god create evil?
- Thread starter jedi
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andrewwyld
filled with inertia
This is usually argued from the position that a deterministic universe precludes free will. I think a random universe equally precludes free will (or doesn't). Which is more free -- a calculator, or dice? I don't actually think either assumption precludes free will unless we choose definitions of free will which embody logical contradictions, and are therefore impossible under any circumstances. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people unwittingly do.mattkidd12 said:
andrewwyld
filled with inertia
I knew you were going to say that.mattkidd12 said:
(Just kidding.)
andrewwyld
filled with inertia
Well, usually what happens in the stories is either that the extra information enables someone to make a better choice (most modern time-travel stories), or that someone tries to avoid their predicted fate and brings it upon themselves in a terrible twist of irony (delphic oracle stories). One is inconsistent with the coexistence of free will and determinism, and one is not. Choose your pitch, I guess. Personally I think God is independent of spacetime, so the fact that he knows what I am going to do is only because he is already there in the future. Of course, so am I. The future me is, anyway. Assuming I am not dead. He knows what I did, too (except the bits he has forgotten).angry bob said:
mattkidd12 said:
I see what you mean. Don't believe in god myself by the way.
Not sure that inability to change the future and our choices determining the future are incompatible unless we can see the future ourselves.
Dunno though really? Didn't this argument split the church at one point? < thinks back to reading aboput religion in encyclopedia>
Something to do with Calvinism??
andrewwyld said:
Presumably god would have to exist outside of 4-D space-time if he created it. Would he also have to live outside of 7-D reality? Probably I guess.
My problem with the existence of god is 'why all the secrecy?'
Why not just come right out and tell us? Why must we decode his existence from some ancient and very difficult to read book in the midst of a bunch of other ancient and very difficult to read books??
But I guess that's beside the point.
andrewwyld
filled with inertia
It used to be more open but he kept getting trolls all the time.angry bob said:
Seriously, good question. Don't know. Have to go so will post again.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
phildwyer said:
why the metaphysical bullshit?
You mean presumably, that any concept , insofar as must emerge through linguistic representation, needs to define itself - as sign - in relation to what it does not signify - ergo the concept of "good" requires "evil" as its supplement.
No need for "Experience of deity" and the like though.
Heh: Try this: "God is Satan, Satan is God".
After all, which deity kills the most people each day, or sees killing performed in its name.
In any case, the notion that God is a moral perfect entity is a little flawed, when you consider that in its origin, the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God is based on the entity called "Yahweh". Yahweh was a vengeful, amoral, desert spirit.
Have fun.
MuHaHaHa
After all, which deity kills the most people each day, or sees killing performed in its name.
In any case, the notion that God is a moral perfect entity is a little flawed, when you consider that in its origin, the Christian/Muslim/Jewish God is based on the entity called "Yahweh". Yahweh was a vengeful, amoral, desert spirit.
Have fun.
MuHaHaHa
rocketman said:
Yahweh = YHWH = Jehovah
The Christian/Muslim/Jewish god is not simply based on Yahweh ... it is Yahweh.
Don't know where you get that he "was a vengeful, amoral, desert spirit".
Do you believe in such things?
Killings performed in the name of something/someone do not neccessarily reflect its nature. See, for example, operation Iraqi freedom ...
nice evil laugh BTW
There is a difficult issue for God to answer. If He was so perfect then why create anything at all? And given that He created everything then the flaws that exist can only originate from flaws in God Himself.
I point this out, not in order to disprove the former existance of God but to demonstrate that God is, or rather was, not infallable. I recall reading the fabulous Sodom and Gamorrah story in the 'Good Book' (actually it really is quite good in places but fairly mediocre in others, also it hasn't aged well.) But the S&G story still stands up rigid in it's own right.
The story actually concerns Sodom but is often referred to as Sodomangomorrah. The two cities were nearby and both appear to have been smited completely.
When God made has plans known to Abraham; that HE wanted to smite the population of Sodom, Abraham was appalled. So appalled was he that he said unto God 'although you are all seeing and all knowing and all wise and never ever wrong, might I suggest that, at least in these chapters, you are not entirely infallable and may have overlooked one or more righteous persons in the city who really should not be smited?'
After which Abraham breathed deeply partly out of fear that his God would smite him for talking back, but mostly because his spoken sentence had been really rather long, as is this one, in fact it is getting longer all the time. Phew. God was a little miffed and said unto Abhraham 'alright then Mr Know It All, Mr I Know Better Than God Almighty, Mr If My boots Get Any Bigger I Could Go Elephant Stomping, Mr er Mr Stoopid,' for God had no need to draw breath, 'alright then Smartypants Angel-features', continued God authoritavely, 'you go find me ten rightious persons in Sodom and I will save the whole city from being smited by my wrath.'
God sent two angels to Sodom, and they were appalled by the goings on, the prostitution, the wine drinking, the strippers (I understand they were appalled by the lap dancers at least three times) before they encountered Lot. Lot was a good man with a white beard and white flowing robes. So Lot stood out somewhat because it was customery in Sodom to wear black leather and moustaches that curl up wickedly at the ends. Lot took the two angels to his house and offered them fish finger sarnies and all good wholesome things and space to sleep on the table.
Later that night, the men of the city surrounded his house and ordered that he delivered to them naked and postrate the two men he had taken in. Lot said, 'no you may not rape my guests, what kind of a host would I be if I stood by and let my guests be raped by a mob with stupid moustaches that curl up wickedly at the ends?' When they tried to force their way in, Lot ever rightious and good and proper and always wearing white, said unto the lecherous mob; 'take thee my two daughters, for they are fair virgins and you may rape them as much as you like taking turns, taking them from all directions and performing any number of unspeakable things upon their lithe white bodies, forcing me to watch.'
But the mob said 'er, well, oh naah, we want the winged men, we've never raped a man with wings before.' So the angels waved their sticks and struck them with blindness. Then the Angels spoke to Lot of God's plan to smite the city with fire, and with brimstone, and told him to leave with his wife and two daughters. 'But if you so much as look behind God will smite you too. He can be a bit of a bastard like that, you see' added the Angel quietly. So Lot took his wife and two daughters and scarpered but Lot's wife was disobedient and looked back, so God turned her into a pillar of salt.
Later Lot set up home with his two daughters but without a wife he had no means to sow his seed and carry on his legacy, for his daughters, though still virgins and therefore worth a bit, didn't count for lack of penis. Then one night the older daughter drugged Lot so that he didn't know what he was doing and Lot fathered a child by his oldest daughter. Obviously he was outraged and appalled by what had happened but somehow managed to fall for the same trick once more and fathered a child by his youngest daughter too (Or so he told the inquiry, but if you'll believe THAT....
)
Anyway the moral of all this is crystal clear so no further comment needed from me.
I point this out, not in order to disprove the former existance of God but to demonstrate that God is, or rather was, not infallable. I recall reading the fabulous Sodom and Gamorrah story in the 'Good Book' (actually it really is quite good in places but fairly mediocre in others, also it hasn't aged well.) But the S&G story still stands up rigid in it's own right.
The story actually concerns Sodom but is often referred to as Sodomangomorrah. The two cities were nearby and both appear to have been smited completely.
When God made has plans known to Abraham; that HE wanted to smite the population of Sodom, Abraham was appalled. So appalled was he that he said unto God 'although you are all seeing and all knowing and all wise and never ever wrong, might I suggest that, at least in these chapters, you are not entirely infallable and may have overlooked one or more righteous persons in the city who really should not be smited?'
After which Abraham breathed deeply partly out of fear that his God would smite him for talking back, but mostly because his spoken sentence had been really rather long, as is this one, in fact it is getting longer all the time. Phew. God was a little miffed and said unto Abhraham 'alright then Mr Know It All, Mr I Know Better Than God Almighty, Mr If My boots Get Any Bigger I Could Go Elephant Stomping, Mr er Mr Stoopid,' for God had no need to draw breath, 'alright then Smartypants Angel-features', continued God authoritavely, 'you go find me ten rightious persons in Sodom and I will save the whole city from being smited by my wrath.'
God sent two angels to Sodom, and they were appalled by the goings on, the prostitution, the wine drinking, the strippers (I understand they were appalled by the lap dancers at least three times) before they encountered Lot. Lot was a good man with a white beard and white flowing robes. So Lot stood out somewhat because it was customery in Sodom to wear black leather and moustaches that curl up wickedly at the ends. Lot took the two angels to his house and offered them fish finger sarnies and all good wholesome things and space to sleep on the table.
Later that night, the men of the city surrounded his house and ordered that he delivered to them naked and postrate the two men he had taken in. Lot said, 'no you may not rape my guests, what kind of a host would I be if I stood by and let my guests be raped by a mob with stupid moustaches that curl up wickedly at the ends?' When they tried to force their way in, Lot ever rightious and good and proper and always wearing white, said unto the lecherous mob; 'take thee my two daughters, for they are fair virgins and you may rape them as much as you like taking turns, taking them from all directions and performing any number of unspeakable things upon their lithe white bodies, forcing me to watch.'
But the mob said 'er, well, oh naah, we want the winged men, we've never raped a man with wings before.' So the angels waved their sticks and struck them with blindness. Then the Angels spoke to Lot of God's plan to smite the city with fire, and with brimstone, and told him to leave with his wife and two daughters. 'But if you so much as look behind God will smite you too. He can be a bit of a bastard like that, you see' added the Angel quietly. So Lot took his wife and two daughters and scarpered but Lot's wife was disobedient and looked back, so God turned her into a pillar of salt.
Later Lot set up home with his two daughters but without a wife he had no means to sow his seed and carry on his legacy, for his daughters, though still virgins and therefore worth a bit, didn't count for lack of penis. Then one night the older daughter drugged Lot so that he didn't know what he was doing and Lot fathered a child by his oldest daughter. Obviously he was outraged and appalled by what had happened but somehow managed to fall for the same trick once more and fathered a child by his youngest daughter too (Or so he told the inquiry, but if you'll believe THAT....
) Anyway the moral of all this is crystal clear so no further comment needed from me.
parallelepipete
Aelod cysylltiol y Taliban Cymraeg
Bible stories never seemed this fun when I was small. Almost makes me miss going to church!*Groucho said:
* Not really.
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