and curlies (as he is under a life licence), then he is an idiot.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Why? Why is he an idiot to criticise the system that has had direct control over much of his adult life, his treatment and that of other prisoners, his rehabiltation or lack of apparently? I don't see the logic of the argument at all.

 

[agricola]

Why? Why is he an idiot to criticise the system that has had direct control over much of his adult life, his treatment and that of other prisoners, his rehabiltation or lack of apparently? I don't see the logic of the argument at all.

um:

i) because much of his criticism can be read to minimize his own responsibility for his offending;
ii) how do you rehabilitate someone who dismembered someone, boiled them alive and kept their head in a fridge? Can someone who writes about his own offending in the way that he has be genuinely said to be rehabilitated?
iii) Can anyone in his situation genuinely wonder why they are kept inside given the circumstances?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Sorry but those aren't reasons, they are arrant nonsense. After serving ~25 years, I doubt whether minimising his responsibility has any merit at all. So why would that be a motivation? How do you rehabilitate someone? Well, that is clearly the 64-million dollar question because implicit in your answer is the fact that in your opinion, prison has failed to rehabilitate this man. Therefore, current penal policy is failing to meet its own basic objectives.

Given your answer under (iii), i feel it is clear that my question about your views on the death penalty and its merit would indeed provide an answer that you believe that you agree that some people are unchangeable and thus cannot justify keeping in prison, therefore eliminate this problem by any means necessary. Is it your position that some people can never be changed for the better? What is the point of prison, in your opinion?

 

[agricola]

Sorry but those aren't reasons, they are arrant nonsense. After serving ~25 years, I doubt whether minimising his responsibility has any merit at all. So why would that be a motivation? How do you rehabilitate someone? Well, that is clearly the 64-million dollar question because implicit in your answer is the fact that in your opinion, prison has failed to rehabilitate this man. Therefore, current penal policy is failing to meet its own basic objectives.

Given your answer under (iii), i feel it is clear that my question about your views on the death penalty and its merit would indeed provide an answer that you believe that you agree that some people are unchangeable and thus cannot justify keeping in prison, therefore eliminate this problem by any means necessary. Is it your position that some people can never be changed for the better? What is the point of prison, in your opinion?

Look - to be as polite as possible, its not what you think, or what Bowden thinks, thats relevant. What is relevant is what the system that has to decide whether to issue him a life licence thinks - and, like it or not, they do have to consider his public minimization of his own offending, his behaviour whilst in prison, and other matters when it comes to whether or not he is to be released.

As for prison and rehabilitation, its a bit of a leap to suggest that murder is a crime where there is expected to be rehabilitation (as you failed to answer it above, the question must be asked again - how do you rehabilitate a murderer?) - IMHO most people would recognize that terms of imprisonment for murder are there as a punishment (which, as it happens, is something else that prison is not very good at), rather than a nebulous aim at rehabilitation.

Your nonsense about the death penalty aside, IMHO a prison regime by itself is bad at rehabiliating people (which is not to say that support programmes within prison cannot help individuals give up criminal behaviour), bad at punishing them, and good only at separating criminals from the rest of society.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Look - to be as polite as possible, its not what you think, or what Bowden thinks, thats relevant. What is relevant is what the system that has to decide whether to issue him a life licence thinks - and, like it or not, they do have to consider his public minimization of his own offending, his behaviour whilst in prison, and other matters when it comes to whether or not he is to be released.

So how does the "system" decide such matters? Through discussion and debate from those who know about what informs and underlies such behaviour? Or sanctimonious preachers who understand moral dilemmas in their own minds but rarely understand the pressures of those who they comment upon.

As for prison and rehabilitation, its a bit of a leap to suggest that murder is a crime where there is expected to be rehabilitation (as you failed to answer it above, the question must be asked again - how do you rehabilitate a murderer?) - IMHO most people would recognize that terms of imprisonment for murder are there as a punishment (which, as it happens, is something else that prison is not very good at), rather than a nebulous aim at rehabilitation.

So all murderers are, in your opinion, beyond redemption from the outset? You describe a nebulous aim but i would argue that prison without the primary intention of rehabilitation is pointless, barbaric and without reason.

Your nonsense about the death penalty aside, IMHO a prison regime by itself is bad at rehabiliating people (which is not to say that support programmes within prison cannot help individuals give up criminal behaviour), bad at punishing them, and good only at separating criminals from the rest of society.

Criminals apart from the rest of society? Pah. This is people we're talking about. Nothing more, nothing less. You're moral certitude that you stand already as a class apart is telling. Your support for a system that aims to simply slam away certain members of society for some acts of behaviour unacceptable to the greater good, with no chance to reform or understand or improve is really quite pitiful imo.

 

[kyser_soze]

1. Most working class people I've ever met would probably have argued that Bowdens head be separated from his shoulders upon being found guilty of decapitating someone, dismembering them and keeping their head in a fridge. That's actual w/c people whom I grew up with, not the imaginary ones Attica seems to think exist

2. Reading that link, this group seem to be doing an awful lot to support anarchists in various places, but very little actual community work in their own back yards, helping improve the lot of local people, perhaps by organising local voloutary groups to help the elderly out in the winter - you kow, a bit of community solidarity. But then those selfsame people would probably want this Bowden character to stay inside for his crimes as well, so perhaps they're not w/c enough, or not the right sort of w/c, for Atty and his anarcho chums to offer support to...

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Who are these "most people" then kyser? Do "most people's" view tend to shape your thinking these days? Or are there some deeper uncomfortable principles about what is known as justice and punishment and retribution and rehabilitation that get lost in petty arguments about the nature of one person's crimes? Perhaps?

 

[bluestreak]

Let the bugger out, he's done his time and is as reformed as the prison system is ever gonna let someone be, don't punish him cos he's developed politics.

On the other hand, focusing on him when there are so many other more important things? Nah mate.