Going to North Korea
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It is! Not quite Tokyo (where is?), but certainly an interesting place in its own right, with great nightlife and a burgeoning music scene. Plus it's cheap.
Have you seen the BBC documentary 'Out of The North'? It's about people who are trying to/have escaped from NK. Most end up having to take horrendous journeys through China to Thailand (to get to the South Korean embassy to claim asylum), where they could be arrested and sent back to NK at any time (to be executed, of course). There are also many NK women who are forced into prostitution after being guaranteed safe passage - but of course, they can't go back either, and they can't leave China. Desperate stuff. None of them seem to spend any time eulogising the subways and edfices raised to the glory of the dear leader. Funny that.
Daniel Gordon's A State of Mind, which is about the Mass Games, is also very interesting.
'Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, public executions, extra judicial and arbitrary detention, the absence of due process and the rule of law, imposition of the death penalty for political reasons, the existence of a large number of prison camps and the extensive use of forced labour;
Sanctions on citizens of the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea who have been repatriated from abroad, such as treating their departure as treason leading to punishments of internment, torture, inhuman or degrading treatment or the death penalty;
All-pervasive and severe restrictions on the freedoms of thought, conscience, religion, opinion and expression, peaceful assembly and association and on access of everyone to information, and limitations imposed on every person who wishes to move freely within the country and travel abroad;
Continued violation of the human rights and fundamental freedoms of women, in particular the trafficking of women for prostitution or forced marriage, ethnically motivated forced abortions, including by labour inducing injection or natural delivery, as well as infanticide of children of repatriated mothers, including in police detention centres and labour training camps.'
Source: The Commission on Human Rights
Amnesty International
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
Yes, I know. I want to see Vietnam, I want to see China, I want to see Cambodia. I want to see Burma. Do you condemn people for going to the Killing Fields Museum?
Just because I want to see Burma and Korea, doesn't mean I'm going to go there
I think everyone got the point.
Not really. It wasn't until the late 1970's that South Korea managed to demonstrate greater economic growth than North Korea. Until that time, the south very much lagged behind the norht, despite the millions of US dollars poured into the country to make it look like a bastion of capitalism. So it's only recently that one can point at North Korea and declare it a model of failed communism. It is fascinating to make the comparison between the two since the Korean War though. For instance, the north prides itself on being more traditional than the south; certainly the north preserves traditional Korean cultrue far better than the south (South Korea has recently instituted a policy of paying for traditional style weddings to encourage brides away from otherwise Western weddings). But on wonder at what cost. Is the price of relative freedom worth the preservation of traditional culture?
Well, there's a couple of good points concerning human rights in North Korea, especially jbob's, but they're not as cut and dried as they initially appear. And bear in mind that both Amnetsy International and the UN freely admit that there are huge problems building up an objective overview if the regime and that they mostly rely on anecdotes of defectors (cf defectors' account of the USSR during the Cold War).
"Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, public executions, extra judicial and arbitrary detention, the absence of due process and the rule of law, imposition of the death penalty for political reasons, the existence of a large number of prison camps and the extensive use of forced labour;"
Torture: What, like waterboarding?
Inuman or degrading punishment: Guantanamo.
Public executions: like the USA
Extra-judicial and arbitrary detention: like the US and UK
The absence of due process: ibid
Imposition of the death penalty for political reasons: arguably, the US
The existence of a large number of prison camps and the extensive use of forced labour: Okay, you've got me there. We haven't done that since the 50's. But a large number of allegedly friendly countries in the region (Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, China) practice the same things without censure.
And that's my point. I'm not an apologist for Noth Korea, but we're hardly comparing like with like. A lot of the criticisms levelled at the DPRK are things that the US and UK are currently guilty of and that neighbouring countries in the region are also guilty of, but without the approbation applied to North Korea. To expect every country to be at the same level of development as us is surely churlish. Not so long ago (mid 60's), homosexuality was punishable by imprisonment in the UK. The whole concept of human rights in the West is less than a hundred years old. Just becuase we've suddenly discovered such ideas does not mean the rest of the world should be force into subjugation until they reach our level. And even though we espouse such lofty values, we still manage to find exemptions whereby these are not applicable, cf Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, etc. So before we summarily condemn countries like North Korea, we might care to examine our own records (past and current) in these areas.
As I keep saying, I'm not a North Korean apologist. Sure, I like the country and I enjoyed my visit there. But do note that the approbium with which we treat the DPRK could be levelled at us. And at least North Korea isn't hypocritical. I'm sure there is mass suffering on a grand scale, but any report we have comes by anecdote. And as I'm fond of saying, the plural of anecdote is not data. We will never know for sure what occurs within North Korea before the walls come down. What we can know for sure is that freedom there is very limited at best and that some of the tales we hear are dubious at best. For instance, if the state manages such an autocratic control of its citizens, how come so many prostitutes in Southern China are from North Korea? You can't have a controlling state where people are prisoners and unable to escape if thousands of prostitutes in China have somehow made it out of the north. Less people made it out of East Berlin...
Daniel Gordon's A State of Mind is indeed fascinating. I was lucky enough to see the Arrirang festival and it's bloody astonishing. It really is. To see 100,000 performers moving in perfect synchronisation is amazing. I'm told they only do so under threat of imprisonment, but the people who say that to me are not North Korean, nor have they ever been there, nor can they show me any non-anecdotal evidence to prove their point. That's not to say they're wrong, but if we accept such standards of evidence, why are Bush, Cheney and Blair not languishing in the same prison as Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi?
In many ways, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I do ask you to question the evidence presented for, and the extent of, North Korean transgressions. I particularly find it interesting that no one has mentioned the nuclear weapons that North Korea undoubtedly posesses. I would think that a rogue state with an (at best) mental, dynastic leader having nuclear weapons would be a greater concern than whether prisoners are forced into hard labour or not (something that was, and arguably still is, practised in the West in recent memory). The citizens of North Korea may have something to fear from their own government, but we have many similar concerns with our own; and, if they are to be believed, our governemts tell us that we have to fear from the DPRK.
"Torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, public executions, extra judicial and arbitrary detention, the absence of due process and the rule of law, imposition of the death penalty for political reasons, the existence of a large number of prison camps and the extensive use of forced labour;"
Torture: What, like waterboarding?
Inuman or degrading punishment: Guantanamo.
Public executions: like the USA
Extra-judicial and arbitrary detention: like the US and UK
The absence of due process: ibid
Imposition of the death penalty for political reasons: arguably, the US
The existence of a large number of prison camps and the extensive use of forced labour: Okay, you've got me there. We haven't done that since the 50's. But a large number of allegedly friendly countries in the region (Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, China) practice the same things without censure.
And that's my point. I'm not an apologist for Noth Korea, but we're hardly comparing like with like. A lot of the criticisms levelled at the DPRK are things that the US and UK are currently guilty of and that neighbouring countries in the region are also guilty of, but without the approbation applied to North Korea. To expect every country to be at the same level of development as us is surely churlish. Not so long ago (mid 60's), homosexuality was punishable by imprisonment in the UK. The whole concept of human rights in the West is less than a hundred years old. Just becuase we've suddenly discovered such ideas does not mean the rest of the world should be force into subjugation until they reach our level. And even though we espouse such lofty values, we still manage to find exemptions whereby these are not applicable, cf Guantanamo, extraordinary rendition, etc. So before we summarily condemn countries like North Korea, we might care to examine our own records (past and current) in these areas.
As I keep saying, I'm not a North Korean apologist. Sure, I like the country and I enjoyed my visit there. But do note that the approbium with which we treat the DPRK could be levelled at us. And at least North Korea isn't hypocritical. I'm sure there is mass suffering on a grand scale, but any report we have comes by anecdote. And as I'm fond of saying, the plural of anecdote is not data. We will never know for sure what occurs within North Korea before the walls come down. What we can know for sure is that freedom there is very limited at best and that some of the tales we hear are dubious at best. For instance, if the state manages such an autocratic control of its citizens, how come so many prostitutes in Southern China are from North Korea? You can't have a controlling state where people are prisoners and unable to escape if thousands of prostitutes in China have somehow made it out of the north. Less people made it out of East Berlin...
Daniel Gordon's A State of Mind is indeed fascinating. I was lucky enough to see the Arrirang festival and it's bloody astonishing. It really is. To see 100,000 performers moving in perfect synchronisation is amazing. I'm told they only do so under threat of imprisonment, but the people who say that to me are not North Korean, nor have they ever been there, nor can they show me any non-anecdotal evidence to prove their point. That's not to say they're wrong, but if we accept such standards of evidence, why are Bush, Cheney and Blair not languishing in the same prison as Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi?
In many ways, I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I do ask you to question the evidence presented for, and the extent of, North Korean transgressions. I particularly find it interesting that no one has mentioned the nuclear weapons that North Korea undoubtedly posesses. I would think that a rogue state with an (at best) mental, dynastic leader having nuclear weapons would be a greater concern than whether prisoners are forced into hard labour or not (something that was, and arguably still is, practised in the West in recent memory). The citizens of North Korea may have something to fear from their own government, but we have many similar concerns with our own; and, if they are to be believed, our governemts tell us that we have to fear from the DPRK.
Yes, I know. I want to see Vietnam, I want to see China, I want to see Cambodia. I want to see Burma. Do you condemn people for going to the Killing Fields Museum?
Just because I want to see Burma and Korea, doesn't mean I'm going to go there
I don't believe you know, otherwise you wouldn't be fetishising subways and billion dollar hotels, and you might know that genoicde isn't currently being carried out in all the countries you list apart from Burma. Of course I don't condemn people for going to The Killing Fields, I've been there myself; it's like going to Auschwitz, it's there for sound historical and documentary reasons. But while in Cambodia, I could spend my money freely, eating at local restaurants and bars, and directly spending within a local economy, which is impossible in North Korea or Burma, where all foreign monies go to the thugs in charge (with the exception of local black economies for South Korean and Chinese goods, but no tourist will ever engage with this).
Your second paragraph is just puerile, and there's two Koreas.
Anyway, as the ascerbic and always so helpful jaed noted, my point is simple: it's possible to decide where you spend your tourist dollar, and I think it's ethically unsound to give it to the North Korean dictatorship.
That's simple. Chinese people smugglers take them out under false pretenses, North Korean guards are easily bribed due their extreme poverty, and when in China they're put to work, always with the threat of being sent back, where they'll be publicly executed.
Worth remembering that as much prostitution exists in country: http://www.dailynk.com/english/read.php?cataId=nk00100&num=2485
Latest news.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8073129.stm
Now that will be fucking mess if it kicks off.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8073129.stm
Now that will be fucking mess if it kicks off.
Minnie_the_Minx
someinenhhanding menbag and me ah bollox
If I had put the pictures in a "tube stations of the world" thread, would you have objected?
Are you ok with people going to visit the Great Wall of China?
Quite, which is why I wouldn't go to North Korea or Burma, but if their regimes were different in the future, then I would like to go, even if it's just for the scenery - which correct me if I'm wrong, weren't built by prisoners/slave labour etc.
Oh, and where am I fetishing billion dollar hotels?
Is fetishing a word?
not-bono-ever
meh
Just booked my flights to China for the trip of a lifetime with some friends from work
Going on a short tour in DPRK and then spending a few days in Beijing... only been there once before but I loved it
I am bouncing with excitement! And also a bit shocked that I actually booked it!
Beiijing is shit ( I await abuse for this )
The DPRK is fascinating and uttlery insane. As PY is a bastion of loyalty- anyone who lives there must be seriously loyal / have perfect family history- you will only be seeing a slice of the country. THe coach trips you will take to various places are in teresting in that you can get a feel for how the rest of the people live - and its fuckin grim
I was there in November and it was bitterly cold and most people dont have heatring or whatever - pretty grim
I know the thread has provoked a debate on misery tourism and thats something to take on board, but you will be in a better positon to comment than most when you return. No-one I know who has been there has come back impressed with this particular brand of nepo-fascism
Going on a short tour in DPRK and then spending a few days in Beijing... only been there once before but I loved it
I am bouncing with excitement! And also a bit shocked that I actually booked it!
http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/travelling...by-country/asia-oceania/korea-dpr-north-korea
Or maybe not.
How did you find it shit?
Overcrowded, grey, polluted, crap layout and city planning I'd agree with, but shit? Nah. The Beijing I left was a hell of a lot different from the Beijing I came to.
No matter what has been said above it is still one of my top 5 places to visit 
Very jealous!!
I have been to numerous "odd places" around the world but North Korea is still one of those that my other half isn't so keen on
Apparently from someone who went in April this year they are now putting windows in it! So who knows what they are planning
Very jealous!!I have been to numerous "odd places" around the world but North Korea is still one of those that my other half isn't so keen on
One thing I'd love to see is this weird hotel which was never finished
It was a sort of vanity project of the President, and then they ran out of money or something. It's so weird that it's almost beautiful despite its ugliness.
Apparently from someone who went in April this year they are now putting windows in it! So who knows what they are planning
skyscraper101
0891 50 50 50
^^That building looks like a graph of global economic meltdown.
Quite apt really.
Quite apt really.
They wouldn't seriously be so stupid as to attack the USA, would they? 
They wouldn't seriously be so stupid as to attack the USA, would they?
From an outsider's point of view, you would see it as blindingly stupid.
From the POV of some daft bastard fed a diet of bullshit about total superiority of their country, who knows?
