Getting Mugged In Brixton

[detective-boy]

If the police come from or live in the area themselves, then there's more likelihood of intimidation and corruption.

I'm afraid that is a big (and I think unfair) indictment of the communities in some areas.

Whilst there will be some intimidation issues to overcome, at least in the first instance, I think they would be low-level and manageable and I would hope that the anticipated advantages - better understanding by the police and better acceptance by the (law abiding, vast majority) community - would mean that there would not be an environment in which such intimidation could thrive.

As for corruption, I do not agree at all. I do not see that that would be a significantly different situation to now and, again, the improved community-police relationship should mean that the motivations for corruption (on both sides) would reduce.

 

[JWH]

The loss of routine non-confrontational encounters between police and public is, in my opionion, DEFINITELY having a negative effect.

JUst as a half-remembered side note: there was a programme on the BBC a few years ago that mentioned some sort of research that said that the people most likely to have the highest opinion of cops were those who had least actual contact with them; and that the cops' popularity with the middle classes plummetted with the advent of drink-driving laws, when the m/cs started getting stopped/nicked by the cops in large numbers. If I could remember the slightest bit of information about the poll itself, that would be helpful...

 

[detective-boy]

There was a programme on the BBC a few years ago that mentioned some sort of research that said that the people most likely to have the highest opinion of cops were those who had least actual contact with them...

Don't have a reference myself either - but it was definitely carried out and that is what it found. And, in my experience, that is reality!

 

[Louloubelle]

sorry to hear this hendo
I got mugged right outside my home 4 years ago
It was very scary and I couldn't believe what had happened

I was mugged by a white guy who stepped out of a car and asked me for directions

he grabbed my bag and with me still caught up in the strap jumped into a car and his accomplice, an apparently pregnant woman, drove off

It pulled a strip of skin off my arm, but other than that I wasn't hurt. I could have been pulled along by the bag and killed.

The police actually caught the man (he'd been driving around on a crack binge mugging people and taking crack for 36 hours)

He asked the police to apologise to me

I did feel sorry for him, I was shaken up but not badly hurt, he ended up in prison and with his life in ruins

at the end of the day, you're you and you have more opportunities, more love and more good things in your life than these people have and your future looks so much brighter than theirs

I'm not making excuses for them or saying you should forgive them, just pointing out that it's better to be you than to be them

hope you feel better soon

loulou

 

[gaijingirl]

sorry to hear this hendo
I got mugged right outside my home 4 years ago
It was very scary and I couldn't believe what had happened

I was mugged by a white guy who stepped out of a car and asked me for directions

he grabbed my bag and with me still caught up in the strap jumped into a car and his accomplice, an apparently pregnant woman, drove off

It pulled a strip of skin off my arm, but other than that I wasn't hurt. I could have been pulled along by the bag and killed.

The police actually caught the man (he'd been driving around on a crack binge mugging people and taking crack for 36 hours)

He asked the police to apologise to me

I did feel sorry for him, I was shaken up but not badly hurt, he ended up in prison and with his life in ruins

at the end of the day, you're you and you have more opportunities, more love and more good things in your life than these people have and your future looks so much brighter than theirs

I'm not making excuses for them or saying you should forgive them, just pointing out that it's better to be you than to be them

hope you feel better soon

loulou

Almost exactly the same thing happened to a friend of mine in Brixton about 4 years ago... I wonder if you're the same person...

 

[HST]

Sorry to hear about this Hendo.

They're using the good cop/bad cop routine with victims now?

Sorry - but that made me laugh. But tbh when I was a victim of crime the police approach was very aggressive. Like I'd caused it? Weird people.

 

[Louloubelle]

Almost exactly the same thing happened to a friend of mine in Brixton about 4 years ago... I wonder if you're the same person...

stocky white guy, 5'8" ish blonde, pierced eyebrow, wore a scarf round the lower part of his face

Like a fool I stood and waited for him to rob me while he adjusted his scarf, which was falling from his face

because I saw a pregnant women in tears in the car I thought that they'd been having a lover's quarrel, and imagined that was why there was a funny vibe coming from him

this was in camden, but as they were in a car I suppose they could have been driving round london, I think it was January, it was bloody cold anyway

small world if it was the same guy

edited to add

he might have been the same person, but Im not IYKWIM

 

[hendo]

sorry to hear this hendo

hope you feel better soon

loulou

Thanks for all the lovely messages. It wasn't that bad but I wish the police had caught them.

The incident has definitely made me more nervous on the street, checking everyone out in case they decide to have a go.

Tonight I went out for a takeaway (Rising High on Railton Rd if you're wondering: very nice) and there were some guys on bikes in the middle of the street wheeling around, smoking dope, and shouting aggressively at people.

And I really wished I was somewhere else.

 

[Trivia]

Street Crime in SE24

Hendo, I'm really sorry to hear about your mugging and hope you're ok.

I live in Poets Cnr as do several of my mates - one has been mugged and had his car broken into on his street in the last month, and last night someone else was mugged outside his place.

2 streets away we were burgled in July, and one the same street a friend had a car broken into in the same week.

1 street away another friend had a bike stolen from her house and in Feb had a burgler came through her front window with an axe.

I'm glad to say that my experience resulted with helpful police, who, while they didn't give us false hope about getting our gear back, were sympathetic and professional.

What I'm worried about is the prevalence of crime in our neighbourhood and am interested to know if there are any neighbourhood watch groups out there, lobby groups or places we can get some help from in our area.

I'm at +++++ if anyone would rather contact me off list.
<I've removed your email or you'll get spammed to within an inch of your life...best thing is to get people to send you a private message. Mrs M>

 

[pooka]

What I'm worried about is the prevalence of crime in our neighbourhood and am interested to know if there are any neighbourhood watch groups out there, lobby groups or places we can get some help from in our area.

1. You can try your Local Area Committee, a grouping of Brixton ward councillors. They allow public input at their meetings:

Wednesday 7 Spetember 7:00 pm

Brixton Area Committee

Location: St Matthew's Tenants Hall, St Matthews Road, SW2

Status: Open to the public

Brixton Area Committee

2. The Brixton Area Forum has a Crime Working Group that looks specifically at the issues. They don't have a website but if you contact the Town Centre Manager will give you the info.

Christine Sipidias
Interim Town Centre Manager
Tel: 020 7926 1097
[email protected]

3. The Community-Police Consultative Group is a borough wide body, but often has very local items brought up at its meetings, especially in respect of Brixton, given the problems in the town centre especially.

CPCG for Lambeth

{edited to add}..Is Poet's Corner not in Herne Hill Ward? If so, then you are in a 'Safer Neighbourhood' which has a dedicated team of police officers and CPSO's, but also a 'Community Panel' of local people who are meant to help set policing priorities for the Ward. I can't find anything on the web saying how you cantact them (Lambeth Borough Met Website thinks there are still only three Safer Neighbouhood Wards*) but I guess an enquiry to the borough police might give you a lead.

* There are now 8 - there is an ongoing discussion of Safer Neighbourhoods and their accessibilty in the May and June CPCG minutes

 

[urbanspaceman]

"...What I'm worried about is the prevalence of crime in our neighbourhood and am interested to know if there are any neighbourhood watch groups out there, lobby groups or places we can get some help from in our area..."

After a recent BAC meeting, Val Shawcross, the GLA member for Lambeth and Southwark seemed a bit surprised at how the Community Safety police officer had repeatedly dismissed story after story from members of the audience about their personal experiences of crime, and then walked out, after telling us that crime was falling.

Ironically, at that very moment, a woman was being stabbed in Tate Gradens. In the following ten days, a man was shot in throat in Windrush Square, and then another stabbed to death in St. Matthews Peace Gradens. This seems to have caused a flurry of police activity and Shawcross has been in touch since, asking whether things have have changed. It seems to me that most of my neighbours have also had brushes with crime recently, and that the situation - anecdotally - has detoriorated in the past few years.

 

[hendo]

I have no idea if the situation has improved or deteriorated recently in our immediate local area, and because the police are exempted from legislation governing freedom of information there may be no way to say for sure.

And according to some people they massage the figures by registering some types of crime as others by the use of technicalities.

The cost of my mugging is amazing. The keys being recut and my watch replaced has cost me £100 - the excess on my home contents insurance.

The ticketed Death Machine has had to be garaged and its locks totally replaced, another 100 quid excess, and a several hundred quid bill to the insurers.

It'll have to go back in again, because the computer controlling the airbag mechanism has been damaged in the process.

A monumental pain in the arse.

 

[urbanspaceman]

Are recorded crimes State Secrets ?

I have found it difficult to get even the sketchiest of details of crimes that have happened, even if they were in the public realm, and witnessed by many bystanders. So I wrote to Superintendent Zinzan in July:


"Dear Superintendent Zinzan

At the most recent Brixton Area Committee meeting, I was given your email address by [name]. I have appended an email exchange with GLA member Val Shawcross about crime in the Tate Gardens/Windrush Square area, and I am writing to you about an issue that has arisen during these communications with her.

I wanted to get my facts straight when writing to Val Shawcross, and so I called Brixton Police Station (using the 7326 1212 number) to find out the crime number, date and time, location and brief details of two recent incidents (stabbing 13/7/05 and shooting 15/7/05) in Tate Gardens/Windrush Square.

In the stabbing case, after some perseverance, I was successful in getting these details. But in the shooting case I decided that it would be wiser to give up, as the police officer I was speaking to forcefully told me that there was no way he would give me any details, and then began to accuse me of wasting police time in a quite intimidating manner (no doubt you have a recording of this). But I later found that DC Danny Lynch had made a press appeal for information concerning the shooting case, which puts it firmly in the public domain.

In both cases, most of the police and civilian staff I dealt with reflexively adopted a position of refusing to give out details, citing variously data protection, human rights, confidentiality or operational considerations. They stated that the public has no right to know even the bare facts of an incident, and seemed to improvise policy as they went along to back up their beliefs.

A few people understood what I was asking for and why, and were extremely helpful.

Given the above, I would be grateful if you could elucidate these points:

are recorded crimes/incidents a matter of public record and thus in the public domain?

Is there a Metropolitan Police policy on restricting public knowledge of the facts or indeed the existence of a crime/incident?

I look forward to hearing from you, and appreciate that this may take some time, given current events,"


The message was acknowledged and a response promised, and that's the last I heard of it.

Could any Urbanites with legal understanding clarify this issue ?

If a crime is recorded by the police, is this information in the public domain ?

I have found that a perverse effect of the Freedom of Information Act is that the police now cite it automatically in response to a request for ANY information at all, leading to an overall reduction in freedom of information.

 

[pooka]

After a recent BAC meeting, Val Shawcross, the GLA member for Lambeth and Southwark seemed a bit surprised at how the Community Safety police officer had repeatedly dismissed story after story from members of the audience about their personal experiences of crime, and then walked out, after telling us that crime was falling.

It's fair to say that over the borough, over the long run crime has been fallen substantially (Monthly Crime Stats from April 2000, but the picture can be very different locally. That said, when I joined Urban75 in 2002, it felt like there was a new 'I got mugged last night' thread every other day, many of them up Brixton Hill or in the area you refer to.

You can get some Ward level figures if you type your postcode in at the bottom of this page. Some boroughs (like Camden) make 'hot-spot' information available on the web.

The police do have to comply with the FoI, but there are exemptions. For details, see here

Sorry to hear of your grief, hendo.

 

[hendo]

You can get some Ward level figures if you type your postcode in at the bottom of this page. Some boroughs (like Camden) make 'hot-spot' information available on the web..

A 10.6% rise in 'robberies against the person' this year in Lambeth!

I challenge passing Met Chiefs, and I know of at least one who lurks here, to come on this thread and explain this massive increase.

 

[lang rabbie]

A 10.6% rise in 'robberies against the person' this year in Lambeth!

I challenge passing Met Chiefs, and I know of at least one who lurks here, to come on this thread and explain this massive increase.

If you pass your mouse over the ward map, the borough average conceals massive variations -down 0.2% in Stockwell (which is now below the borough average) but up 19.6% in Bishops (South Bank ), up 25.8% in Thurlow Park (leafy west Dulwich plus Tulse Hill station???) and up 35.9% in Knights Hill (the area south of West Norwood station)

 

[detective-boy]

I have no idea if the situation has improved or deteriorated recently in our immediate local area, and because the police are exempted from legislation governing freedom of information there may be no way to say for sure.

No, they are not exempted. It's just that as they deal with crimes and prosecutions the general exemptions (from releasing particular items of information) where criminal investigations or prosecutions may be prejudiced apply more than with most public authorities.

And according to some people they massage the figures by registering some types of crime as others by the use of technicalities.

Crime statistics of all types are prone to this sort of error. Many offences require "intent" so if no-one is arrested / interviewed how do you know if it was a crime or not? (e.g. A stone appears through your front window. If no-one saw it happen how do you know whether to recrd it as a crime (criminal damage) or not (an accident when kids were messing about)). The police over the last 20 years have been driven into removing any institutional massaging of the figures and I am fairly sure that there is no deliberate large-scale massaging any more. That said, for other structural reasons I still treat crime statistics with a HUGE pinch of salt.

There are lies, damned lies and statistics ... and then there are crime statistics!

 

[detective-boy]

If a crime is recorded by the police, is this information in the public domain ?

Yes and no.

In a depersonalised form, as part of overall statistics, yes.
In more detail if there is a specific operational reason (e.g. search for witnesses, to alert the public, to prevent further offences, etc.), yes.
In precise detail (e.g. crime numbers, names, descriptions of victims, sometimes exact locations (e.g. door numbers)) routinely, no.

Part of this is due to the Data Protection Act - details of what happened to you the victim is personal information and you are entitled to not have your business generally known about. Part is due to potential for fraud / further offences (e.g. identity theft, repeat victimisation, insurance fraud (misuse of crime numbers), etc.). Part is simply practical - to release accurate details (and appropriate updates as more becomes known) on hundreds and hundreds of cases is simply too time consuming.

Part of it is due to the fact that you cannot expect to ring a massive organisation and speak to a member of staff pretty much at random and expect them to be able to make a judgement on the rights and wrongs of releasing any information immediately. You would need to speak to the actual officer responsible for each specific incident and / or a manager of probably Chief Inspector or above level to get a decision and, even then, it may not be made immediately. Writing to the Chief Superintendent would be the most likely way of actually getting a meaningful response (eventually). They have a Citizens Charter type response target for letters (which is still 10 days I think) so sounds like Dave Zinzan needs a gentle reminder!!

Your request for crime numbers probably set alarm bells ringing - why would someone want or need that information other than the victim?

Depersonalised crime details are released in any number of forms locally to neighbourhood groups, local authority level groups, borough panels of various sorts, force-wide bodies, local and regional media, etc. etc. etc. Many are available on the internet with a bit of research on various police, local autority, Home Office and other websites.

 

[detective-boy]

I challenge passing Met Chiefs, and I know of at least one who lurks here, to come on this thread and explain this massive increase.

In some cases large percentage rises are a result of actual total crime numbers going down.

In most areas street crime (primarily robbery) has gone up since April due to the end of one year Home Office "Safer Streets" project funding which allowed many boroughs to run dedicated street crime units for the year April 2004-5 and which saw very significant reductions in crime in many areas. Most boroughs would have liked to have kept the units but could not find the funding out of their normal budgets once the project funding ended.

 

[hendo]

In some cases large percentage rises are a result of actual total crime numbers going down.

How can this be? A percentage rise in mugging numbers must surely be indicative of - an increase in muggings, no?

And point of order Mr Speaker, the police have six useful exemptions to the Freedom of Information legislation, including:

"information relating to planned police operations, including specific planned operations, and policies and procedures relating to operational activity;"

which is a pretty broad exemption, although it doesn't really include the crime figures.

 

[Bob]

How can this be? A percentage rise in mugging numbers must surely be indicative of - an increase in muggings, no?

And point of order Mr Speaker, the police have six useful exemptions to the Freedom of Information legislation, including:

"information relating to planned police operations, including specific planned operations, and policies and procedures relating to operational activity;"

which is a pretty broad exemption, although it doesn't really include the crime figures.

There's no way they'd be able to withold statistics under FOI... the only things they can really withold are those where it would impair specific operations. Any attempt to withold it would be fairly easily ruled on by the Ombudsman. My advice (as a professional complainer) is to rapidly complain if you don't get a quick decision - a lot of organisations drag their feet so need to be pushed into giving a decision in the first place.

 

[detective-boy]

How can this be? A percentage rise in mugging numbers must surely be indicative of - an increase in muggings, no?

There were 100 muggings last month. There have been 101 this month. That is one more mugging. It is a 1% increase.

There were 10 muggings last month. There have been 11 this month. That is one more mugging. It is a 10% increase.

There was 1 mugging last month. There have been 2 this month. That is one more mugging. It is a 50% increase.

Beware of the police / media / anyone else with an axe to grind selecting one or other format to make a more dramatic point to suit their purpose!

 

[Stobart Stopper]

Beware of the police / media / anyone else with an axe to grind selecting one or other format to make a more dramatic point to suit their purpose!

And beware of how the police try to get your crime categorised, if you get your arm yanked and your bag nicked they will try to put it down as a snatch when in fact it should be logged as robbery or robbery/assault.
The average person in the street doesn't know this and goes along with whatever the police say.

 

[detective-boy]

And beware of how the police try to get your crime categorised, if you get your arm yanked and your bag nicked they will try to put it down as a snatch when in fact it should be logged as robbery or robbery/assault.
The average person in the street doesn't know this and goes along with whatever the police say.

They will classify it as they wish (subject to the somewhat complex Home Office Guidelines), regardless of your wishes. If there is a theft from the person AND an assault then the guidelines will define what it needs to be recorded as (last time I knew it was just "Theft from the person" if the victim was the same person, with no additional crime of assault recorded, though that may have changed)

For your information a "mugging" (not a recognised legal term) may be classified as:

- Robbery - where the bag is stolen and force is used or threatened before, or at the time of, the theft AND in order to carry it out (e.g. you won't let go of the strap so they pull a knife and hold it at your throat so you let go and they get the bag)
- Theft (from the person) - the stealing of the bag, from the person of the victim. No specific assault involved, although there may be a limited amount of "collateral" force used (eg the pulling of your arm as the strap pulls off your shoulder and down your arm).
- Theft (from the person) AND Assault (of whatever grade, Common Assault, ABH, GBH) dependant on injury caused) if there are two seperate parts to the incident (e.g. your bag is snatched, you chase after and catch them and they then punch you in the mouth to make their getaway, the assault being after the theft and not in order to complete it).

It doesn't really have much effect because Theft from the person and Robbery classifications are both included in most calculations of street crime and it makes absolutely no difference to whether or not your crime gets investigated or prosecuted in any particular way.

 

[Stobart Stopper]

You know that's not true, if they can downgrade it they will. Got to keep the Home Office happy haven't they?

 

[pooka]

Street Crime = Robbery +Snatch Thefts. It's been like that for ages, certainly back in the time when they had the Downing Street summits and all the rest. Last year, they went through a phase of just quoting robbery (persons and business's) but now they've gone back to Street Crime.

If you can be arsed, and download the data from here then you can do the sums yourself. And if you're really devoted, you can follow the trends over several months and find that Robbery and Snatches are pretty well correlated (for Lambeth at least), so which definition you use won't change your conclusion of which way it's trending.

 

[Leighsw2]

what about the evidence of our own eyes?

without wishing to get drawn into this ongoing argument about 'lies, damned lies and crime statistics', what about the evidence of our own eyes? I live in the heart of Brixton, just off Coldharbour, and I swear that in the last 6 months this area has become as scary as I can remember (and I've been here 15 years!) Half the time, my street seems to have become an outdoor crack house, even in broad daylight!

Seems to me that the July 7 bombings have had another consequence - playtime for crims as the police are occupied full-time fruitlessley searching for more bombers. It certainly feels that way in Brixton at the moment!

 

[Mrs Magpie]

I think it's a bit swings and roundabouts. When I first moved to the area in 1981 burglaries were rife. Every time I got home from work I half expected to find the door kicked in. I doubt this will show on statistics as people who weren't insured (the vast majority as it was hard or too expensive to obtain) didn't bother reporting them.

 

[Leighsw2]

I think it's a bit swings and roundabouts. When I first moved to the area in 1981 burglaries were rife. Every time I got home from work I half expected to find the door kicked in. I doubt this will show on statistics as people who weren't insured (the vast majority as it was hard or too expensive to obtain) didn't bother reporting them.

fair enough, but i do find crack heads pretty scary and there seem to be loads of them hovering around central brixton at the moment - it's like 'invasion of the zombies' out there!

 

[john x]

I must ....

agree with Mrs M on this one. I have lived in a similar area (just off Loughborough Junction) for over twenty years and it doesn't seem that different.

In the old days we were burgled on a regular basis (about once every six months) and I had a van that was broken into so many times I used to leave the front doors unlocked in the end, as there was never anything in it worth as much as the £40 it cost me to replace the side window.

As Mrs M mentioned, insurance premiums went through the roof (if you could still get it- we couldn't) so most stuff went unreported. And returning to an earlier theme, the cops didn't give a shit if you did report anything. (even arson!)

john x