Giving back Gaza: was it a big mistake?

[tangentlama]

Seems like ever since the Israelis handed over Gaza, Hamas and Islamic Jihad have been using the area as a staging ground for mortar and rocket attacks into Israel, just like the hawks said would happen.

Was it a mistake to give back Gaza, and has it slowed down any chance of peace?


http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/....html?id=e1fb4ac4-e5d8-4489-b11a-a6959837e544

No, and No.

 

[mears]

you assume an equaltiy which isn't there .. ironicall by attempting to even talk to you so do i...

So you believe Palestinians are at no fault in this current conflict?

Or is Israel mostly at fault?

Just say it

 

[nino_savatte]

So you believe Palestinians are at no fault in this current conflict?

Or is Israel mostly at fault?

Just say it

1947

 

[TAE]

UN Partition Recommendation of 1947?

 

[nino_savatte]

UN Partition Recommendation of 1947?

That's the one. Bit of a British idea by all accounts.

 

[TAE]

Whatever the rights and wrongs about that, plenty of people have been born there since then, and kicking them all out would be rather nasty.

 

[hundredthmonkey]

So you believe Palestinians are at no fault in this current conflict?

Or is Israel mostly at fault?

Just say it

Yes I do think those that have gone on to create Israel are mostly at fault. What exactly have the Palestinians done wrong apart from inhabit this piece of land that the Israelis have claimed as their own? Now wait for the biblical reasons for why ... etc. etc. etc.

 

[TeeJay]

I have no idea.

You've got that right

The PA were the ones who said they could do it during negotiations.

It was unilateral.

 

[mears]

Yes I do think those that have gone on to create Israel are mostly at fault. What exactly have the Palestinians done wrong apart from inhabit this piece of land that the Israelis have claimed as their own? Now wait for the biblical reasons for why ... etc. etc. etc.

The Palestinian leadership has been corrupt and incompetent. A culture of suicide bombing has also taken hold amongst many Palestinians. I think these are two examples of poor behavior by the Palestinians.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

So you believe Palestinians are at no fault in this current conflict?

Or is Israel mostly at fault?

Just say it

no i dont' think like you ...

i cannot formulate nearly 60 years of bitter blood shed in to a good bad senario sorry it's not possible and you are too contrite by half to even bother with...

regardless most people who are truely informed abotu the situation which you are not, would advise the following.

There is not a equitiability between the Palestinians and the Israelis for many reasons the prime one being economic, the second would be militariseation.

To therefore attempt to reconcile the differences between the two sides you would there for have to address the prime imbalance and reduce the secondary imabalance to a negligable amount.

This simply cannot be done in terms of splitting things 50/50 as realistically speaking the current split is 90/10 in favour of the state of Israel. therefore a redress of 50/50 would only affect the following generations which being born into an inequitable split of 90/10 would mean in reality it would take over 20 generations before the redress kicked in. ie if you are educated and have career propects and live in tel aviv at aged 10 then you are likely to be able to find employment and progress when you are 20 if this person went on to have children at aged 30 those children would then by the time you were 40 be significantly more advangtaged.

if you are impoverished and poorly educated in gaza at aged 10 then you will remain impoverished and poorly educated at aged 20 at 30 you will be impoverished and pooly educated and had children and then become further impoverished by having children (kid's cost) at 40 those children aged 10 will be significantly behind.

thus the inequtiy grows.

you should be able to understand this model mears, it's simple economics, and also the foundation of the US govt.s fiscal polices, which you support.

The assumption that the playng field is a level one is to totally misrepresent the current situation. It's loaded dice game and the loosers are by it's design the Palestinian people. To suddenly say that the old dice have been change for unloaded dice doesn't cancel out the debt from the previous loosing streak...

the apportionment of blame is a traditional tactic of some one to ill conceived in their own mind to understand that the situation isn't about who did what it's about how to reverse the trend of creating further indetured peoples?

ironically we already have a prime example of what happens when you assume there is an equity of peoples within south africa; if you were born poor in soweto during aparthide then you are likely to die poor in soweto under unified SA ...

I'm sure that you will now attempt to dig up 1 or 2 examples of people who made it out and attempt to use this as method to unseat the point but those examples will be a minority who in effect got luckly, they will not be the norm...

Until a situation arises where a Palestinian child is born into the same inherent rights as an Isaeli child there can be no equiality of oppertunity and with out that there can be no resolution...

in furture stay out of these threads mears you stupidity and lack of knowledge on the subject matter coupled with you fundmentalist neocon world outlook not only makes you look like a calious and unthinking bastard but also highlights your boardline racist tendancies in regard to Arabs...

I'll leave you with two quotes from people i met in Israel and in Palestine

I will kill a thousand of them, me pesonally... It is our land, they know it is our land and we know it is our land

why are you stopping me from farming my land, why can't you just leave, go away

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The Palestinian leadership has been corrupt and incompetent. A culture of suicide bombing has also taken hold amongst many Palestinians. I think these are two examples of poor behavior by the Palestinians.

you are such a cretin

you have no facts

you speak only lies to re-enforce your own racist agenda...

shut up and get off this thread

however mears if we are to respond in kind

The Israeli leadership has been corrupt and incompetent. A culture of systematic terror has also taken hold amongst many Israelis. I think these are two examples of poor behavior by the Israelis.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Whatever the rights and wrongs about that, plenty of people have been born there since then, and kicking them all out would be rather nasty.

sorry i dont' understand this point?

do you mean that people born into a conflict caused by their forefathers are not responsible for their actions? That collective guilt will not resolve the issue and that an exodous of these people forceably would be unjust?

or do you mean that the fact that the occupation has gone on since 1947 and children have been raised in stolen land and homes since that time it in some manner ligitimises the occupation.

or do you mean we should forget the past as it's in the past and therefore those killed in the nakbah/the disporia should be forgotten because there are children there now?

tbh the point is moot anyway, those israeli children born into the situation are now in greater numbers than ever before rejectign the state of israel and becoming concisencious objectors refusing to futher the fight and removingt hemselves from areas that israel occupies and do a lot humanitarian work to try and achive the israeli withdrawal...

you point makes the assumption that those now living in the occupied territories all wish to remain... many do not...

 

[cemertyone]

My army? No sport, I place blame to both sides in this conflict.

What about you?

Well fuck thats a surprise that you " place blame on both sides" because i have not seen that from a single post you have made on the subject...and me well i lay the blame for the conflict fairly and squarly with the occupiers......is that simple enough for you...or do you want me to give you a rather longer answer....its the occuipiation that drives the violence not the other way around kiddo....

 

[nino_savatte]

Whatever the rights and wrongs about that, plenty of people have been born there since then, and kicking them all out would be rather nasty.

No shit but what's happened since has created a cycle of violence that has yet to be broken. I would also like to offer you other examples of partitioning: India/Pakistan and Ireland...would you describe these as success stories? I wouldn't.

 

[nino_savatte]

The Palestinian leadership has been corrupt and incompetent. A culture of suicide bombing has also taken hold amongst many Palestinians. I think these are two examples of poor behavior by the Palestinians.

The US leadership is corrupt and incompetent. What's your point? Oh aye, you're just encoding your racism into neutral-sounding language.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Palestinian leadership has been corrupt and incompetent. A culture of suicide bombing has also taken hold amongst many Palestinians. I think these are two examples of poor behavior by the Palestinians.

No wonder Jesus wept.

 

[mears]

Well fuck thats a surprise that you " place blame on both sides" because i have not seen that from a single post you have made on the subject...and me well i lay the blame for the conflict fairly and squarly with the occupiers......is that simple enough for you...or do you want me to give you a rather longer answer....its the occuipiation that drives the violence not the other way around kiddo....

Simple thinking for simple minds like you.

Palestinians good, Israelis bad.

A 5 year old could not say it better than you.

 

[nino_savatte]

Is it any better than Israelis good, Palestinians bad? It's just as simplistic as what you are proposing, mears.

Pot-kettle-black, my little Bakewell tart.

 

[mears]

no i dont' think like you ...

i cannot formulate nearly 60 years of bitter blood shed in to a good bad senario sorry it's not possible and you are too contrite by half to even bother with...

regardless most people who are truely informed abotu the situation which you are not, would advise the following.

There is not a equitiability between the Palestinians and the Israelis for many reasons the prime one being economic, the second would be militariseation.

To therefore attempt to reconcile the differences between the two sides you would there for have to address the prime imbalance and reduce the secondary imabalance to a negligable amount.

This simply cannot be done in terms of splitting things 50/50 as realistically speaking the current split is 90/10 in favour of the state of Israel. therefore a redress of 50/50 would only affect the following generations which being born into an inequitable split of 90/10 would mean in reality it would take over 20 generations before the redress kicked in. ie if you are educated and have career propects and live in tel aviv at aged 10 then you are likely to be able to find employment and progress when you are 20 if this person went on to have children at aged 30 those children would then by the time you were 40 be significantly more advangtaged.

if you are impoverished and poorly educated in gaza at aged 10 then you will remain impoverished and poorly educated at aged 20 at 30 you will be impoverished and pooly educated and had children and then become further impoverished by having children (kid's cost) at 40 those children aged 10 will be significantly behind.

thus the inequtiy grows.

you should be able to understand this model mears, it's simple economics, and also the foundation of the US govt.s fiscal polices, which you support.

The assumption that the playng field is a level one is to totally misrepresent the current situation. It's loaded dice game and the loosers are by it's design the Palestinian people. To suddenly say that the old dice have been change for unloaded dice doesn't cancel out the debt from the previous loosing streak...

the apportionment of blame is a traditional tactic of some one to ill conceived in their own mind to understand that the situation isn't about who did what it's about how to reverse the trend of creating further indetured peoples?

ironically we already have a prime example of what happens when you assume there is an equity of peoples within south africa; if you were born poor in soweto during aparthide then you are likely to die poor in soweto under unified SA ...

I'm sure that you will now attempt to dig up 1 or 2 examples of people who made it out and attempt to use this as method to unseat the point but those examples will be a minority who in effect got luckly, they will not be the norm...

Until a situation arises where a Palestinian child is born into the same inherent rights as an Isaeli child there can be no equiality of oppertunity and with out that there can be no resolution...

in furture stay out of these threads mears you stupidity and lack of knowledge on the subject matter coupled with you fundmentalist neocon world outlook not only makes you look like a calious and unthinking bastard but also highlights your boardline racist tendancies in regard to Arabs...

I'll leave you with two quotes from people i met in Israel and in Palestine

Never heard you speak about Palestinian suffering at the hands of others. The discrimination Palestinians face in Lebanon or Egypt for instance. Palestinians kicked out of Kuwait after the first Gulf War on the false pretense of conspiring with Saddam.

But than you don't even know about it. Besides, if a correlation can't be made with US and a perceived suffering you and none of you other bullshit artists even care.

You are a complete moron.

 

[TAE]

GarfieldLeChat & nino_savatte - so what are you suggesting the residents of tel-aviv should do? Back up their bags and go? Go where?

 

[nino_savatte]

GarfieldLeChat & nino_savatte - so what are you suggesting the residents of tel-aviv should do? Back up their bags and go? Go where?

No, did I indicate that anywhere in my posts?

 

[JLN88]

No, did I indicate that anywhere in my posts?

yes, yes you did

 

[ViolentPanda]

yes, yes you did

The correct form would be to quote the mail where you contend he made such a point.

It's one of the reasons there's a "quote post" function.

If you're unable to get your head around the "quote post" function then just cut and paste the offending sentence and cite the post number.

 

[mears]

GarfieldLeChat & nino_savatte - so what are you suggesting the residents of tel-aviv should do? Back up their bags and go? Go where?

The don't suggest anything, its all anger and complaints.

They will tell you what they don't like or want. But alternative suggestions? forget about it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The don't suggest anything, its all anger and complaints.

They will tell you what they don't like or want. But alternative suggestions? forget about it.

Same bullshit, different forum.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

The don't suggest anything, its all anger and complaints.

They will tell you what they don't like or want. But alternative suggestions? forget about it.

right that is slander young man care to back that up with refferences and state how I'm not coming up with solutions .. careful now you see usually you cannot slander a person on the internet, however in this case as my working name is the same as my board name... you are a bit fucked...

you see you always manage to step over that line and there's a fair few people both uk and palestine based which will be able to appear in a uk court to defend me...

so put up or retract you oderous, snivelling, racist, shit.

you have 24 hours...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

GarfieldLeChat & nino_savatte - so what are you suggesting the residents of tel-aviv should do? Back up their bags and go? Go where?

no love that's daft, besides which tel aviv has been settled for some time, however i am suggesting that mala ad'dumim, ariel and hebron settlements are compleately removed as per the un citeation as they are all illegal...

again you have posted up a red herring to detract from the argument, why are you continually setting up straw men...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Never heard you speak about Palestinian suffering at the hands of others. The discrimination Palestinians face in Lebanon or Egypt for instance. Palestinians kicked out of Kuwait after the first Gulf War on the false pretense of conspiring with Saddam.

But than you don't even know about it. Besides, if a correlation can't be made with US and a perceived suffering you and none of you other bullshit artists even care.

You are a complete moron.

futher slander again back up this comment mears or face the consiquences ...

24 hours...

 

[nino_savatte]

yes, yes you did

Did I fuck. Now either apologise or produce some 'evidence'. I know you will do neither.

 

[nino_savatte]

The don't suggest anything, its all anger and complaints.

They will tell you what they don't like or want. But alternative suggestions? forget about it.

It's not as if you offer "alternative suggestions" but you don't understand the meaning of the word "hypocrisy" do you?