goldie to support sex pistols

[editor]

Siouxsie's been saying that for the past 30 years. But she not only wore the armband, she wrote the lyric about "too many Jews". When pulled up about it said that she meant dodgy business men- which didn't exactly help.

So you're saying she was actually pro-fascist and for the final solution or something then, yes?

So how long did she wear a swastika for? And how old was she at the time? And why are you focussing on one extremely minor (and long forgotten) Ants song?

What about the Clash, the Buzzcocks, TRB, Slits, X Ray Spex, Ruts and the rest of them? I was in a punk band and supporting anti-racism came with the territory as far as I was concerned (although I've no doubt that there were some racists on the scene).

But no doubt you'll tell me that you know better.

 

[editor]

My (Welsh punk) step brother was banned from our house for a few years for wearing a daft swastika - it's bollocks to suggest that people didn't realise its relevance back then, nor should any shitty excuses be made.

And what year was this?

 

[tarannau]

He's 14 years older than me and I remember being a nipper , so we're probably looking at nigh on 25 years or so.

TBH I just remember he stopped turning up at w/es for cook ups and I had to ask why. I was always kind of fascinated by his unusual clothes and rock hard (set with shampoo) spiked mohican at the time.

 

[editor]

He's 14 years older than me and I remember being a nipper , so we're probably looking at nigh on 25 years or mo.

You won't hear me trying to excuse anyone wearing a swastika past the intial shock-frenzy of punk of 76/77 - and even then it was a fucking stupid thing to do.

Your step brother must have been seriously twp to go around with a swastika in 1982. Or a die hard racist twat.

 

[Pigeon]

So you're saying she was actually pro-fascist and for the final solution or something then, yes?

I'm saying that there was some extremely dubious imagery being flirted with when punk started and that, despite the fact that the historical consensus is now that punk was always anti-racist, it wasn't necessarily so, and there was s truggle within the movement itself.

So how long did she wear a swastika for? And how old was she at the time? And why are you focussing on one extremely minor (and long forgotten) Ants song?

She was young: I have no idea how old. Maybe the nazi flirtation was a youthful mistake, fair enough. But that's a bit different from the claim that it was all only a jke designed to piss off mummy and daddy. As for the focus on one Ants' song, fine. So how about the Art Attacks' "Arabs in 'Arrods", the Cortinas' "Fascist Dictator", the Stranglers' aforementioned "I feel like a wog", Sham 69 fans' chant "What have we got? Fuck all! National Front!". All of this existed, like it or not.

What about the Clash, the Buzzcocks, TRB, Slits, X Ray Spex, Ruts and the rest of them? I was in a punk band and supporting anti-racism came with the territory as far as I was concerned

I've made no attempt to deny any of that: it's just that it wasn't the whole story.

But no doubt you'll tell me that you know better.

All I'm saying is that Belsen possibly wasn't a gas.

 

[editor]

She was young: I have no idea how old. Maybe the nazi flirtation was a youthful mistake, fair enough. But that's a bit different from the claim that it was all only a jke designed to piss off mummy and daddy. As for the focus on one Ants' song, fine. So how about the Art Attacks' "Arabs in 'Arrods", the Cortinas' "Fascist Dictator", the Stranglers' aforementioned "I feel like a wog",

I think you need to brush up on your punk history and read past the headlines. And then take off your PC goggles and look at what was going on in the context of the attitudes - and the language - prevalent at the time.

http://www.punk77.co.uk/groups/songs_lyrics.htm

So back to d'n'b. Could you give me some examples of successful charting acts dealing with homophobia, racism, sexism and the like?

 

[Pavlik]

Ah, but there was great empathy though: I mean, that bloke out of the Stranglers said he felt "like a wog".

we were banned from listening to the stranglers in our house because we lived with a few extreme feminists who objected to lines like 'walking down the beaches, looking at the peaches

 

[Pigeon]

I think you need to brush up on your punk history...

I'm quoting old Ants and Art Attacks songs and you're accusing me of being insufficiently steeped in punk history...?

 

[Kanda]

Anyone know what sort of time the Pistols come on? Going tonight.

 

[Dubversion]

we were banned from listening to the stranglers in our house because we lived with a few extreme feminists who objected to lines like 'walking down the beaches, looking at the peaches

or perhaps lines like

Yeah she's the queen of the street
What a piece of meat

bunch of neanderthal cunts.

 

[Mation]

Nah. I was going to d'n'b clubs when the scene started up and it was as exciting as fuck, but there is no way on earth it had anywhere near the same impact or lasting influence as punk.

On you.

I'm not the best person to talk about the legacies of punk or dnb, but your feeling that punk was hugely significant and dnb not a patch probably has a teensy bit to do with your age, no? You were young and impressionable when punk hit, and so nothing would have the same impact, would it?

 

[ouchmonkey]

So back to d'n'b. Could you give me some examples of successful charting acts dealing with homophobia, racism, sexism and the like?

the main problem with this whole argument here is that d'n'b does not have that kind of ready lyrical text. It is at it's best without any vocals IMO.
to suggest that that makes it apolitical or empty is just ridiculous.

As far as i'm aware it's yet to spawn a vicious little brother worthy of comparison with OI! either.

 

[Pigeon]

the main problem with this whole argument here is that d'n'b does not have that kind of ready lyrical text. It is at it's best without any vocals IMO.
to suggest that that makes it apolitical or empty is just ridiculous.

As far as i'm aware it's yet to spawn a vicious little brother worthy of comparison with OI! either.

Yes and yes.

 

[editor]

the main problem with this whole argument here is that d'n'b does not have that kind of ready lyrical text. It is at it's best without any vocals IMO.
to suggest that that makes it apolitical or empty is just ridiculous.

I don't think anyone's argued that it's "empty" or "apolitical" but I'm trying to understand the basis for the argument that it's as politically significant as punk.

You don't have to sing a song to make your political opinion heard, so where's the d'n'b equivalents of the Rock Against Racism gigs, The Slits or 'Glad To Be Gay"?

As far as i'm aware it's yet to spawn a vicious little brother worthy of comparison with OI! either.

That's kinda irrelevant, really.

 

[editor]

I'm not the best person to talk about the legacies of punk or dnb, but your feeling that punk was hugely significant and dnb not a patch probably has a teensy bit to do with your age, no? You were young and impressionable when punk hit, and so nothing would have the same impact, would it?

Well, try this. Do searches for the following:

punk and feminism
d'n'b and feminism
punk and anti-racism
d'n'b and anti-racism/homphobia/gay rights etc etc

...and see what comes up.

Oh, and I fucking loved drum and bass when it kicked off in the early nineties and know exactly how exciting it was.

I felt it was as much 'my scene' as punk was, but looking back I really can't see its political and cultural legacy matching that of punk.

That's not to say it has no legacy, but I really don't believe that in, say, 25 years time, it will appear anywhere near as culturally significant as the punk movement.

 

[ouchmonkey]

That's kinda irrelevant, really.

maybe. but it was fun to point out.
and I'm not entirely sure it is irrelevant.
If there was a shadow racist form of d'n'b I've really no doubt it would be opposed in a similar fashion - but there is no need.
It seems to fair to argue that this is more than dumb luck but related to the innate political, if you must, nature of the beast

also what is the political significance of punk as opposed to social or cultural?
can we point to legislation it brought about for the betterment of our nation?

 

[Dubversion]

I don't think anyone's argued that it's "empty" or "apolitical" but I'm trying to understand the basis for the argument that it's as politically significant as punk.

You don't have to sing a song to make your political opinion heard, so where's the d'n'b equivalents of the Rock Against Racism gigs, The Slits or 'Glad To Be Gay"? That's kinda irrelevant, really.

you're still trying to make a comparison that just doesn't work. The two things exist in different times and cultural environments, so any direct comparison of impact, importance, repercussions etc are totally invalid.

 

[editor]

also what is the political significance of punk as opposed to social or cultural?
can we point to legislation it brought about for the betterment of our nation?

I'm sure there's been several weighty tomes on that very subject, but personally I certainly know a fair few people who'd say that punk provided a positive political influence on their lives which manifested itself later in the 'grown up world'.

This website certainly wouldn't be here if it wasn't for punk, neither would have I got involved in anti racist campaigning. Or running a free club, for what it's worth.

But if you're looking for the details of the Punk Rock Act of 1978, I can't help you there, squire.

 

[Pavlik]

bunch of neanderthal cunts.

maybe,

but golden brown, something better change, straighten out, nice and sleezy, walk on by,strange little girl, etc
sounded amazing to my young ears

 

[editor]

you're still trying to make a comparison that just doesn't work. The two things exist in different times and cultural environments, so any direct comparison of impact, importance, repercussions etc are totally invalid.

I'm wasn't looking for "direct comparisons" - I was asking for "equivalents."

I'd say it's a valid question considering some of the arguments being presented here.

 

[Dubversion]

I'm wasn't looking for "direct comparisons" - I was asking for "equivalents."

I'd say it's a valid question considering the arguments being presented here.

but there probably isn't an equivalent. Every era is different, punk wouldn't have the same impact now that it did then. You're trying to beat d&b with an innapropriate stick.

or something

 

[editor]

or perhaps lines like


bunch of neanderthal cunts.

Sadly, there's no shortage of lines every bit as bad as that - and worse -in modern songs.

Thirty years on from punk and some people think it's hip to dance to songs about executing gays and shooting people for disrespecting their shoes or whatever. It's really quite depressing.

 

[editor]

but there probably isn't an equivalent. Every era is different, punk wouldn't have the same impact now that it did then. You're trying to beat d&b with an innapropriate stick.

I'm not trying to "beat d&b". I'm just doubting its overall cultural and political importance in the grand scheme of things.

But I'm bored with talking about it now.

 

[JoePolitix]

Feed back

In fairness, neither has drum and bass had an equivalent to Siouxise Sioux and Sidney Vish twatting around in swastikas or moaning about there being "too many Jews for my liking." Nor has Grooverider followed Adam Ant's lead by advising his fans to "Light up a Beacon on a Puerto Rican". DJ Hype has not gone on record as sharing Ian Curtis' fond memories of Rudolph Hess and the genre as a whole is unlikely ever to be played at an NF sponsored Rock Against Communism event.

Don't get me wrong: I love loads of punk stuff, but the movement came out of a confused, polarised times and its content reflected that. The airbrushed consensus depiction of punk as wholly and intrinsically "progressive" is inaccurate and disingenuous, IMVHO.

Excellent post.

 

[Doctor Carrot]

Political comparisons aside I think a dnb act supporting the pistols is an excellent choice. I think there's many musical similarities between the 2, they're both raw, dirty and fast genres of music and they both have the DIY feel that's been mentioned. For evidence that the 2 work together listen to aaron spectre's punk amens, not the standard dnb beat of kick, snare, chatter, kick, snare but you'll get the picture .

 

[Mation]

but there probably isn't an equivalent. Every era is different, punk wouldn't have the same impact now that it did then. You're trying to beat d&b with an innapropriate stick.

or something

Well, try this. Do searches for the following:

punk and feminism
d'n'b and feminism
punk and anti-racism
d'n'b and anti-racism/homphobia/gay rights etc etc

...and see what comes up.

Oh, and I fucking loved drum and bass when it kicked off in the early nineties and know exactly how exciting it was.

I felt it was as much 'my scene' as punk was, but looking back I really can't see its political and cultural legacy matching that of punk.

That's not to say it has no legacy, but I really don't believe that in, say, 25 years time, it will appear anywhere near as culturally significant as the punk movement.

I wasn't suggesting you were too old to love new music, just that it's less likely to shape you later on.

 

[ouchmonkey]

This website certainly wouldn't be here if it wasn't for punk, neither would have I got involved in anti racist campaigning. Or running a free club, for what it's worth.

But if you're looking for the details of the Punk Rock Act of 1978, I can't help you there, squire.

so you're saying your evidence for it's impact is largely anecdotal or subjective.
that it changed people's lives and/or thinking, led them to do different things.
I don't for one second doubt the truth of that.
but it is exactly the same claim people would make for the impact of, say, d'n'b on themselves at a young and impressionable age isn't it?

 

[editor]

so you're saying your evidence for it's impact is largely anecdotal or subjective.
that it changed people's lives and/or thinking, led them to do different things.
I don't for one second doubt the truth of that.
but it is exactly the same claim people would make for the impact of, say, d'n'b on themselves at a young and impressionable age isn't it?

As well as anecdotal evidence, I can point to loads of studies and books about the impact of punk on feminism, racism and politics. I can point to songs like 'Glad To Be Gay' or look up reports from the massive Rock Against Racism gigs.

Whatcha got for d'n'b then?

 

[editor]

Oh, and last night it has to be said that the vast majority of the crowd failed spectacularly to find any link between the Pistols and Goldie, with a rousing chorus of "Who the fucking hell are you?" ringing around the Academy.

But I suspect it wasn't the most discerning of crowds.

 

[ouchmonkey]

Whatcha got for d'n'b then?

anecdotal evidence

But I suspect it wasn't the most discerning of crowds.

nor diverse either i'd wager. - you can sloganeer all you like about Rock Against Racism. and a good thing it was too
doesn't change the fact that the audience for punk is mostly white....

there's saying. and there's doing.

or something, to be honest I can't be arsed but I am becoming increasingly
tired of the amount of cultural space an entirely spent, co-opted and commodified force is still able to take up. particularly, as others have pointed out on here, in the form of a sanitised and edited narrative.
Old punks can now afford nice CD reissues, coffee table photo books and pricey tickets to Mr. Lydon's panto.
all well and good but entirely of a piece with the continuing story of the Rolling Stones or the latest reappearance of the bloody Eagles.
the reverence is almost antithetical to it's original cultural thrust and so on