Good or bad?

[maomao]

teach her how to say hello, goodbye and do you want a bit of sucky-fucky mista?
.

That's just plain nasty. We're talking about a 13 year old so you're basically accusing him of being a nonce. Shows you up as a sexist and racist as well because that's where your mind automatically goes when you think of Asian women.

I'm with Thora, if you treat her as the big sister of the house it's not a huge problem for me. And I don't think it compares with sweatshops because while there's a suspicion oof taking advantage it's not exploitation in the economic sense.

 

[quimcunx]

I would have not employed a child to start with, but he could keep her as a babysitter and still pay her the same (ie babysitter, part time, can still attend school) as well as look for a full time adult nanny (who would be paid more)

She CAN still attend school, she attends all that is available to her and he is trying to get her more! The adult nanny would not be paid more. He has limited funds, as already covered in this thread.

Question for OP - is the rate you're paying her the same as you paid the adult nanny you had before?

He's already said she gets paid the same as an adult would get paid, and more than some, so probably yes.

I think he should acknowledge that what he is doing is wrong and unacceptable and maybe strokes his ego a bit but is life in Indonesia. His posting the quandry raises questions for me. Comes across as arrogant..

I see no arrogance in his posting. Seems to me he is aware that by western standards what he is doing is unnacceptable. Perhaps we should ask her and her family what they think??

 

[quimcunx]

Most people think child labour is unacceptable, even if you accept that in this situation it's the best case scenario for this girl, you can't say that's it's a good situation for her to be in.

The OP is not claiming the situation is a good one, just the best one available to her.

 

[maomao]

I would have not employed a child to start with, but he could keep her as a babysitter and still pay her the same (ie babysitter, part time, can still attend school) as well as look for a full time adult nanny (who would be paid more)

Given that he's said she comes from another village the live-in part of it might be a necessity. Is it commutable? Does she get to see her family regularly? I would imagine that regardless of the right and wrong of the situation the girl is pretty pleased about it. Does she seem happy?

 

[quimcunx]

Me too. It's a kid, ffs!

But lots of 13 year old children in this country, less so now but more when people had larger families, go to school 5 days a week, come home, do homework, do chores, and take a big role in looking after younger siblings.

 

[_angel_]

But lots of 13 year old children in this country, less so now but more when people had larger families, go to school 5 days a week, come home, do homework, do chores, and take a big role in looking after younger siblings.

She only goes for 6 hours a week and I can only assume that means she works pretty much fulltime. 13 yr olds in this country don't work fulltime jobs.

 

[lontok2005]

Most people think child labour is unacceptable, even if you accept that in this situation it's the best case scenario for this girl, you can't say that's it's a good situation for her to be in.

Given the society she is in, I would say she is in a good situation. She is receiving a certain amount of free schooling while at the same time earning a locally decent wage working for a family who treats her well.

The lack of better and longer free schooling is not Derf's fault. It's the responsibility of the Indonesian government to ensure that all children have access to a proper basic education. The fact that children have to work to support their families is not Derf's fault. Again, that's the responsibility of the government. Derf's not employing her is not going to make that situation any better. It will only make the girl's situation worse.

No, I don't think it's morally wrong. I think Derf is asking us for approval because he probably does feel a degree of discomfort about the situation, but that discomfort comes, I imagine, from trying to apply our values and mores to a very different set of cultural, social and economic circumstances. But he has to operate within those circumstances, and do the best he can within them. What's morally wrong, in my opinion, is the arrogance with which we Westerners so often believe that ours are the only values which count, and that every situation has to be measured by our standards.

 

[snadge]

She only goes for 6 hours a week and I can only assume that means she works pretty much fulltime. 13 yr olds in this country don't work fulltime jobs.

But they do in Indonesia, for a lot less money and with no schooling......

 

[Madusa]

But lots of 13 year old children in this country, less so now but more when people had larger families, go to school 5 days a week, come home, do homework, do chores, and take a big role in looking after younger siblings.

err, that's not the same thing! All children should have family and chore responsibilities within their own families, whether looking after their siblings, and other household chores. They do, however get to go to school full time, like all children should have access to.

Now, using the ''if I dont take her on, someone else will-for less money and harder work and at least she get's the privilige of sitting at our table to eat' doesnt make it right!

however the realities of this situ deems that she is not able to go to school as much as should be...however I dont think he should be looking at it like he's giving her major bonuses by enabling her meals with them and teaching her english...if he's of the mind to start a thread on this, he should be of the mind that this should be a given for a live-in maid.

If he really needs a maid and decides to take her on fully, he should be looking at maybe an extra hour a-day at least where she can be schooled by him and because she is obviously making their life a lot easier, he should be asking her and her family what he and his family can do to make things easier on them. Looking at a more fairer exchange perhaps.

 

[quimcunx]

Given the society she is in, I would say she is in a good situation. She is receiving a certain amount of free schooling while at the same time earning a locally decent wage working for a family who treats her well.

The lack of better and longer free schooling is not Derf's fault. It's the responsibility of the Indonesian government to ensure that all children have access to a proper basic education. The fact that children have to work to support their families is not Derf's fault. Again, that's the responsibility of the government. Derf's not employing iher s not going to make that situation any better. It will only make the girl's situation worse.

No, I don't think it's morally wrong. I think Derf is asking us for approval because he probably does feel a degree of discomfort about the situation, but that discomfort comes, I imagine, from trying to apply our values and mores to a very different set of cultural, social and economic circumstances. But he has to operate within those circumstances, and do the best he can within them. What's morally wrong, in my opinion, is the arrogance with which we Westerners so often believe that ours are the only values which count, and that every situation has to be measured by our standards.

Excellent post.

and the arrogance of people posting here that it is out and out wrong, when I'm willing to bet every single one of us is playing our part in exploiting child workforces. Out of sight, out of mind though, eh?

 

[scumbalina]

No, I don't think it's morally wrong. I think Derf is asking us for approval because he probably does feel a degree of discomfort about the situation, but that discomfort comes, I imagine, from trying to apply our values and mores to a very different set of cultural, social and economic circumstances.....What's morally wrong, in my opinion, is the arrogance with which we Westerners so often believe that ours are the only values which count, and that every situation has to be measured by our standards.

Nah, I don't buy into that.

It's not about West is best or anything like that, but the arguement of cultural imperialism gets used way too much to justify bullshit like child labour, female genitial mutilation, people being stoned to death etc, some things are just wrong.

 

[MightyAphrodite]

its a tough one really....i cant say i think youre wrong in trying to help her, the comment about eating at the same table was iffy!!....but i suppose you mean well right as far as employing her so she can get at least a bit of schooling and some pay????


paulies reply was well harsh tbf.

 

[quimcunx]

She gets free food that is far more and far better than she would be getting at home and a much nicer place to live.
She is treated very much as part of the family. She watches TV with us and eats at the same table. We don't want a slave but we find things much easier having another pair of hands in the house more so when Michelle plays up at night and we don't sleep.

I do not see what is wrong with this post. Seems like he is just trying to give a clear picture of her life with them, in case anyone was imagining her in a basement eating bread from the floor or owt.


also I note, someone was saying about looking after their own child, that he doesn't suggest at all that they fob night time baby antics onto anyone.

 

[lontok2005]

Nah, I don't buy into that.

It's not about West is best or anything like that, but the arguement of cultural imperialism gets used way too much to justify bullshit like child labour, female genitial mutilation, people being stoned to death etc, some things are just wrong.

Don't be so ridiculous. You can't equate a situation like this, where the girl is not being forced to work for Derf, with the abuses you mention. This girl is not being denied any rights by Derf as far as I can see. He's not keeping her out of school, is he? The economic situation of her family might force her to seek employment, but as I said, the responsibility for rectifying that siuation lies in the hands of the government. Yes, they absolutely should ensure that all children have a proper education. Yes, they absolutely should ensure that children don't have to work. So point the finger of disapproval at them, not at Derf.

 

[ymu]

Nah, I don't buy into that.

It's not about West is best or anything like that, but the arguement of cultural imperialism gets used way too much to justify bullshit like child labour, female genitial mutilation, people being stoned to death etc, some things are just wrong.

Noone's justifying child labour!

Firstly, he didn't know he was employing a child until she turned up - hence his dilemma. Secondly, he's talking about a context where the girl would have to earn a wage one way or another. Most likely a lower wage in a harder job that wouldn't give her as much time off for education and wouldn't include bed and board.

Child labour is not going to disappear overnight, and many families are still dependent on the incomes their children bring in. It's not right, but that's where the economic infrastructure in Indonesia is right now.

I think people may be misreading the comment about her eating at the same table. I read it that he was emphasising that it was not the stereotypical situation of "upstairs/downstairs" that some might be imagining, not pointing out that he gives her such "priveleges".

 

[quimcunx]

err, that's not the same thing! All children should have family and chore responsibilities within their own families, whether looking after their siblings, and other household chores. They do, however get to go to school full time, like all children should have access to.

Now, using the ''if I dont take her on, someone else will-for less money and harder work and at least she get's the privilige of sitting at our table to eat' doesnt make it right!

however the realities of this situ deems that she is not able to go to school as much as should be...however I dont think he should be looking at it like he's giving her major bonuses by enabling her meals with them and teaching her english...if he's of the mind to start a thread on this, he should be of the mind that this should be a given for a live-in maid.

If he really needs a maid and decides to take her on fully, he should be looking at maybe an extra hour a-day at least where she can be schooled by him and because she is obviously making their life a lot easier, he should be asking her and her family what he and his family can do to make things easier on them. Looking at a more fairer exchange perhaps.

I'm comparing workloads, that's not so different. Sounds like she can best be of help to her family by having this job, rather than being at home doing chores there. Or the family would have kept her at home.

He's operating within the constraints of the situation in Indonesia. What would be right? No one has come up with an answer to this yet..

you don't know what the 'given' is for a live in maid in Indonesia.

he is looking to more schooling from him and elsewhere, and looking to make things easier for her and her family...

 

[scumbalina]

Don't be so ridiculous. You can't equate a situation like this, where the girl is not being forced to work for Derf, with the abuses you mention. This girl is not being denied any rights by Derf as far as I can see. He's not keeping her out of school, is he? The economic situation of her family might force her to seek employment, but as I said, the responsibility for rectifying that is in the hands of the government. Yes, they absolutely should ensure that all children have a proper education. Yes, they bsolutely should ensure that children don't have to work. So point the finger of disapproval at them, not at Derf.

I wasn't equating those situations at all, I was explaining why I don't hold with the idea that we shouldn't question things that we think are wrong just because it's in another part of the world.

 

[Madusa]

If derf was still in the UK though, would he have hired a nanny at this point, that's what I want to know........

 

[lontok2005]

I wasn't equating those situations at all, I was explaining why I don't hold with the idea that we shouldn't question things that we think are wrong just because it's in another part of the world.

Okay, but what's wrong? The situation that forces her to work to support her family or Derf's employing her on a decent wage? I would say the former. If he doesn't employ her, somebody else will, and probably at a lower wage and quite possibly in less favourable conditions. Children shouldn't have to work, I quite agree, but in a situation where they have no choice, it does them or their families no good whatsoever to deny them employment just to stick to a higher ideal.

 

[quimcunx]

If his income was equable, quite probably, lots of people do, if not on a nanny, then other 'help' so they can concentrate on the baby.


Looking after a baby is knackering. My sis in law is nearing the end of her maternity leave and she looks and is absolutely knackered. They put their ironing out to be done the other week, and quite frankly they should have a regular cleaner or some such, as they are cash rich but time poor. They could be paying money to someone who needs the cash that they don't.

 

[Madusa]

I'm comparing workloads, that's not so different. Sounds like she can best be of help to her family by having this job, rather than being at home doing chores there. Or the family would have kept her at home.

He's operating within the constraints of the situation in Indonesia. What would be right? No one has come up with an answer to this yet..

you don't know what the 'given' is for a live in maid in Indonesia.

he is looking to more schooling from him and elsewhere, and looking to make things easier for her and her family...

Yeah, you're right I dont know what the given is for a maid in Indonesia, but what the norms are in a country I happen to reside in wouldnt dictate how I treat people i happen across in my day to day life.

And yes, I believe someone living in and working for me full time should be given meals and be helped taught english. People are people no matter the harsh social and economic climate.

 

[quimcunx]

Yeah, you're right I dont know what the given is for a maid in Indonesia, but what the norms are in a country I happen to reside in wouldnt dictate how I treat people i happen across in my day to day life. .

And they are not dictating Derf's treatment of this girl. But also if you try to apply your own country's economic and social structure when elsewhere be ready for.....

Doing things differently from how the local market operates may throw up some odd side effects.

As I have mentioned, doing that can lead to all sorts of repercussions in third world countries, sometimes injury and death from others who can see a quick buck to be made.

He is already paying her 4* the going rate.

 

[Madusa]

For me, economic and social structures doesnt come into giving someone who's working full time for me in my home a meal, but there you go.

I'm leaving this thread now...derf's going to make his own decisions about this. It's made me think, but Papingo, you have really fucking shocked me. Hey ho.

 

[quimcunx]

For me, economic and social structures doesnt come into giving someone who's working full time for me in my home a meal, but there you go.

I'm leaving this thread now...derf's going to make his own decisions about this. It's made me think, but Papingo, you have really fucking shocked me. Hey ho.

Maybe read my posts from the beginning of this thread? Where have I ever said I don't think he should give her a meal in his home?

 

[stretchy18]

Given the society she is in, I would say she is in a good situation. She is receiving a certain amount of free schooling while at the same time earning a locally decent wage working for a family who treats her well.

The lack of better and longer free schooling is not Derf's fault. It's the responsibility of the Indonesian government to ensure that all children have access to a proper basic education. The fact that children have to work to support their families is not Derf's fault. Again, that's the responsibility of the government. Derf's not employing her is not going to make that situation any better. It will only make the girl's situation worse.

No, I don't think it's morally wrong. I think Derf is asking us for approval because he probably does feel a degree of discomfort about the situation, but that discomfort comes, I imagine, from trying to apply our values and mores to a very different set of cultural, social and economic circumstances. But he has to operate within those circumstances, and do the best he can within them. What's morally wrong, in my opinion, is the arrogance with which we Westerners so often believe that ours are the only values which count, and that every situation has to be measured by our standards.

That is the most sensible post on this thread. Some posters need to move away from the handwringing moralising and get in touch with reality

If derf treats the kid with total respect and doesn't develop an "Oldschool" colonial attitude to her, what is the issue?

Overpaying local workers (relative to average competitive wages) out of some sort of cultural guilt leads to very practical problems locally

 

[story]

That is the most sensible post on this thread. Some posters need to move away from the handwringing moralising and get in touch with reality

If derf treats the kid with total respect and doesn't develop an "Oldschool" colonial attitude to her, what is the issue?

Overpaying local workers (relative to average competitive wages) out of some sort of cultural guilt leads to very practical problems locally

This is an important point.

 

[scumbalina]

What about working out what percentage of your household income a similar maid would take in the UK, then paying her that?

 

[maomao]

What about working out what percentage of your household income a similar maid would take in the UK, then paying her that?

What if that's less? Should they pay her less?

 

[scumbalina]

What if that's less? Should they pay her less?

I'm guessing it wouldn't be otherwise I'm sure the OP would have not been in such a quandry if he was on a similar type of income, but yeah, that is something to consider

 

[felixthecat]

Don't be so ridiculous. You can't equate a situation like this, where the girl is not being forced to work for Derf, with the abuses you mention. This girl is not being denied any rights by Derf as far as I can see. He's not keeping her out of school, is he? The economic situation of her family might force her to seek employment, but as I said, the responsibility for rectifying that siuation lies in the hands of the government. Yes, they absolutely should ensure that all children have a proper education. Yes, they absolutely should ensure that children don't have to work. So point the finger of disapproval at them, not at Derf.

That is the most sensible post on this thread. Some posters need to move away from the handwringing moralising and get in touch with reality

If derf treats the kid with total respect and doesn't develop an "Oldschool" colonial attitude to her, what is the issue?

Overpaying local workers (relative to average competitive wages) out of some sort of cultural guilt leads to very practical problems locally

Ain't that the truth?

Yeah a 13 year old should be in school full time, but the social structure of the country she lives in dictates otherwise. She has a job which earns her a living wage in her local economy and stops her from ending up either a) being married off early cos her parents can't keep her, most likely against her will, b)she ends up having to work somewhere wher she won't get any schooling and will probably be earning less, or c) like so many lasses in that part of the world, ending up being a sex trade statistic.

I once employed a 16 yr old who left school at 14 cos she had a kid - in some parts of the world you aren't allowed back to school if you become pregnant. So she worked for me for 2 years and we got on very well. She could support herself and her son and not have to put up with some bloke ill treating her just cos he could give her a few dollars.

Some of you need to some of you think outside of your narrow uk experience, and understand the realiities of living in a less developed country.