Good or bad?

[snadge]

What about working out what percentage of your household income a similar maid would take in the UK, then paying her that?

You just don't get it do you......

 

[scumbalina]

You just don't get it do you......

How about instead of pointing out how you don't think I've read the thread, not understood the issues, don't get it etc you just make your point?

 

[moomoo]

Ain't that the truth?

Yeah a 13 year old should be in school full time, but the social structure of the country she lives in dictates otherwise. She has a job which earns her a living wage in her local economy and stops her from ending up either a) being married off early cos her parents can't keep her, most likely against her will, b)she ends up having to work somewhere wher she won't get any schooling and will probably be earning less, or c) like so many lasses in that part of the world, ending up being a sex trade statistic.

I once employed a 16 yr old who left school at 14 cos she had a kid - in some parts of the world you aren't allowed back to school if you become pregnant. So she worked for me for 2 years and we got on very well. She could support herself and her son and not have to put up with some bloke ill treating her just cos he could give her a few dollars.

Some of you need to some of you think outside of your narrow uk experience, and understand the realiities of living in a less developed country.

Good post.

 

[trashpony]

Ain't that the truth?

Yeah a 13 year old should be in school full time, but the social structure of the country she lives in dictates otherwise. She has a job which earns her a living wage in her local economy and stops her from ending up either a) being married off early cos her parents can't keep her, most likely against her will, b)she ends up having to work somewhere wher she won't get any schooling and will probably be earning less, or c) like so many lasses in that part of the world, ending up being a sex trade statistic.

If I set up a company employing 13 year olds girls which paid them the 'living wage' and still allowed them to attend school for six hours a week would that be a good thing then?

Like I said earlier, either child labour is okay or it isn't. It doesn't make it any different IMO if you're employing one person to do the slightly more demanding bits of a small baby (and I'm doing it on my own and it really isn't that hard) or running a business. Maybe I have a utopian view but it makes me very uncomfortable.

ETA: I'm choosing your post felix because it's very comprehensive - I'm not having a go at you personally.

 

[snadge]

How about instead of pointing out how you don't think I've read the thread, not understood the issues, don't get it etc you just make your point?

well you haven't read the thread for a start, people have been pointing this out to posters all the time, I'm sure it has been mentioned to yourself as well but with your hand wringing attitude it keeps missing, you have even compared this to female genital mutilation at one point.

Originally Posted by snadge
As I have mentioned, doing that can lead to all sorts of repercussions in third world countries, sometimes injury and death from others who can see a quick buck to be made.

He is already paying her 4* the going rate.

Originally Posted by Papingo
Doing things differently from how the local market operates may throw up some odd side effects.

 

[felixthecat]

If I set up a company employing 13 year olds girls which paid them the 'living wage' and still allowed them to attend school for six hours a week would that be a good thing then?

Like I said earlier, either child labour is okay or it isn't. It doesn't make it any different IMO if you're employing one person to do the slightly more demanding bits of a small baby (and I'm doing it on my own and it really isn't that hard) or running a business. Maybe I have a utopian view but it makes me very uncomfortable.

ETA: I'm choosing your post felix because it's very comprehensive - I'm not having a go at you personally.

Its still putting our privileged western perspective on it. Sure, it would be lovely if every kid in the world went to school until they were 16 or so - but tbhshe's doing well to still be getting some schooling at 13. There isn't a benefits system that would allow low earning parents to keep kids in school, no child benefit.

Its not a comfortable position to be in when you are faced with this reality as a westerner, but you have to deal with it the best you can - and I think thats exactly what are OP is doing. He doesn't feel comfortable doing it, but under the circumstances of the society he's living in I think he's doing pretty well.


And sorry if that doesn't make sense cos I've had too much gin

 

[felixthecat]

If I set up a company employing 13 year olds girls which paid them the 'living wage' and still allowed them to attend school for six hours a week would that be a good thing then?
.

Ooops - sorry - I also meant to say no, of course its not a good thing, but its a bloody sight preferable to the alternatives this lass would have to deal with.

 

[scumbalina]

well you haven't read the thread for a start, people have been pointing this out to posters all the time, I'm sure it has been mentioned to yourself as well but with your hand wringing attitude it keeps missing, you have even compared this to female genital mutilation at one point.

I have read the thread, I just interpreted it differently to you. I don't think the reasons given are neccesarily strong enough to not pay the girl more in this particular instance and wondered what the OP thought of the idea, hence my question. His reasons for not wanting to pay her more might be different.

And on the subject of not reading things properly...I did not compare it to genitial mutilation, I used that as an example of a way in which cultural differences should not be used as an excuse for things that are morally wrong, I even clarified later on that I was not comparing the situations and that it was only relevant to that point in particular, which was a side issue.

Nor I have been hand wringing, I've conceeded that it's a difficult situation and that maybe my initial thoughts that it was 100% wrong may be incorrect.

 

[snadge]

I have read the thread, I just interpreted it differently to you. I don't think the reasons given are neccesarily strong enough to not pay the girl more in this particular instance and wondered what the OP thought of the idea, hence my question. His reasons for not wanting to pay her more might be different.

And on the subject of not reading things properly...I did not compare it to genitial mutilation, I used that as an example of a way in which cultural differences should not be used as an excuse for things that are morally wrong, I even clarified later on that I was not comparing the situations and that it was only relevant to that point in particular, which was a side issue.

Nor I have been hand wringing, I've conceeded that it's a difficult situation and that maybe my initial thoughts that it was 100% wrong may be incorrect.

No probs


There have been instances in both Indonesia and the Phillipines of people being killed due to working for high paying westerners, not because the killers disagree but so they can then work for the high paying westerner.

When I work abroad we employ local labour and we pay local rates, at the end of the job we give discreet bonuses to key workers, we also make sure their families are looked after, little things so that nobody can get jealous.

In some countries some people will do anything to pull themselves out of poverty and you have to be careful.

 

[lontok2005]

Like I said earlier, either child labour is okay or it isn't.

Equally, as I said earlier, I don't think children should have to work. But in a situation where they have no choice, where they have to be one of the breadwinners, what possible good does it do them, or their families, to deny them employment just so that we can feel comfortable that we have upheld some higher ideal? I fully look forward to a world in which the all countries have adopted laws that forbid children working, and a world in which no family has to send their children out to work simply in order to make ends meet, but the reality is such that in many countries this is not yet the case. Surely it is far worse to put our moral comfort first, and thereby jeapordise the financial wellbeing of a family, than to accept the fact that the current situation in Indonesia dictates that many children simply have to work, and then, having accepted that fact, to do the best one can to ensure that those children work in good conditions, that whatever schooling is available to them is not encroached upon, and that the wage they receive is reasonable? I absolutely fail to see where the OP is being inhumane, or forcing the girl in question into a labour against her will. Some people have complained that it sounds like Derf is 'doing the girl a favour'. Fuck me, would you not want a favour done you in such circumstances? Given the situation, where on earth is this girl losing out?

The fight for social justice shouldn't play itself out between employer and employee, but between those on the receiving end of poor policy and those that make and implememt those policies. As I've said before, point the finger of disapproval at the Indonesian government if you want a real solution to the issue of child labour. In the meantime, don't blame a man who is doing his best by a girl who, under the circumstances, has fewer opportunities for self-betterment than we in the UK take for granted.

 

[derf]

he's not being paid. He's not allowed to take on paid work either.


Basically their choice is take her on, pay her what they can, help her where they can with education, health, family etc.

OR

Not take her on, sleep soundly in their beds at night knowing that they haven't colluded in a culture of child labour, and while they sleep soundly, she can get work for £3 per month, not get any schooling at all, get married off and start producing more children that she can't afford. Yay for western liberal sensibilities! Result!

Basic but that's about the reality here.

I should note that her mother did come to the house and tell us that there was no need to send her to school but I insisted. The mother knew she would be better off with us than the alternatives available to her.

Just to confirm I have no income here and the school work is done as a social thing only.

 

[derf]

I've pulled out this old thread as something is happening in the village that brought it to mind.
A young girl of 14 years is getting married tomorrow. It's happening because the parents can't afford to keep her and she can't find work.
I'm unsure at this time how old the husband to be is but I'll find out and let you know if anyone is interested.
I'm told the girl does not want to be married and so it's enforced.
Last I heard this afternoon is that was was crying all the time.
When a wedding happens in the village everyone is supposed to go to the bride's house first and the groom's the next day. I have refused to attend either. (That's a big insult here).
I mention it as this is what would have happened to my maid (as was) if she had stayed at home.
So was I really so bad now you can see the alternative?

 

[Jessiedog]

The lowest, legal, marriageable age for girls in Indonesia (assuming they have parental consent,) is sixteen (16) years.

I do hope you grassed these irredeemable criminals to the authorities, derf.





Woof

 

[derf]

The lowest, legal, marriageable age for girls in Indonesia (assuming they have parental consent,) is sixteen (16) years.

I do hope you grassed these irredeemable criminals to the authorities, derf.





Woof

No point. They know about it.
I've just found out the bloke is about 35 or 36. All I can do is refuse to attend as I have.
Two doors away is another girl just about to turn 16. She's 8 months on now and has been married nine months. Her husband is about 20 but she wanted to get wed and seems very happy with life. She's always round here wanting to look after our sprog and always wears a big smile.
I don't have a problem with that one as all wanted it but this one is well off the rails.
It happens more often that you would think here when the family has nothing to live on and kids to look after.

It was the fate of the first girl that was to work here and would have happened to the one that did.

 

[RubyBlue]

I think you're just trying to justify your use of an underage girl as a maid - there were loads of other options you could have taken - as posted here at the time - such as contribute to her schooling - whatever don't know why you ressurected this thread - if I was you I'd've been happy to see it die.

 

[derf]

I think you're just trying to justify your use of an underage girl as a maid - there were loads of other options you could have taken - as posted here at the time - such as contribute to her schooling - whatever don't know why you ressurected this thread - if I was you I'd've been happy to see it die.

You just can't see it can you?
Yesterday my wife asked me to get some food from a new little kiosk opposite the house. Only been open a couple of days and it was the first time I've walked over.
It's owned by a 14 year old lad who also has no money to go to school but saved up enough to start a business by himself.
Now he's one of several in the village and a pile more in and around this area who just don't have the cash to pay school fees.
If you feel so strongly they should go to school come over here and pay for their education yourself. If you are on minimum wage you could pay a years fees, uniform etc for one kid every week but leave nothing for yourself.
That's 52 kids you could help out.
Of course you won't as armchair whining as as far as moaners like you with no idea of the reality of a situation ever get.

 

[Jessiedog]

You just can't see it can you?
Yesterday my wife asked me to get some food from a new little kiosk opposite the house. Only been open a couple of days and it was the first time I've walked over.
It's owned by a 14 year old lad who also has no money to go to school but saved up enough to start a business by himself.
Now he's one of several in the village and a pile more in and around this area who just don't have the cash to pay school fees.
If you feel so strongly they should go to school come over here and pay for their education yourself. If you are on minimum wage you could pay a years fees, uniform etc for one kid every week but leave nothing for yourself.
That's 52 kids you could help out.
Of course you won't as armchair whining as as far as moaners like you with no idea of the reality of a situation ever get.

"Look, mummy!"


"He's back again."

"Why doesn't he get it, mummy?"


"Why?"






"He's just so silly."





Woof