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Globalisation vs Sustainability

I'm quite puzzled as to why you keep suggesting that this has to be coercive Giles, when there is no obvious trace of coercion in anything Douthwaite has said about it.

To me this seems like a simple matter of people deciding what they're going to do with their own money.
 
Giles said:
Of course you cannot do anything at all, in any society, but I suspect that for this to work on any significant scale, there would have to be laws restricting a citizen's ability to buy or sell things that he can at present.

But there's no way you can claim that the right to 'buy or sell the things that he can at present' is some sort of fundamental human right. Otherwise it would be illegal to put prices up, ever.

What people can buy or sell is already massively restricted, mostly by how much money they have. You can argue against changes on the grounds that it would reduce people's buying ability, or that you're a fundamentalist free marketer, but it really doesn't work to talk about it as a right.
 
Ah, OK. I think I see where you might be getting that from Giles. You read this bit in his article?

Similarly, if a territory had its own banking system, it could ensure that interest rates were related to the rate of profit possible on projects within the territory rather than to the highest rate of return that could be found anywhere in the world. This would mean that there would be very much less pressure for the territory's resources to be used unsustainably in order to generate the financial returns required for investment funds to be committed and projects go ahead.

A sustainable region also needs to be able to prevent net capital flows across its borders either by enacting laws against them or by creating a social climate which makes investing elsewhere a matter for shame. Why? Consider what happens when a sustainable economy becomes mature, by which I mean that although its buildings are repaired and its capital equipment is replaced as it wears out, no new buildings are erected and no extra equipment is installed because the benefits from doing so are so small it's not considered worth while. In other words, all the sustainable projects which give a reasonable rate of return have been carried through and the territory's economy has ceased to grow significantly except when, from time to time, new technologies come along which make additional production possible without upsetting the area's sustainability by using more resources and releasing more waste, or by damaging its social fabric.

The low rate of return in a mature sustainable economy means that the owners of capital there will always be tempted to remove their funds to unsustainable or immature sustainable economies to get a higher rates of return. If these capital movements take place, the mature economy runs down because funds that would have been used to repair buildings or replace worn-out equipment get invested elsewhere. The resulting shortage of equipment causes unemployment to appear, increasing competition for jobs and pushing down wage levels. Moreover, less goods and services are produced, pushing prices up. Both these changes enable businesses to make additional profits and thus pay higher interest rates and when these rates match those available elsewhere, the capital outflow will cease.
source

I agree that he's talking about legislation to restrict the movement of capital across the boundaries of a sustainable territory. So what you say is fair enough in relation to that article, but presumably such legislation would not happen, at least in his thinking, without the consent of the people in that territory.

I still don't think coercion is implied by the more basic proposals described in 'Short Circuit' and which I was talking about earlier though.
 
I think the difference comes from the purposes of the two pieces. In 'Short Circuit' the agenda is 'what can we do right now in our own community?'

In the Globalisation vs Sustainability thing I quoted in my previous post, he's doing something different. He's analysing various ways in which the global economy provides perverse incentives driving unsustainability and inequality, and proposing ways of addressing them.
 
If you can persuade enough people in a given area to join an alternative, locally based currency and banking scheme, voluntarily, then fine.

But I am not convinced that people will want to, at least, not in large enough numbers to make it work.

People have got used to being able to buy cheap products, of all sorts, from all over the world. Why would they choose to give that up? Because things *would* end up costing a lot more, due to the inefficiencies re-introduced by having lots of small, local places making the same things - and making those things in relatively high-wage areas of the world, than at present.

I just don't think that people in the First World would accept the effective cut in their standard of living that this would imply. In some currently poor countries, it might help by preventing their economies from being badly affected by cheap imports from richer nations.

Giles..
 
Giles, sure. This is mostly of benefit to the people further down the wealth 'food chain' but the things that help them, also seem to help sustainability.

The argument there being, the same economic forces that oblige people in underdeveloped countries to accept shittier wages and working conditions to compete globally, are also the economic forces which provide incentives for trashing their environment, selling off their natural resources for the benefit of a very few and doing globally counterproductive stuff like chopping down rain forests.

So while addressing the first is a matter of conscience, and unlikely to outweigh lifestyle priorities for most people in the developed world, the sustainability stuff is increasingly a matter of survival, and hence likely to become a more powerful argument over time.

The third argument Douthwaite makes, the one for food, energy and physical security is interesting though. What do you make of that one?

A quick prescis. Global markets happen to be treating the UK reasonably gently right now, but they might not. Look at what happened in places like Argentina that got fucked by the IMF. These sort of measures provide security in regard to basics like food, water and electricity that is quite arguably far more reliable than depending on the whims of global markets.
 
Giles said:
If you can persuade enough people in a given area to join an alternative, locally based currency and banking scheme, voluntarily, then fine.

But I am not convinced that people will want to, at least, not in large enough numbers to make it work.

People have got used to being able to buy cheap products, of all sorts, from all over the world. Why would they choose to give that up? Because things *would* end up costing a lot more, due to the inefficiencies re-introduced by having lots of small, local places making the same things - and making those things in relatively high-wage areas of the world, than at present.

I just don't think that people in the First World would accept the effective cut in their standard of living that this would imply. In some currently poor countries, it might help by preventing their economies from being badly affected by cheap imports from richer nations.

Giles..

I concur with this post. Isn't what the author proposes merely protectionism in another language? I haven't read the article but have an idea of what it entails from the snippets posted. Giles has already pointed out that the economics of it doesn't work, unless you persuade people that it is in their interest to buy from within the community. The word community is so ambiguous, are there set parameters to population, fiscal management, range of commodities that can and can't be brought from outside the local economy.
Would it become a post code lottery on products. I think the underlying idea is flawed, though I'm willing to be proved wrong.
 
I think the point about people choosing to do it is that it's easy to say 'it'll never work, people will be worse off' when you live in one of the places that generally benefits from the current system. Sure, people in Britain would probably be worse off, and would be unlikely to go for it. The huge number of people in Latin America who've been getting progressively poorer might well go for something along those lines though. There's already a lot of support for radical leaders there.
 
I think there's a great deal to be said for this sort of approach if you are in the developing world, or even one of the more rural and/or economically depressed bits of the developed world.

Yes of course it's protectionism. Hence use of the word 'security' in this context. The whole scheme is specifically about protecting citizens, environments and local economies from the ravages of global markets.

I'm off away for a day or two now, so I'll anticipate a bit here.

If you think the only possible criteria for judging something like this is whether it's 'economic' then clearly this looks like a bad idea. The whole scheme comes from the starting point that the highest rate of return on investment is not the sole moral good despite our economic systems being set up as though it were.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
There's an interesting article by Richard Douthwaite that makes the following argument. Why localisation is essential for sustainability

At present, we are ruled by firm believers in the 'Washington Consensus' on economics and foreign policy and the only credibly electable alternatives are also going to be firm believers in it (otherwise they couldn't get the financial and media support required to win) That means we have absolutely no choice about privatisations, wars against those countries that don't accept this consensus, putting the needs of business above those of citizens and other evil, shitty things that we don't want, but which are required of us by this "Washington Consensus".

What about forming your own parties and running your own candidates?
 
And how local is local?

How many jurisdictions in the world will be able to manufacture their own autos, pharmaceuticals, computer chips, etc? In other words, the same point that Giles made...
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
What about forming your own parties and running your own candidates?

Well, in Britain at least, some version of 'localisation' is approaching political orthodoxy, being the official policy of the Green Party in one version, one of the favourite buzzwords of the renewing Conservative Party in another version, and something that finds favour with elements of the Labour left (Alan Simpson, leader of the left wing 'Campaign' group of Labour MPs wrote an approving foreword to a book on the issue.) Only some of the 'third-way' labourites and free market fundamentalists on the fringes of the Tories join the corporatist Liberal Democrats in approval of fully fledged economic globalisation. And even some of the Blairites and 'community politics' Liberal Democrats make rhetorical nods in the direction of localisation.......
Whether this is mere populist rhetorical window dressing for most of the political establishment is another matter.;)
Personally speaking, without a good degree of democratic control, internationalism and socialist politics, half cocked localisation might simply cement some existing inequalities and be a cover for old fashioned nationalist protectionism. But of course the S word is off limits now for the so-called political mainstream.....
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
And how local is local?

How many jurisdictions in the world will be able to manufacture their own autos, pharmaceuticals, computer chips, etc? In other words, the same point that Giles made...

You haven't looked at the article have you?
 
It's easier to just contract an ideology gland and spunk out some gibberish, I guess.

A good anaology for the 'larger picture' from that article would be the two relatively impoverished villages close to each other, which nevertheless have to effectively buy currency from the metropolis that does the issuing in order to trade with each other. Why would you need to coerce them into acting in concert solely with each other, when it's clearly in both of their material interests? Not that economic interests are the only valid ones, as the Washington Consensus routinely fails to acknowledge.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
You haven't looked at the article have you?

We dismiss JC2 too lightly, as loathsome and detestable a person as I find him, I'm willing to admit (on occasion) when he's right.
 
muser said:
We dismiss JC2 too lightly, as loathsome and detestable a person as I find him, I'm willing to admit (on occasion) when he's right.

The article does address his point though. So I'd guess he hasn't looked at it.

Probably you haven't either.
 
Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
The article does address his point though. So I'd guess he hasn't looked at it.

Probably you haven't either.

The point he makes, is the same one giles and myself have made. I haven't read the article, though I've already declared that.
 
muser said:
The point he makes, is the same one giles and myself have made. I haven't read the article, though I've already declared that.


No shit.:rolleyes:

The point is the article DOES address that point. Why bring up a point you think the article misses when you haven't even looked at it.
 
I've now read the article.

This guy is advocating a return to the gold standard.


Yes, he answers the issue of things like auto production on a local scale by saying that there will be 'diversity' with the different local economies. What that translates into, is that some local economies won't be able to produce autos, or computers, etc. so they'll diverge from the rich economies, like the one where Douthwaite lives, in that these things will be in short supply in the poorer local economies.

Who is this crackpot?
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
I've now read the article.

This guy is advocating a return to the gold standard.<snip>
I must admit I don't recall him saying that, although I'm no expert on his views.

Could you point me to the passage in question please?
 
What I recall him saying was more along the lines of
At least four types of money are needed. One is an international currency, playing the role taken by gold before the collapse of the gold exchange standard. The second is a national or regional (sub-national) currency that would relate to the international currency in some way. Thirdly, we would need a plethora of currencies which, like LETS, the Wir and the commodity-based currencies, could be created at will by their users to mobilize resources left untapped by national or regional systems. Many of these user currencies would confine their activities to particular geographical areas, but some would link non-spatially-based communities of interest. And fourth, as our current money's store of value function can so easily conflict with its use as a means of exchange, special currencies are needed for people wishing to see their savings hold their value while still keeping them in a fairly liquid form."
Ecology of Money

He makes specific proposals for the international currency mentioned above though.

He proposes, as far as I recall, that it is backed by energy, not by gold.
 
Ah, here you go.
So my proposal for this is that an international agency issues the EBCU. And on what basis should it issue it? Well again, why not on the basis of a country’s population? That every country should get an allowance for every citizen that it has, just as in a game of monopoly all the players start with an equal allocation of money there at the beginning. So this new money would be given to the countries of the world for them to start trading, and of course, the poor countries would be able to use their allocation to get out of the debt crisis that many of them are in, in fact if you’re creating money on the basis of debt then you’ve got to expect some of that debt to end up in the weaker parts of the world. It’s the weak who usually end up in debt, and so there will be less debt in the new system anyway, because first of all we’re giving people essentially a 'get out of debt free' card, by issuing the new money, and then of course these poor countries are going to get an annual allocation of emission rights, and they’re going to be able to sell a proportion of these. It's almost as if they’re starting growing a new crop, which they’re going to be able to sell every year. So we get a better balance between rich and poor in the world anyway.

Now the value of the new currency would be fixed in terms of the emissions rights, so the international agency that would issue the currency would also issue the emission rights on a declining basis each year. Each year there would be 5% fewer emission rights allocated than the year, before so that you can be sure you’re going to hit the target, and the issuing agency would say ‘well if ever the price of the emission rights rises above a certain level we will supply supply more of them, but we’ll take the EBCU you’ve used to pay for them, and we will destroy those EBCU, in other words we’re going to reduce the amount of global money in circulation.’

Now this means that less trading is going to be possible at a world level, so that’s immediately going to cut back energy demand. It doesn’t mean that any particular country suffers because of this, [becasue] if any country can in fact cut their energy consumption, then they can build their economy, they can get a higher level of income. So the onus is on individual countries and individual regions to move as rapidly as possible away from fossil fuels, because that either means they’re going to have more permits to sell or emission rights to sell, or less emission right to buy, so by doing this the whole direction of the world economy begins to change. Instead of always putting pressure on the environment, because of the need to expand, now the pressure is, well to take pressure off the environment, to cut back fossil fuel consumption, because the faster you do that the better living standards you can achieve.

So that is the proposal. It is being researched at the moment. We’re building an economic model to show how it would work. We don’t expect the United States (or indeed Canada, because of the long border) would ever wish to join such a system, and certainly the United States would never come in, because it would mean that it had to make very rapid reductions in its use of fossil fuels, and it would lose the power of the dollar. So we’re assuming in our model that all the EU countries including the ten that are about to join would participate in this system, along with their former colonial territories. So you’ve got some over consumers of fossil energy and you’ve got a lot of 'under-consumers', places like Indonesia, India, Africa and these countries generally have strong links of friendship still, and so the fact that real resources were going from say Britain to India, because the British were having to buy emission rights to continue to use as much energy rights as they do, this would in fact be good, because the EBCUs that go to India would in fact come back to Europe as demand for European goods, and of course it would be good for the Indians, because they would be able to lift their people out of poverty.
transcript of interview, section 5
 
Johnny Canuck2 said:
And how local is local?

How many jurisdictions in the world will be able to manufacture their own autos, pharmaceuticals, computer chips, etc? In other words, the same point that Giles made...
That interview transcript I found is quite good at correcting many of the misconceptions of Douthwaite's views that have popped up so far on this thread.
Q11. Should Everything be Produced Locally?

I can’t think that anybody thinks that it is desirable or possible to produce absolutely everything that a modern community needs within its home limits.

What I urge in “Short Circuits” & in my other writings, is that each community should try and produce the essentials of life within its own area so that it doesn’t get caught. For example, if you are dependent on the outside world for your energy supplies, your systems just don’t work without it, your factories can’t work, your farmers can’t plant fields and so on, then you really are caught.

You’re like a drug addict because, as you know, drugs affect people’s metabolism and your energy, of course, determines your economic metabolism.

You’ve got to sell those things that you can produce in your community at whatever terms the outside world will offer in order to buy energy from the outside world at whatever price the outside world chooses to ask. So you can’t be self reliant on that basis. You can get very badly caught, you can be exploited.

So the first target that every community should aim for is self-reliance in energy. The next one is food. Become self-reliant in food, then after that it doesn’t really matter too much. Take it a little bit further to say, housing materials, but what that means is supposing you have a bad year - supposing that the price for whatever commodities the community is selling to the outside world falls because of some external crisis, it means that the life of the community has to go on. That you’re not exchanging your apples for oranges this year - now that’s a pity, but there we are. You’re not exchanging the industrial boot that you're making for money which enables you to buy dancing shoes or something like this. It’s a pity, but it’s not vital.

So each community should try and put a protective barrier around itself and produce within its own boundaries the essentials of life. And of course, it’s up to each community to decide what how far it should go.
source
 
Countries kind of have made that choice as large communities already, as a result of the influence of special interests as well as democratic pressure. We chose in Europe for example in the aftermath of the second world war to become as close to self-sufficient in food as possible. This would be a much more radical proposal which would require massive popular support, even if it is proved it could work. That's not to say it's not interesting in principal, but it's basically an artificial reversal of the past several centuries' worth of economic change so it won't be very straightforward.
 
Yep. Difficult but I think it's interesting too. I don't know enough about economics to really judge properly though, but it sounds semi-plausible.

What he seems to be envisaging (Q8 onwards in that transcript) is that the EU and various former colonies in places like South Asia and Africa might find it economically advantageous to mutually agree to go this route in the onset of a major economic depression forced by peak oil.
 
Indeed. Major crises call for major policy changes, and the Second World War utterly transformed the nature of politics in Europe for half a century; protectionism, government intervention etc. Only now are we going back towards the direction that free-market interests wanted in the eary 19th century. Interested though to see how this ties in at the level of smaller communities, as the mentioned proposal would be agreed at the level of nation states (and even super-national states like the EU).
 
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