"Get them Polish out of your house or I'll burn it down"

[invisibleplanet]

Thing is, kids in these area/communites had a fairly safe future mapped out for them, with plenty of w/c jobs with long-term employment prospects. All of that has gone, thanks to the logic of globalisation. Community self-destruction followed when nothing was put in its place. Now these kids have no future, and they know it, so why not raises hell and do whatever the fuck they want? There's no serious alternative, and no punishment that will change their minds.

Spot on, Crispy. And the parents of those kids know their kids have no future. In some ares, esp. ex-mining communities, they've got three generations of unemployed with the latest generation going off the rails as you describe above.

The scale of serious drug abuse (heroin) in former coalfield areas is still growing exponentially.
Report from 1999: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmhansrd/vo990702/debtext/90702-13.htm
Now we're in 2008, and it's still growing. Regeneration and jobs alone are not going to solve the problem. Unlike the MP for Hemsworth, I do not commend the government's response to the increasing heroin crises in these former coalfield areas. The population of Hemsworth have become increasingly crippled by heroin addiction for the last 25 years with a massive percentage of it's adult and youth population addicted (can't find figures, but local anecdotes estimate over 1/2 of that towns population are addicts). We need action now to break the cycle. Britain has the highest proportion of users of heroin in Europe. There are methodone centres, but they treat only a tiny number of addicts (hundreds) out of the tens of thousands that exist. Other problems typical in this area include rates of suicide that are consistently amongst the highest in the country and a heroin problem that saw addiction rise by an incredible 3361% between 2000 and 2004. (wikpedia)

 

[smokedout]

· Names have been changed

is there any reason for me to suppose that anything in that story is true?

 

[invisibleplanet]

When were you last in the North, smokedout?

 

[Gramsci]

The material roots of racism are getting different sections of the working class to fight over a tiny slice of the pie.

Which is what is happening.The enlargement of the EU has been used to provide a cheap labour force.Either here in the UK or by firms moving there factories to Eastern Europe (as Peugout ,the car company, who moved there factory from the North of England to Slovakia).

I did read the article (out of interest as I know a lot of Poles now).Im not sure whether its worse up North than London.

One thing I have learned from this recent influx of East Europeans is politicians talk so much bollox.If anyone needs education its politicians-preferably in a work camp .Europe has come to London and Gordon waffles on about Britishness.

The debate that is needed is what is Europe? What kind of Europe do people want?There is a lack of history books,media coverage of Europe.Ive read a few new history books and seen a lot of East European film now.But if you want to educate yourself about Europe (a previous poster said education was important) its not that easy.

By the way its a misnomer to call Poles etc migrants.Expansion of the EU was supposed to be an area in which we can all freely move on an equal basis.

 

[rioted]

Thing is, kids in these area/communites had a fairly safe future mapped out for them, with plenty of w/c jobs with long-term employment prospects.

Same could be said for Eastern Bloc kids, but they seem to have dealt with the fall of communism in a different way. Or do we just get the more resourceful, dynamic ones?

 

[smokedout]

When were you last in the North, smokedout?

i grew up in bradford as it goes

 

[detective-boy]

It's a massive effort to turn around areas once they go this down hill. Job creation, social housing and better training, education opportunities and youth projects all play an important part but also, one way or another, communities have to be re-built.

Precisely. Which is why as long as everyone keeps expecting the police to do it they will conclude that they are "useless". It is not what they are designed, trained or resourced for. They can only deal with breaches of the law (and only then if people come forward with evidence). The problem is that society has entirely unrealistic expectations of what the police can and should be doing. The problem needs to be addressed in many other areas, the polce being held to account for failures in areas where they actually do have responsibility.

 

[detective-boy]

is there any reason for me to suppose that anything in that story is true?

Well it's just like an episode of "Shameless" ...

 

[smokedout]

innit

 

[likesfish]

SO the goverment has thrown a fuck off fence round these area's with armed guards and denying the denizens education and the right to move? I don't think so.
you could go back to college move get a grant start a business at some point there has to be some personal responsability

 

[nino_savatte]

The welfare reforms are going to have a massive impact on attitudes to immigrants, etc, by the poor, the 'underclass', etc who are going to get hammered by the cuts, etc, as they look for scapegoats. I would argue it is in the broad lefts interest to really challenge the growing poverty and inequality as the cancer it is.

So is this meant to be some sort of defence/excuse?

 

[cockneyrebel]

Thats an oversimplification.

For a start, using the example of the article its fairly clear that the writer is happy enough for various antisocial things to go on, including burgling his house, and yet when he feels he has had enough he calls the Police and expects them to deal with a situation - without his cooperation, such as going to Court - that he has let fester for a year and a half. Even then, he is amongst a very few people bothered enough to turn up to a meeting about how bad the situation is.

It is inaction by members of the community, and tolerance for anti-social behaviour that doesnt directly affect themselves that lets communities get like this - combined of course with a hugely, scandalously ineffective youth justice system, and general disinterest from most/all branches of Government. In times gone past working class areas had far worse problems to deal with and yet they did not experience this level of community self-harm inflicted by the youth of the same community.

I actually think you’re being simplistic. I don’t think he is happy to be burgled but more resigned to the fact it’s going to happen and that the police can’t or won’t do anything about it. As said though you can put forward an argument that the police have their hands tied but whatever the reason the police are useless in many areas and their clear up rate for many crimes shows this. And even those poor stats are over stated due to the fact that many criminals “admit” to lists of crimes when bartering with the police.

Also I wouldn’t say people tolerate anti-social behaviour, quite often it’s just despair. But whatever way you look at it the police are all but useless in many areas, whatever the reasons. Even if you take DBs point that there are many other problems that the police can’t deal with you still come back to the point that the role of the police in many areas is pretty much redundant.

In this country perhaps, but what about other countries where poverty is endemic, and people have close to nothing? And there's no racism/xenophobia? There's more to racism than just a lack of material things IMO.

People were a lot more hard up where I come from and there never was this amount of hatred between people, the hatred was directed against the police or the government and there was solidarity amongst people, which isn't something that happens in 'Great Britain', sadly.

It’s about playing one section of the working class against another and using material interests to do this. Racism is also based around material interests – jobs, housing etc and whether its suits the ruling interests to do this or not.

However this can be undercut by a progressive left-wing movement which is almost totally absent in the UK.

 

[rioted]

some point there has to be some personal responsability

It's been taken away by the Welfare State!

 

[likesfish]

no it hasn't
I've got no future but a dead end job so i'll turn to crime and drugs its the governments fault

in a word BOLLOCKS
your not going to walk into a job apprenticeship and be set for life but neither is any body else
you can rot on welfare with spells in and out of prison your choice
or you could get a job or go back to college and WORK HARD.
THEY ARE REAL OPTIONS AVAIL IN THE UK to think otherwise well your fecked then

 

[zoltan]

Precisely. Which is why as long as everyone keeps expecting the police to do it they will conclude that they are "useless". It is not what they are designed, trained or resourced for. They can only deal with breaches of the law (and only then if people come forward with evidence). The problem is that society has entirely unrealistic expectations of what the police can and should be doing. The problem needs to be addressed in many other areas, the polce being held to account for failures in areas where they actually do have responsibility.

Fuck me. I agree with an ex copper!

the filth are not judge dredds, able to solve local problems and mete out justice as they see fit - they are white ( MAYBE BLUE ) collar administrators ( at street plod level - Im sure DB will dispute this ... )

The emergence of ghettos full of wasteful ignorant disinterested people like this isnt the fault of more/ less copperism obviously - Im not excusing what they have done - and would probabaly ensure a few broken bones were inflicted on the selfish cunts by underhand means if I were in that situation - but its not entirely the coppers fault

 

[The Black Hand]

If it cheers anyone up, here's an anecdote:

Me mate at work rents a few houses out (he's only me mate until the Revolution, then he's up against the wall ). One of them has some Poles in it, including a young couple, lad and lass.

These two were walking up the path to the porch just before Xmas when the local shell-suit-zit-baseballcap crowd clocked them speaking Polish.

A bit of abuse, and then a brick through the window (into a room with a baby in it).

What the tossers didn't know was that the household included 7 Polish guys temporarily visiting (not in any sense staying without paying my mate rent, ahem), all over 6 foot, who dashed out and leathered the little nazi fucks. One of the instigators had the temerity to call the police, who did nowt to the Pole who broke his face, but did him for being the one who hurled the brick.

I thought that quite a heart warming little tale of wrongs righted, natural justice and good policing.

Ho ho ho said Santa

 

[The Black Hand]

Precisely. Which is why as long as everyone keeps expecting the police to do it they will conclude that they are "useless". It is not what they are designed, trained or resourced for. They can only deal with breaches of the law (and only then if people come forward with evidence). The problem is that society has entirely unrealistic expectations of what the police can and should be doing. The problem needs to be addressed in many other areas, the polce being held to account for failures in areas where they actually do have responsibility.

The problem is that the police do not like hard work. If they didn't milk the system re. sick leave, and so on, they could do lots more. They shouldn't be allowed to retire until 60 or more like the rest of us either...

 

[rioted]

If they didn't milk the system re. sick leave, and so on, they could do lots more.

I've heard that arguement by Tories about the working class for years and years and years.

 

[zoltan]

The problem is that the police do not like hard work. If they didn't milk the system re. sick leave, and so on, they could do lots more. They shouldn't be allowed to retire until 60 or more like the rest of us either...

I dont want to defend teh coppers, but you have got to be some kind of twat to ENJOY hard work for someone else - its not part of our lazy nature to relish killing ourselves unless we have to

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

forcing a houshould out cause there not local is ethnic cleansing in my book
wants to bet if he'd used any force in self defense hge'd be in the dock

you wanna look at the fuckign term and learn a sense of proportion then son...

 

[rioted]

no it hasn't
I've got no future but a dead end job so i'll turn to crime and drugs its the governments fault

in a word BOLLOCKS

The Welfare State has encouraged a line of thinking that it IS the governments fault. That may be bollocks, but lots of people have been taken in by it. Including lots of lefties who ought to know better. Personally I believe in overcoming the dependency, excuses and laziness that the Welfare State helps propogate. But (paradoxically perhaps) that will only come about through collective effort, not by getting on Tebbit's bike.

 

[tarannau]

In this country perhaps, but what about other countries where poverty is endemic, and people have close to nothing? And there's no racism/xenophobia? There's more to racism than just a lack of material things IMO.

People were a lot more hard up where I come from and there never was this amount of hatred between people, the hatred was directed against the police or the government and there was solidarity amongst people, which isn't something that happens in 'Great Britain', sadly.

Excellent point, although no surprise to see the sentiments quickly passed over by the closed-borders types who witter on about about the British working classes as if they're a special put-upon and endangered variety.

 

[The Black Hand]

I dont want to defend teh coppers, but you have got to be some kind of twat to ENJOY hard work for someone else - its not part of our lazy nature to relish killing ourselves unless we have to

The point is they DO NO WORK at all, they just swan about pretending to work...

 

[Chairman Meow]

The point is they DO NO WORK at all, they just swan about pretending to work...

What utter bollocks.

 

[The Black Hand]

I've heard that arguement by Tories about the working class for years and years and years.

That's Blair's new Labour you are on about isn't it?

Houses in any sort of future society will not be built by magic, that is not to say that people will have to slave away labouring all their lives. The point is that hard work will be shared more evenly around, for example, the aristocracy would be encouraged to work building servants, nurses, cooks, waitresses and so on better accomodation, if they couldn't all fit in the country mansions there are that is. I just happen to think that the Police should actually work, and sweat. At the minute they are too busy skiving, in the canteen, going on training, and so on...

 

[The Black Hand]

What utter bollocks.

What do they do then?

 

[invisibleplanet]

What do they do then?

The situation isn't the fault of the police - there is a descent into tribalism due to social and economic decay. It's not within police power to solve these problems - that's where direct community action comes in, which can go some, but not all of the way into improving the situation (but will probably take as many generations to improve as it took to got into).

Basically Attica - it's partly your fault if you're not directly making an input into solving this problem, and you can't blame the police for this one

 

[The Black Hand]

The situation isn't the fault of the police - there is a descent into tribalism due to social and economic decay. It's not within police power to solve these problems - that's where direct community action comes in, which can go some, but not all of the way into improving the situation (but will probably take as many generations to improve as it took to got into).

Basically Attica - it's partly your fault if you're not directly making an input into solving this problem, and you can't blame the police for this one

I never said the police caused the situation, but they certainly are culpable in terms of contributing to the spiralling nature of the problem.

I did not know you had gone even further in supporting the police, that comment is beyond your remit btw.

 

[invisibleplanet]

My saying that it's a descent into tribalism is sociologically correct.

There is no comment that is beyond my remit, dear authoritarian-protagonist that you are.

 

[mauvais]

What exactly are the ACAB brigade doing to help the people of Salford, out of curiosity?