"Get them Polish out of your house or I'll burn it down"

[invisibleplanet]

I never said the police caused the situation, but they certainly are culpable in terms of contributing to the spiralling nature of the problem.

I did not know you had gone even further in supporting the police, that comment is beyond your remit btw.

Your first comment contradicts your second comment. You can't blame the police and then want them to take punitive action against the young tribalists at the same time.

What's required is whole community (regardless of political affiliation) direct action.
Step one. Ask them what they'd rather be doing other than snorting phet on your doorstep.
Step two. Find a way to make that happen. If they want somewhere to hang out and shoot some pool, then that's actually not too difficult to achieve. (e.g. Working Mens' Clubs usually have a spare room available during the week days). Informal dialogue from sincerely concerned community members can lead to lasting change.

Re-read the article, and spot the point where community direct action resources (people-power) could have been introduced and changed the outcome.

 

[The Black Hand]

A) My saying that it's a descent into tribalism is sociologically correct.

B)There is no comment that is beyond my remit, dear authoritarian-protagonist that you are.

A) Not absolutely correct, for everywhere and for everyone...
B) Supporting the police to do nothing is beyond your remit, they do that very well themselves, there really was no need for your comment. As for authoritarian protagonist, that my friend, is not me. I am radically anti authoritiarian more than you can ever know i think, and as such those comments are not true at all. SO you should have said 'Anti Authoritarian protagonist'.

 

[rioted]

Attica: are you saying you want the police to take more action, to bust more skulls, to lock more people up?

 

[invisibleplanet]

The situation has little to do with the police, Attica, and why would I or any other anarchist even consider them when formulating solutions? Exactly how would that achieve a sense of being 'on side' for these 'lost boys' ?

 

[The Black Hand]

Your first comment contradicts your second comment. You can't blame the police and then want them to take punitive action against the young tribalists at the same time.

What's required is whole community (regardless of political affiliation) direct action.
Step one. Ask them what they'd rather be doing other than snorting phet on your doorstep.
Step two. Find a way to make that happen. If they want somewhere to hang out and shoot some pool, then that's actually not too difficult to achieve.

You have identified a 'non existant contradiction' because of your failure to understand the totality, and the root causes of the problems. I identified capitalism as being the problem, and the police contributed to the spiralling decline of the area by pretending to do something and really not. I never said I wanted the police to act against any working class people.

 

[Crispy]

Unfrotunately the dismantling of capitalism and its replacement with something better has been delayed due to budget cuts, so we'll have to try and figure out some way of at least patching up this mess in the mean time.

 

[invisibleplanet]

The police have not caused this situation. What you want from them is outside of their remit. There is no blame that can be thrown at the police (or the state/government who are absolutely useless for solving this matter and why trust them to act?). The fault lies in social and economic* decay.

But direct community action doesn't need to operate within a capitalist economic sphere at all. We can introduce gift-exchange systems and other systems to achieve our aims. Local businesses will always donate equipment - I've been there and tried this. Crikey - whole 'scout sheds' can be re-glazed this way

(*yes, capitalist economics)

 

[invisibleplanet]

Unfrotunately the dismantling of capitalism and its replacement with something better has been delayed due to budget cuts, so we'll have to try and figure out some way of at least patching up this mess in the mean time.

Absolutely, Crispy! We don't have the time or resources to focus on that. Capitalism might last for 10 years or another 1000.

There are other more important things that need urgent attention. One of those is community!

 

[Crispy]

Absolutely, Crispy! We don't have the time or resources to focus on that. Capitalism might last for 10 years or another 1000.

There are other more important things that need urgent attention. One of those is community!

Word to that. Build the foundations for Something Better, or the dismantling of capitalism is going to leave everybody shivering in the cold at the mercy of the sharks.

 

[cockneyrebel]

It's not within police power to solve these problems

But this is besides the point. The police, whether it's their fault or remit or not are totally redundant in areas like this. They don't and/or can't do anything. Whatever the reasons for this is another matter but for large parts of the country the police serve next to no useful purpose other than in the most extreme circumstances. They are totally unable to do anything about most crime (look at the clear up rates) and most anti-social behaviour.

Because of their impotence and ineptitude it often leads to their surly attitude that most people have encountered.

 

[invisibleplanet]

But this is besides the point.

And you appear to have missed the point.

I don't know Salford at all, but that story is reminiscent of what happened in the former coalfield towns/cities.

Critical mass has been reached, and energy needs to be focused on finding solutions that don't involve the police.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Critical mass has been reached, and energy needs to be focused on finding solutions that don't involve the police.

I agree with this. That's not my point.

I was merely pointing out how useless the police are for large parts of the population.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Build the foundations for Something Better, or the dismantling of capitalism is going to leave everybody shivering in the cold at the mercy of the sharks.

Word to that.

 

[Spion]

you should have said 'Anti Authoritarian protagonist'.

There's nothing more authoritarian than violence, and you are no pacifist, are you?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

One of the ways to rescue those areas that have suffered so much from Blatcherism that thjey have become feral is to pump resources into them coupled with a complete lock down of the area (curfews/summary justice/mobile courts etc) until the perpetrators of anti social behaviour have either been locked up or have changed thier ways only then can the lockdown conditions be removed.

 

[invisibleplanet]

No, Keyboard Jockey. That is not the way forward. Totalitarian tyranny is not the way forward.

 

[Crispy]

That is the way to piss people off and create a prison-institutionalised generation with no respect for community or state.

 

[invisibleplanet]

.

 

[8ball]

That is the way to piss people off and create a prison-institutionalised generation with no respect for community or state.

Hasn't that already happened?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

No, Keyboard Jockey. That is not the way forward. Totalitarian tyranny is not the way forward.

Well what do you suggest? I've seen money pumped into community facilities that have just been trashed mostly because although the environment has been improved no effort has been made to remove the scum who were responsible for making the area a shithole in the first place. Umpteen millions have been wasted in this way on cleaning up areas only for them to be fucked over by the minority of families who just trash whatever they come across and have no respect for others.

I'm seeing that there is some value in having temporary tyranny but a tryanny of the decent. There are many people who are in shit conditions who want to make better their own lives and those of their neighbours but are thwarted by those who justg want to destroy.

This is partially why I think anarchism is a load of wank as the only poeple who benefit are those with the biggest stick and the mentalness to use it willy nilly.

 

[invisibleplanet]

You don't even deserve frying pans from your nipples for that statement, dear gimp. In fact, you deserve no punitive humiliation at all.

 

[The Black Hand]

There's nothing more authoritarian than violence, and you are no pacifist, are you?

You do not understand the totality or power either.

 

[rioted]

..........no effort has been made to remove the scum who were responsible for making the area a shithole in the first place..............

That's capitalists, not the lumpen: they just make it worse.

 

[8ball]

This is partially why I think anarchism is a load of wank as the only poeple who benefit are those with the biggest stick and the mentalness to use it willy nilly.

Not relevant to the case but with anarchism you can banish people who don't want to play nice from your community and defend yourself as appropriate so a gang of little scrotes isn't much of a threat. Once you've dropped them off on a remote island of your choice they can proceed as they like.

 

[invisibleplanet]

That's capitalists, not the lumpen: they just make it worse.

Aye.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You don't even deserve frying pans from your nipples for that statement, dear gimp. In fact, you deserve no punitive humiliation at all.

But the people who are suffering from anti social behavoir are not the middle classes or the intelligensia it is ordinary working class people who want to make their areas better but are prevented from doing so by a lack of resources and intimidation from violent thugs.

In my experience the millions that are pumped into areas to make things better are wasted if a minority of thugs trash the improvements.

OK my suggestion was on the extreme end but its on the same lines of what a lot of people want to happen. People want to feel safe in their homes and want to be able to walk safely home at night and they also want their community to be a community not feel tha they are imprisoned by violent mindless wankers.

 

[The Black Hand]

The police have not caused this situation. What you want from them is outside of their remit. There is no blame that can be thrown at the police (or the state/government who are absolutely useless for solving this matter and why trust them to act?). The fault lies in social and economic* decay.

But direct community action doesn't need to operate within a capitalist economic sphere at all. We can introduce gift-exchange systems and other systems to achieve our aims. Local businesses will always donate equipment - I've been there and tried this. Crikey - whole 'scout sheds' can be re-glazed this way

(*yes, capitalist economics)

But that is the point. The police as part of the state ARE responsible for 'improving society', that is part of their raiston d'etre - to keep the Queens Peace. They have a responsibility, now more than ever (Crime and Disorder act 1998 i fink).

You have no understanding of capitalism and the capitalist state (responsible for the social and economic society of our time), you simply cannot take the police out of the equation like you are ideologically trying to do cos it suits your hippy beliefs.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

That's capitalists, not the lumpen: they just make it worse.

I'm not saying that the capitalists don't share the blame for wht has gone wrong but in some areas whenever efforts havve been made to improve things it has been trashed by wankers. If you are gong to have some form of local tyranny to clean up an area then there must be a large democratic content (subject to restrictions on racism and homophobia etc). Far too often there hasn't been democratic control of imporovements and this has made things worse.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What do they do then?

They defend privilege.

They work VERY HARD at defending privilege.

If that includes having to bust your head because you're about to hoy a paving slab through the windscreen of a Chelsea Tractor, then you're just helping them enjoy defending privilege.

 

[ViolentPanda]

What exactly are the ACAB brigade doing to help the people of Salford, out of curiosity?

Not a lot.

They're doing a lot to speed up climate change though, with all that hot air.