Good work by Leeds Anarchist black Cross

[Paul Marsh]

I wonder if the victim of his family think of it in the same way. All I know his if someone had callously murdered someone close to me, no matter how reformed he clamed to be 20 years down the line, and no matter how progressive he had become in his politics, I would still say let him rot.

Indeed, which is why I wrote this.

In a way I don't have a problem with people saying he should never be released and should have been executed for his original crime. That's a viewpoint many would hold.

 

[Paul Marsh]

What pissed me off most was ABC misleading people about the nature of Bowden's crime, something that they've done in other cases in the past (the Unabomber, for fucks sake?) and makes it really hard to trust anything they have to say.

And your conduct encorages faith in your actions?

It is sad how quickly the state campaign against John Bowden (the media smears of him as a terrorist etc) were followed by the "anarchist" campaign against him - on Libcom, in Freedom, on this site and MATB.

If only you and your associates could co-ordinate your activities as effectively on a positive issue!

 

[In Bloom]

And your conduct encorages faith in your actions?

It is sad how quickly the state campaign against John Bowden (the media smears of him as a terrorist etc) were followed by the "anarchist" campaign against him - on Libcom, in Freedom, on this site and MATB.

If only you and your associates could co-ordinate your activities as effectively on a positive issue!

Except that there was no such "campaign" against him, outside of the paranoid imaginings of his supporters.

 

[Paul Marsh]

Except that there was no such "campaign" against him, outside of the paranoid imaginings of his supporters.

Concerted cross postings, by the same group of people, on a series of anarcho-leaning boards and a very snidey letter in the most regular anarchist publication?

Looks rather like a campaign to me........

 

[In Bloom]

Concerted cross postings, by the same group of people, on a series of anarcho-leaning boards and a very snidey letter in the most regular anarchist publication?

Looks rather like a campaign to me........

A few people who happen to post on more than one lefty board have posted saying they disagree and one letter was written to Freedom? This is your idea of a campaign?

I suppose it might go something towards explaining how Class War became such a fucking joke.

 

[Paul Marsh]

I suppose it might go something towards explaining how Class War became such a fucking joke.

A laughing stock?

I would still think Class War has got a lot more to say to working class people than any political organisation you have been involved in so far.

Do pop over and have a chat at the anarchist bookfair in October - if you can get near the stall........

 

[Belushi]

tbf, if you had killed someone and needed to get rid of the body, you might have to cut it up and store it for a while. That doesn't necessarily make you a psycho. Bowden isn't a paedo or a serial killer.

I may have thios wrong but didnt he dismember his victim while still alive, throw him into a bath of boiling water before behading him?

 

[In Bloom]

A laughing stock?

I didn't say you were a laughing stock, I said you were a joke.

Though you're more the shambling zombie corpse of the rump of an organisation that ceased to exist ten years ago.

 

[The Black Hand]

To reply to the Untethered question about his website:

That's a decision for those running the campaign.

If you want my opinion, it would probably increase support if it was known he had taken a prison officer hostage, and decrease it if some of the accusations banded about concerning the murder were placed on there.

Ultimately I support his campaign because he is no longer a threat to the general public (which is why he was placed in an open prison, and why he is now returning to one) because he has been attacked for holding political beliefs I share and because people I know and respect have served time with him, and found him to be a good bloke.

In a way I don't have a problem with people saying he should never be released and should have been executed for his original crime. That's a viewpoint many would hold.

What I cannot stand though is the hypocrisy of those who would normally say they were liberals, socialists or anarchists (Chico Enrico and In Bloom being two examples) but who in this instance reject the view that someone can change from being a bad to a good person, and worse think it does not matter when that person is then attacked by the authorities, not for their original crime, but their political beliefs.

As I said above, such attacks are more about their attitudes to certain class struggle anarchists than they are about the John Bowden case.

I couldn't have put it better myself Paul. John Bowden has for many years provided good political analysis of the state (sic) of UK prisons in the anarchist press. He has been consistent in his politics too.

Anarchism is NOT in the business of agreeing with the state in its definitions nor agreeing with the states' attack on a political prisoner. AS Paul says people can and do change, despite and not because of prison which is an unnatural and horrific place to be.

I find it incredible that so called anarchists choose to ignore the politics John has taken part in and concentrate on a crime from many years ago. I cannot see anything at all anarchist in their position, which is a liberal conservative one, without doubt. At best it is expedient politics, not disimilar to the Trots who the same people would criticise.

To add; just a thought. Getting the pure liberal anarchists to support John Bowden is actually a test of class. Rather like the media who look at the working class as if they are in a zoo, so do the pure anarcho commies, and these people 'support' them but are not one of them. Unfortunately this time one of the 'animals' has done something too 'bad' a long time ago and they withdraw their flag waving support - as if it mattered wtf they did anyway...

 

[Tom A]

Unfortunately this time one of the 'animals' has done something too 'bad' a long time ago and they withdraw their flag waving support - as if it mattered wtf they did anyway...

I would have thought it would have certanly mattered to the friends and family of the person of whom he had "dismembered while still alive, then thrown him into a bath of boiling water before behading him".

 

[The Black Hand]

I would have thought it would have certanly mattered to the friends and family of the person of whom he had "dismembered while still alive, then thrown him into a bath of boiling water before behading him".

Yawn - your 'victim' angle was copied and lame when you started it.

 

[chico enrico]

I may have this wrong but didnt he dismember his victim while still alive, throw him into a bath of boiling water before behading him?

don't you just love the way there was a deafening silence and lack of response to that post?

 

[Tom A]

Yawn - your 'victim' angle was copied and lame when you started it.

So you don't care about the family of his victim then? Don't they have rights as well?

I'd suppose if Rosemary West suddenly became an anarchist you would jump up to defend her and saying she should be freed from the "evil oppression of the State" as well...

 

[Thora]

He still committed a brutal, cold-blooded murder FFS. I wonder what the family of the dead victim think of this campaign to release this "victim of state persecution".

Oh, and before you go on about how Bush and Blair have done likewise I happily advocate having them spend the rest of their natural lives in the slammer for what they did as well.

If Bowden would have been released, but he isn't because of his political affiliations, then his crime is irrelevant to the issue. If he had been refused parole because he is a cold blooded psycho who posed a danger to the public then ABC wouldn't be interested in freeing him.

I agree with Belushi that his supporters fucked things up by trying to downplay his crime though.

 

[Tom A]

If Bowden would have been released, but he isn't because of his political affiliations, then his crime is irrelevant to the issue. If he had been refused parole because he is a cold blooded psycho who posed a danger to the public then ABC wouldn't be interested in freeing him.

I agree with Belushi that his supporters fucked things up by trying to downplay his crime though.

Well the issue I have is that they shouldn't not release him because of his politics, they just should not release him at all. A burtal murderer gets his just desserts. End of.

 

[Thora]

I may have thios wrong but didnt he dismember his victim while still alive, throw him into a bath of boiling water before behading him?

I don't know I'm afraid, I've not really followed any details of the case, but I think I remember a pro-Bowden type saying that that was salacious newspaper reporting that has been magnified with each internet retelling. If true it does go a little above and beyond what is necessary to dispose of a body

Still, the point stands that the issue is what's stopping his release, rather than what put him in there in the first place. From what I understand of the Free Bowden campaign it's because of his politics rather the likelihood of him reoffending.

 

[Thora]

Well the issue I have is that they shouldn't not release him because of his politics, they just should not release him at all. A burtal murderer gets his just desserts. End of.

I'm sure that's an opinion many people share.

 

[chico enrico]

I couldn't have put it better myself Paul. John Bowden has for many years provided good political analysis of the state (sic) of UK prisons in the anarchist press. He has been consistent in his politics too.

Anarchism is NOT in the business of agreeing with the state in its definitions nor agreeing with the states' attack on a political prisoner. AS Paul says people can and do change, despite and not because of prison which is an unnatural and horrific place to be.

I find it incredible that so called anarchists choose to ignore the politics John has taken part in and concentrate on a crime from many years ago. I cannot see anything at all anarchist in their position, which is a liberal conservative one, without doubt. At best it is expedient politics, not disimilar to the Trots who the same people would criticise.

To add; just a thought. Getting the pure liberal anarchists to support John Bowden is actually a test of class. Rather like the media who look at the working class as if they are in a zoo, so do the pure anarcho commies, and these people 'support' them but are not one of them. Unfortunately this time one of the 'animals' has done something too 'bad' a long time ago and they withdraw their flag waving support - as if it mattered wtf they did anyway...

hmmm...personally i couldn't give a toss about the politics or what someone has written in some boring mag gathering dust up angel alley.

to quote above:

I find it incredible that so called anarchists choose to ignore the politics John has taken part in and concentrate on a crime from many years ago.

...i seem to recall something bandied about in @ discussions about "the personal being political" ?

...and since when did it become wrong to be able to 'pick and choose' those you support? having read their auto biographies both Denis Nielsen and Ian Brady are pretty 'radical' and libertarian in their analysis of society. You can't honestly say you'd campaign for their release were they to start waving black flags about can you?

which i think seems to be the crux of the dividing line re folk's support/non-support for his 'cause'.

those who support him appear to do so because he is an anarchist and has apparently written some anarchist perspective on prisons pamphlet or something and taken up as a cause by the ABC or whoever it is.

those who don't are simply of the opinion they don't really want anything to do with a chap who, to quote, did:

dismember his victim while still alive, throw him into a bath of boiling water before behading him?

and think it bizarre that some self proclaimed 'class struggle anarchists' appear to do so when there are so many other other equally - or more - deserving victims of their support who perhaps haven't had quite such an , ahem, 'colourful past'.

i know which side of the line I - and i have a teeny wee suspicion -most 'working class people' would stand on.

 

[The Black Hand]

Yawn - typical non participation in class struggle which supporting a class struggle prisoner picked on because of his anarchist politics. Rather than change society you just want to agree with it whilst stroking your beard. Real anarchists think trying to change the world is important

AS for the shite about the 'personal is political' of course, but here we are talking about something in his way distant past. The point is that people do change and we should encourage that rather than siding with the state as you not so 'anarchists' have chosen. Anarchists have faith in humanity rather than a Daily Mail 'esque' 'lock him up' mentality.

 

[The Black Hand]

So you don't care about the family of his victim then? Don't they have rights as well?

I'd suppose if Rosemary West suddenly became an anarchist you would jump up to defend her and saying she should be freed from the "evil oppression of the State" as well...

Way to miss the point. I suggest you try some class struggle for a change.

 

[chico enrico]

Rather than change society you just want to agree with it whilst stroking your beard. Real anarchists think trying to change the world is important

Yes. If you look at the history of the past 100 years of anarchism that is most certainly 'important'. generally something achieved through disseminating libertarian ideas in ways that engage and relate to everyday people in their lives and the subsequent confrontations with authority which they may encounter.

come on mate, @ism in Britain is just a cult and has been for a long time. it's like the flat earth society or those folk who go on about the medicinal benefits of drinking your own piss in the morning. a lot of anarchist principles are sound in theory but this ain't krondstadt or aragon and getting into bed with loons who keep severed heads beside the milk in their fridge ain't exactly gonna do much for attracting folk to your ideas, is it?

 

[Darios]

Uhm, I was broadly sympathetic to the aims of the various ABCs, after reading this however......

And 'mainstream' anarchists are sincerely scratching their (collective) heads asking why they can't successfully reinvigorate an anarchist movement....

A good friend of mine was sent down recently and is being supported by the Leeds ABC. He was a hardcore animal rights activist. They seem to form the core of the "anarchists" the ABC is supporting. I can't quite figure this out ideologically however, as I thought there might be some tension between anarchist principles and people who would inflict violence on a human to prevent (potential) violence towards animals. I also disagree fundamentally with what he did, irrespective of what else I know about him personally and whether I think he's "changed" or not.

 

[untethered]

So there we have it, folks. Anarchist or not, your best bet is to stay out of trouble and support the police. Prisons are there to stop maniacs like Bowden oppressing the rest of us, whether for obtuse political reasons or otherwise.

 

[october_lost]

JB is being hounded for his politics FFS, the state would have happily released him if it hadnt been for his association with ABC and Anarchism in general, surely that must mean something to people slagging off this campaign?

 

[Tom A]

JB is being hounded for his politics FFS, the state would have happily released him if it hadnt been for his association with ABC and Anarchism in general, surely that must mean something to people slagging off this campaign?

For the crime that Bowden has comitted life should mean life IMO, regardless of how reformed they claim to be a few years down the line (isn't this about the 4th time I have said this in this thread?) Now if the powers that be was to acknowlege that, then this whole thing would subesquently be a non-issue. Brutal murdering scumbags would spend the rest of their days behind bars regardless of their politics - and quite rightly so.

 

[YouSir]

The line 'what would you want if you were the family' doesn't seem quite right to me, if a member of my family were brutally murdered then I'd want the attacker killed in the most painful way imaginable, probably after an extended bout of torture, which is why I should never be given a say over the punishment inflicted on someone who commits such a crime against someone I love. From where I am though, which is naturally a far less emotional (and hopefuly more logical) position than that of anyone who may be directly grieving for the victim I'd say that if he's no longer judged to be a threat to society or himself and shows genuine remorse for his acts and understanding for why they were unquestionably wrong then he should be released, albeit monitored.

I'd assume that an Anarchist stand point would be that a: The prison and judicial systems don't work particularly well in the first place, usually serving to make people more dangerous and more unstable in the name of offering a false idea of safety to those on the outside. And b: The state is judging him unfairly even by their own decidedly sorry standards by on the one hand accepting that he's a viable candidate for release whilst on the other asserting that he needs to stay in for whatever reasons.

S'just me though.

 

[chico enrico]

alternatively, there's always the view that folk who chop people's heads off and keep them in the fridge have stepped over a line which divides those who belong in civilised society and those who don't (probably around the time they're opening the fridge door with a severed head in their hand )

 

[Belushi]

It took me quite a bit of googling to find out the facts of what Bowden had been convicted of - al the pro-Bowden sites appear to be playing down that aspect of the case.

 

[chico enrico]

i tried to do a google search to see what he looks like but couldnt find any pictures of him. does he have manic staring eyes and a lopsided grin a la Ed Gein ? maybe he could start up a Manson-style cult and some of these ABC types could carve anarchy signs on their foreheads in support?

 

[YouSir]

alternatively, there's always the view that folk who chop people's heads off and keep them in the fridge have stepped over a line which divides those who belong in civilised society and those who don't (probably around the time they're opening the fridge door with a severed head in their hand )

I can't be arsed to peer into the specifics of the case, so I'll stick to general stuff. What good does keeping him locked up do? If he's been judged to be stable, to be reformed, to be harmless, then what's the point? Is it just a matter of revenge? If that's the case why not do it properly and bring in the death penalty? Or torture? People want revenge, give it to them. Beyond that, the system has defined its own rules regarding punishment, even if the fate of the individual is irrelevant the hypocrisy of the system in negating its own rules, or at least guidelines for the personal biases of those in positions of authority, something which in one way or another has some effect on us all.

come on mate, @ism in Britain is just a cult and has been for a long time. it's like the flat earth society or those folk who go on about the medicinal benefits of drinking your own piss in the morning. a lot of anarchist principles are sound in theory but this ain't krondstadt or aragon and getting into bed with loons who keep severed heads beside the milk in their fridge ain't exactly gonna do much for attracting folk to your ideas, is it?

Anarchism in Britain, or anywhere, is just a political ideology, no different to any other except in terms of current support. Every political system was marginal at one time, that's why there were Liberal revolutions and a shift from artistocratic economies to (vaguely) Free Market Capitalism. Saying Anarchism won't amount to anything in our lifetimes, or indeed in the next couple of hundred years is fair enough, probably true in fact, but to dismiss it completely is pointless. Besides, if nothing else Anarchism offers some people a framework to live their lives by and not a bad one at that, when it comes to individuals finding a way of dealing with their reality majority opinion means fuck all, just because semi-Liberal Capitalism is prevelant it doesn't demean the choices of Anarchists who follow a different route. Plus '(Anarchist ideals are) sound in theory' and '...like the flat earth society or those folk who go on about the medicinal benefits of drinking your own piss in the morning.' is a bit of a contradiction.