Golden Compass *SPOILERS*

[Melinda]

Sorry Soj. Im passionate about HDM, about the story outline, the hundreds of tiny perfect details which fill it out so beautifully, about the wider reading it encourages and the discussions about ideas it provokes.

The film did none of that for me. They stripped the magic out, all the subtlety and ideas merely hinted at in the book were trampled over with massive clod-hopping boots. Why all the messing with the book's timelines? The ending?! It was an abomination.

There were wonderful small touches of finesse and of course bears were fantastic, at once powerful and menacing and yet Iorek was also beautiful. I dont think casting or acting was the issue- it was a massive script problem.

 

[scifisam]

Perhaps they left the ending out so that Lyra is in more of the second film. I must say that, when I was reading it, I kept wondering if we were ever going to get back to the story of Lyra, that I'd been enjoying before.

@Melinda - those hundreds of tiny details just can't be put into a film, and films do tend to be a lot less subtle too; visual media inevitably are. You have to think of it as a different version of the same basic story.

 

[Melinda]

I understand not every thing can go into the film, but jeez the essence of the film, its light magic touch- it was ruined.

Basic things like Bolvangar not being scary. The staff there weren't frightening zombies. No time was taken to set the place up so an audience would be concerned for the kids' safety. Unless you had read the book, you wouldnt know what peril those kids were supposed to be in.

The Gyptians were right out of panto!

Lord Asriel- his sheer strength of character, his determination- where was it?

Mrs Coulter slapping her own daemon?! For jealousy?! Daemons arent pets!

Magisterium lacked subtley- just comedy villains. There was no sense of peril in the film, no risk.

Lee Scoresby was cracking- he was just about perfect, most of the casting was-I just wish they'd had more to work with.

 

[Gromit]

Its been a long time since I read the books and I read all three in one go. So I'm not sure what they missed out as i forget where one book ends and the others start.

Is it what Lord A does with what Lyra brings him, what he needs (trying not to spoil it despite the spoiler warning seeing as no one else has said outright what should happen)?

If so I'm not surprised they decided to end the first on a high note rather than a nasty note which couldn't be turned into a clear cut cliff hanger.

 

[scifisam]

I understand not every thing can go into the film, but jeez the essence of the film, its light magic touch- it was ruined.

Basic things like Bolvangar not being scary. The staff there weren't frightening zombies. No time was taken to set the place up so an audience would be concerned for the kids' safety. Unless you had read the book, you wouldnt know what peril those kids were supposed to be in.

I was surprised that they didn't mention that the staff had had their demons severed. It was scary enough in itself, though, because of what we knew was going to happen there - you knew about the severing of souls in the film.

Lord Asriel- his sheer strength of character, his determination- where was it?

Yeah, he was a bit weak. As someone else said above, he was far too nice.

Mrs Coulter slapping her own daemon?! For jealousy?! Daemons arent pets!

That really worked for me. She was beating her own soul; scary idea.

Magisterium lacked subtley- just comedy villains. There was no sense of peril in the film, no risk.

My daughter leapt out of her seat at a few points.

I think one of the problems, also, is that this book can be read on so many levels. I've read children's reviews of the book which seemed to completely focus on the adventure and miss out the religion bit and all the subtle depth that you and I loved. (I read a lot of those reviews for a secondary school scheme of work I was making).

I was stunned - how can anyone not have noticed those aspects of the story? Then I re-read, and realised that, while I was lingering over the philosophical parts, the kids were dashing through them to get to the next fight scene. Often the two are simultaneous; it's one of the ways in which the book's so cleverly written.

Like the optical llusion of the old lady and the young woman; turn your head one way, you read it as a simple adventure story, turn it the other, you read it as deep work of literature. Both are valid viewpoints.

However, HDM is intended to be largely a kids' book (or, at least, a kids' book that adults might like, not an adults' book that kids might like - the adults are a side-issue), so I guess it's right that it was the less layered, less complex but more active kids' interpretation of the story that got filmed.

 

[Melinda]

Mr Melinda made me crease last night as we came out of the cinema. He said it was as if those Orange Cinema Advert guys had got to the director and script writer!

-"What?! They cut kids? "
"No, no! Unacceptable! How about a Willy Wonka style factory instead!"

-"HE KILLS THE KID?! You've got to be shitting me, that needs re-working."
"We need a Wizard of Oz ending!"


Scifisam- I completely accept the validity of what you say Its just Ive never felt like I 'owned' a book that was turned into a film before !
Ive recommended and bought so many copies for people!
It must be an amazing book to read with kids. How old are your children?

 

[scifisam]

Mr Melinda made me crease last night as we came out of the cinema. He said it was as if those Orange Cinema Advert guys had got to the director and script writer!

-"What?! They cut kids? "
"No, no! Unacceptable! How about a Willy Wonka style factory instead!"

The Willy Wonka comment is spot-on. But they still dd cut the kids, too. And it was made explicit that some of the kids had died.

-"HE KILLS THE KID?! You've got to be shitting me, that needs re-working."
"We need a Wizard of Oz ending!"

I think it really is just because Lyra's out of the story for so long in book 2. (I'm quite pleased with that analyss, and am sticking with it!)

Scifisam- I completely accept the validity of what you say Its just Ive never felt like I 'owned' a book that was turned into a film before !
Ive recommended and bought so many copies for people!
It must be an amazing book to read with kids. How old are your children?

I know how you feel, for other films - if I ever met the people who filmed Hitchhker's, I'd spit in their beer! I love HDM too, but for some reason am able to let go better than with Hitchker's (maybe because that was one of the first books I felt like I 'owned.')

My daughter's 9. She's quite an introspective child, so we were having lovely chats about what daemons are, and how a world would be different when everyone can see your soul. She thought it was terrible that everyone would be able to look at your dog-demon and know you were a servant, and you'd stay a servant, in soul as well in job, forever.

But she really is not an ordinary child; she understands stories very well, but hasn't got a clue about the real world. Lyra is now her hero.

Wasn't that a relief, btw - they didn't mess Lyra up!

 

[mrsfran]

I love, love, love the books. I thought the film was terrible. It lost all the subtlety and fun and replaced it with repeated shots of the bears roaring. I thought the CGI was good, in general the cast was good, but it just didn't work at all for me. I was very disappointed. Don't even get me started about that ending. Just terrible.

 

[Melinda]

Your daughter sounds so smart, inquisitive and lovely! Thats magical.
I always wanted to be an adventurer when I was little- to explore and see everything I could, I would have loved to have had Lyra as a hero.

I did like Lyra, very much, Dakota Blue was brave and fearless!
But again I thought she'd be smaller, dirtier, much more urchin like! Dakota seemed very nice, but nearly not haughty and aristocratic enough and not so naughty and infuriating to adults as she might have been.

Dakota did a fantastic job with Lyra's changing speech patterns and accents, they tended to change according to who ever is influencing her most at the time.

I did like her clothes as well!

 

[mrsfran]

Lyra's accent was all over the the place. One minute she was all "Golly gosh, Miss Coulter's so marvellously glamourous", the next it was "They should orta of done that, Roger". That may have happened subtly in the book but in the film it was a massive CLANG in my ear that didn't work at all.

 

[Gromit]

On the Lyra front I don't think really stressed the fact she lies her fucking face off allmost for a living.

A skill frowned upon by adults when kids do it. It turns out to be a skill she needs though and why she becomes named Silvertounge.

Kids love this aspect of it as its a kid getting away with murder. I read it as a grown up and thought that Lyra wasn't a very nice a person to be honest but she doesn't have to be, makes her human I guess.

 

[laptop]

On the Lyra front I don't think really stressed the fact she lies her fucking face off allmost for a living.

A skill frowned upon by adults when kids do it. It turns out to be a skill she needs though and why she becomes named Silvertounge.

OK, time for some of that analysis someone was dreading (on the other thread?)

This is a serious script. Of course it loses detail. But it brought out (for me) important aspects of the book that weren't so clear among all the detail.

One of these is the way that this is all about Lyra growing toward being a woman - and learning to negotiate male egos.

The scene with the bear king is wonderful

 

[Gromit]

OK, time for some of that analysis someone was dreading (on the other thread?)

This is a serious script. Of course it loses detail. But it brought out (for me) important aspects of the book that weren't so clear among all the detail.

One of these is the way that this is all about Lyra growing toward being a woman - and learning to negotiate male egos.

The scene with the bear king is wonderful

Sorry but I dont agree that the lying is about becoming a woman and working around male ego. Especially as the author is male. She lies to everyone including the only other real female char Miss Coulter. There just so happens to be more male chars in the story.

Tricking the bear wasn't about his male ego although that was a part of it. It was more a case of playing the arogance of authority. His position as king through animal selection of survival of the fittest and his desire to have what humans have.

 

[Melinda]

The deception of the bear also plays into a theme which runs throughout the books. You cant deny your true nature.

In choosing to become more human than bear, Iofor Rankinsson (Or what bastardisation of his name was used in the film) left himself open to being deceived, which is how Iorek defeated him. Where was the heart eatting btw?

 

[belboid]

The ending?! It was an abomination.

the 'prooper' ending will be in the next film tho. there was no way the original ending would be used as there is no film that would finish toe hoped for beginning of a trilogy with a real cliff hanger, thats for the end of the second 'episode'. The audience (those that havent read the books, the majority) need to have left the cinema with a sense of 'completeness', the original ending doesnt have that, this one did. Makes perfect filmic sense.

And the bits with Mrs Coulter hitting her daemon, and the dameon showing very different emotions to those Mrs C was trying to show was ace an all too rare example of film adding something to the original rather than stripping things out.

 

[Reno]

And the bits with Mrs Coulter hitting her daemon, and the dameon showing very different emotions to those Mrs C was trying to show was ace an all too rare example of film adding something to the original rather than stripping things out.

I too thought that actually worked. It implied something seriously disturbing about her psyche.

 

[Melinda]

the 'prooper' ending will be in the next film tho. there was no way the original ending would be used as there is no film that would finish toe hoped for beginning of a trilogy with a real cliff hanger, thats for the end of the second 'episode'. The audience (those that havent read the books, the majority) need to have left the cinema with a sense of 'completeness', the original ending doesnt have that, this one did. Makes perfect filmic sense.

And the bits with Mrs Coulter hitting her daemon, and the dameon showing very different emotions to those Mrs C was trying to show was ace an all too rare example of film adding something to the original rather than stripping things out.

Oooh intersting!

There's stuff I want to argue with, but I have disappear for 20 mins.
Im a'coming tho!

E2a- Ok- Lyra is safe in Lee Scoresby's sky ship, with Roger and Iorek, the Battle of Bolvangar is behind her on her way to see/rescue her father. She spells out what her options, but where is the cliff hanger?
Surely the original ending is more of a "OMG I thought he was a goodie?! What is going to happen next?" It is much more of a driver to have Lyra walking off into the sky, into another shining world with new adventures beckoning?

Thinking about Mrs Coulter and the daemon slapping, you may have a point. Her interaction with her daemon could/ should have been revealing about her true character, but its still a woman slapping her soul for being jealous of her daughter? The poisonous, mean, evil monkey could have been more frightening.

 

[Strumpet]

I too thought that actually worked. It implied something seriously disturbing about her psyche.

I agree. It was pretty scary imo.

 

[laptop]

the bits with Mrs Coulter hitting her daemon... was ace an all too rare example of film adding something to the original rather than stripping things out.

Yep.

Voice nearby in cinema when I saw it, when she spanks the monkey: "ooooh, schizophrenia!"


Me (thinks): "mmmh, capitalism and..."

 

[scifisam]

Oooh intersting!

There's stuff I want to argue with, but I have disappear for 20 mins.
Im a'coming tho!

E2a- Ok- Lyra is safe in Lee Scoresby's sky ship, with Roger and Iorek, the Battle of Bolvangar is behind her on her way to see/rescue her father. She spells out what her options, but where is the cliff hanger?
Surely the original ending is more of a "OMG I thought he was a goodie?! What is going to happen next?" It is much more of a driver to have Lyra walking off into the sky, into another shining world with new adventures beckoning?

That's it - the film doesn't end on such a clffhanger, which leaves the audience satisfied even if they haven't read the books. It makes it a more complete story.

To be fair, it's not really a trilogy, is it? It was just one long book chopped up into manageable chunks. So there was no real reason to end it where the first book did. (I said this earlier, but decided to say it again anyway. )

Thinking about Mrs Coulter and the daemon slapping, you may have a point. Her interaction with her daemon could/ should have been revealing about her true character, but its still a woman slapping her soul for being jealous of her daughter? The poisonous, mean, evil monkey could have been more frightening.

Was she slapping the monkey because of jealousy? I don't remember exactly what led up to her slapping it.

 

[laptop]

I don't remember exactly what led up to her slapping it.

I think it was just distracting her from her evil scheming...




That's another mark of a good film: one where there is enough content in the script that you want to watch it again to settle questions like this. I want to watch this one at least twice more: maybe the next time with the drugs forum (after a drug-free year or two) and the time after on DVD with pause button and notebook

 

[ruffneck23]

ok i can properly comment now that ive seen it , the books are one of my favourite reads , but the film ? Meh , I really didnt like it at all , Lee and Mrs Coulter were great and it did look spectacular but the rest was , i dont know how to explain, daemonless perhaps ........

Im at work so il explain my thoughts better at lunchtime

 

[Melinda]

That's it - the film doesn't end on such a clffhanger, which leaves the audience satisfied even if they haven't read the books. It makes it a more complete story.

It wasnt for them! It was for ME I is not caring one bit about people who havent rrad the books! I am kidding, but not by much!

Was she slapping the monkey because of jealousy? I don't remember exactly what led up to her slapping it.

Lyra had escaped; Mrs Coulter was on the air ship looking at a photo of Lyra. The evil monkey tipped the photo out of her hand and she slapped the taste out of it's mouth!

 

[sojourner]

It wasnt for them! It was for ME I is not caring one bit about people who havent rrad the books! I am kidding, but not by much!

I agree - and I'm not kidding at all!! This was a totally selfish thing for me - in fact, I don't think you should go and see the film UNLESS you've read the book!!

 

[Melinda]

I agree - and I'm not kidding at all!! This was a totally selfish thing for me - in fact, I don't think you should go and see the film UNLESS you've read the book!!

*High fives her Lyra lovin' sista*

 

[belboid]

I agree - and I'm not kidding at all!! This was a totally selfish thing for me - in fact, I don't think you should go and see the film UNLESS you've read the book!!

you are the producers' nightmare!

 

[belboid]

That's it - the film doesn't end on such a clffhanger, which leaves the audience satisfied even if they haven't read the books. It makes it a more complete story.

quite. i must have explained badly/drunkenly before - it is the lack of cliffhanger that is so important in the first episode of a serial like this. There'll be one mighty big hanger at the end of the second one tho, i bet ya

 

[belboid]

I think we are on about different daemon slapping bits, I'd have to see the film again to get exactly what melinda refers to, i was n about bits earlier when Mrs C & her daemon were quite clearly showing different emotional responses to lyra, the daemon giving away what mrs c's real emotions were

 

[belboid]

I agree - and I'm not kidding at all!! This was a totally selfish thing for me - in fact, I don't think you should go and see the film UNLESS you've read the book!!

dont you want yet more people to be turned n to how brilliant the books are? And fior them to then be blown away by how much more there is in the books?

 

[sojourner]

dont you want yet more people to be turned n to how brilliant the books are? And fior them to then be blown away by how much more there is in the books?

Yeh, but it's being done already by word of mouth - I've turned loads of people onto them. I'm not sure how effective a film is for turning viewers onto the book. But then I'm coming from a mostly reading perspective