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Good or bad?

Papingo said:
How would that help this girl? Bearing in mind that hiring one of her parents is out of the question, as dealt with earlier in the thread.
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he doesn't have to hire one of her parents, there must be other adults who'd do the work seeing as he hired one in the first place. Anf if her family are so poor, I'm sure if he offered a fairer wage the mother would consider swap working in a craker factory.

I don't understand how this is seen as different to Gap hiring kids as was mentioned earlier? Lots of sweat shops justify their actions in the same ways, saying they're allowing the kids to be educated for a few hours a week, that they get a better wage than they would elsewhere etc, doen't make it ok.
 
snadge said:
agreed, they seem to think that marrying the girl off is somehow better than doing what derf is doing.
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Yes, that's exactly what people have said.

No, people have said she should be paid a fairer wage and that he should try and hire an adult instead.

i just think the OP comes across as uncomfortable with the situation, and sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself by making it sound like he's doing her a favour
 
scumbalina said:
he doesn't have to hire one of her parents, there must be other adults who'd do the work seeing as he hired one in the first place. Anf if her family are so poor, I'm sure if he offered a fairer wage the mother would consider swap working in a craker factory.

I don't understand how this is seen as different to Gap hiring kids as was mentioned earlier? Lots of sweat shops justify their actions in the same ways, saying they're allowing the kids to be educated for a few hours a week, that they get a better wage than they would elsewhere etc, doen't make it ok.
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So you feel that derf should just sack the youngun' and employ an adult for the same money, which is a good wage for the job in that country.

One thing you must understand is when you are in foreign countries that pay shite wages is that you must pay people within that framework, otherwise people get hurt, this is not a joke....

meaning that the 13 yr old girl will have to go and work in a harder job, for less money with no education, getting married of before her 16th birthday.
 
I don't know. Maybe I am old fashioned but if my baby cried at night I would get up and tend to the child myself. I mean that's why I had the child after all. I would not expect a teenager from the local village who I paid tuppence to do all this for me and keep my wife company during the day. Sounds like the move to Indonesia was a slightly selfish one.
 
scumbalina said:
he doesn't have to hire one of her parents, there must be other adults who'd do the work seeing as he hired one in the first place. Anf if her family are so poor, I'm sure if he offered a fairer wage the mother would consider swap working in a craker factory.
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She doesn't work in a cracker factory, it is their own family business. Read the thread.


scumbalina said:
I don't understand how this is seen as different to Gap hiring kids as was mentioned earlier? Lots of sweat shops justify their actions in the same ways, saying they're allowing the kids to be educated for a few hours a week, that they get a better wage than they would elsewhere etc, doen't make it ok.
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Gap et al generally pay the minimum wage, not a living wage. there is a difference, often the education and other benefits are just lies.

so many people saying Derf is wrong to do what he is doing, but not one has come up with a workable plan for him to improve this girl's life without employing her, as he is doing now.
 
snadge said:
So you feel that derf should just sack the youngun' and employ an adult for the same money.

meaning that the 13 yr old girl will have to go and work in a harder job, for less money with no education, getting married of before her 16th birthday.
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Thinking about it, I suppose you're right, if he has got this particular girls best interests at heart (although I still think it sounds like he has his own comfort at heart), this wouldn't be the best course of action.

But I also don't think that 6 hours of schooling a week and that income is appropriate either.
 
scumbalina said:
i just think the OP comes across as uncomfortable with the situation, and sounds like he's trying to justify it to himself by making it sound like he's doing her a favour
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I would also be uncomfortable but only because western society would frown upon it WITHOUT understanding the bigger picture of what it is like in these countries.
 
Homeless Mal said:
I don't know. Maybe I am old fashioned but if my baby cried at night I would get up and tend to the child myself. I mean that's why I had the child after all. I would not expect a teenager from the local village who I paid tuppence to do all this for me and keep my wife company during the day. Sounds like the move to the far east was a slightly selfish one.
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Have you considered reading the thread?

Lot's of people have nannies and home help in this country. Still, but less so now, people have quite a few children and the older ones would do chores and look after the younger children too.
 
Papingo said:
Have you considered reading the thread?

Lot's of people have nannies and home help in this country. Still, but less so now, people have quite a few children and the older ones would do chores and look after the younger children too.
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I have read the thread. I think this guy is slightly flattered he has a live in maid even though it is in a country that is still developing and in many parts and villages still third world .
 
Homeless Mal said:
I have read the thread. I think this guy is slightly flattered he has a live in maid even though it is in a country that is still developing and in many parts and villages still third world .
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Agreed. It's a difficult position for derf as well, but I for one am not gonna pat this guy on the back for buying the kid a school uniform and letting her ''eat at the same table''.
 
To Scumbalina:

I've said what I thought in my first post. I don't think he's exploiting this girl. That is what lay behind my comment about sweatshops. If we're going to talk about exploitation, then let's talk about real exploitation: under-the-poverty-line wages, inhumane working conditions, backbreaking labour, brutal regimes, in some cases forced labour. None of which I see in Derf's situation with this girl.
 
lontok2005 said:
To Scumbalina:

I've said what I thought in my first post. I don't think he's exploiting this girl. That is what lay behind my comment about sweatshops. If we're going to talk about exploitation, then let's talk about real exploitation: under-the-poverty-line wages, inhumane working conditions, backbreaking labour, brutal regimes, in some cases forced labour. None of which I see in Derf's situation with this girl.
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Well, if what he's doing feels right why did he start the thread entitled ''good or bad?' :confused:

It already seems like he's made his choice...what else is there left to debate?
 
Madusa said:
Agreed. It's a difficult position for derf as well, but I for one am not gonna pat this guy on the back for buying the kid a school uniform and letting her ''eat at the same table''.
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I think that's the thing that's made me the most uncomfortable about the whole thread, how he's singled out stuff like that as bonuses...

Maybe it's not actually the scenario I'm so uncomfortable with as his attitude :hmm: *ponders*

It's a difficult one
 
derf said:
That is an female adult wage here for doing the same or a much harder job. I'm told her last job paid 3 quid a month and much harder work.
Many blokes in the village earn about the same or not much more. It's crap especially with the price of rice going up so much but that's how it is out here.
She gets free food that is far more and far better than she would be getting at home and a much nicer place to live.
She is treated very much as part of the family. She watches TV with us and eats at the same table. We don't want a slave but we find things much easier having another pair of hands in the house more so when Michelle plays up at night and we don't sleep.
It's also handy when I go to local schools helping with spoken English. It means that my wife isn't alone in the house.

As for the school that's the only free schooling available here but I'm trying to get the teachers at one of the schools I've been helping out at to give her lessons instead of paying me when I go.
The free school is paid for by doing handycrafts at home that the teachers sell to pay themselves and rent to school buildings.
Many teachers here get about 12 quid a month as well. a good one will get double that.
I'm not allowed to do paid work here on my visa so that may be handy for us all.
I'm about the same on kids working Charie but in a place like this choices are limited. Think of the bright side. The kid had very few clothes to bring with her and we bought her a school uniform so she could start attending school again.
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For anyone who missed it, 6 hours per week is the most free schooling she can get. Derf is trying to barter more lessons for her in exchange for his teaching.

It's an uncomfortable situation, but I think the OP is dealing with it fairly well given that he doesn't have a large income himself. It sounds half-way to adoption to me. As long as she's treated as part of the family and given plenty of time to herself, and a better education and standard of living than she could get otherwise, I think it's reasonable.

If she has to send most of her money home, you could maybe consider putting aside a couple of quid extra to give her as a lump sum when she's older, to help her make her own choices later in life.
 
scumbalina said:
I think that's the thing that's made me the most uncomfortable about the whole thread, how he's singled out stuff like that as bonuses...

Maybe it's not actually the scenario I'm so uncomfortable with as his attitude :hmm: *ponders*

It's a difficult one
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Me too. It's a kid, ffs!
 
But it's not like he announced these 'bonuses' in the OP, they came out in the discussion.

With the exception of several of us mentioning getting her more education (which he is trying to sort out) and paying her more money (which he has explained he already pays 4 times what she would normally get and that, despite being from the West, he doesn not have unlimited funds so more money means a shorter timescale) no one has suggested so much as one thing he can practically do that would improve this girl's life more than he has already. So if you can happily tell him that he is doing is wrong within the context of the reality he is living in, please someone tell him what the 'right' thing is?
 
Papingo said:
But it's not like he announced these 'bonuses' in the OP, they came out in the discussion.

With the exception of several of us mentioning getting her more education (which he is trying to sort out) and paying her more money (which he has explained he already pays 4 times what she would normally get and that, despite being from the West, he doesn not have unlimited funds so more money means a shorter timescale) no one has suggested so much as one thing he can practically do that would improve this girl's life more than he has already. So if you can happily tell him that he is doing is wrong within the context of the reality he is living in, please someone tell him what the 'right' thing is?
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I agree, the only advice has been to sack the young'un and employ an adult thus leaving the girl having to do a harder job for less money with no schooling and the huge chance that she would be married off within a year.

idiots.
 
I think he should acknowledge that what he is doing is wrong and unacceptable and maybe strokes his ego a bit but is life in Indonesia. His posting the quandry raises questions for me. Comes across as arrogant.

Don't take the piss out of the Indonesian people cos it will come back and bite you in the ass.
 
I would have not employed a child to start with, but he could keep her as a babysitter and still pay her the same (ie babysitter, part time, can still attend school) as well as look for a full time adult nanny (who would be paid more)
 
_angel_ said:
I would have not employed a child to start with, but he could keep her as a babysitter and still pay her the same (ie babysitter, part time, can still attend school) as well as look for a full time adult nanny (who would be paid more)
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that seems a good plan all round
 
scumbalina said:
@ snadge Well no, lots of people have suggested keeping her on but paying her more
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As I have mentioned, doing that can lead to all sorts of repercussions in third world countries, sometimes injury and death from others who can see a quick buck to be made.

He is already paying her 4* the going rate.
 
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