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Germany 1940 - Israel 2009. shocking pictures

Have the intellectual and political courage to say that you think a genocide is happening right now, not weasel phrases like "conditions for genocide" might be being put in place.
Taking the UN definition of genocide, it is happening and has been since 1947. I've said that many times here. Recent events in Gaza don't change that.

Taking the context of this thread, a genocide similar to that visited on the Jews by Nazi Germany is clearly not happening, nor is it planned. However, the conditions for such a catastrophic event taking place clearly are developing.
 
http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...0&md5=8810398dcd9d183d8ffe2619c1a9cd5c#SECX11

This is a very good article IMO

9. Preconditions for genocide and the selection of a target group
Staub, 1999 and Staub, 2000 sees the evolution of “evil” (extreme human destructiveness that is not commensurate with instigating conditions) in a society as starting with the “frustration of basic human needs and the development of destructive modes of need fulfillment” (Staub, 1999, p. 181). Basic human needs include security, positive identity, effectiveness and control over essentials, connections to others and autonomy, and an understanding of the world and our place in it. The frustration of these needs begins a search for a scapegoat, in the form of a target group that can be blamed for the dissatisfaction.

What Waller (2002) calls “our ancestral shadow” is the essential tribalism that sociobiology argues is part of the human condition. In the case of tribalism, ethnic, or religious difference, the target minority is often clearly visible or made so through official identification (e.g., badges, tattoos, or identity cards). Societies whose culture officially emphasizes differences among groups, e.g., Christian versus Jew (rather than merely German), Jew versus Arab (rather than merely Israeli or Semite), facilitate this process. Even relatively transitory or ephemeral characteristics can be identified and recruited to the task merely by promoting xenophobia, a basic human reaction experienced from infancy grounded in sociobiology (Dawkins, 1976 and Tajfel & Turner, 1986). In Cambodia, the target group was designated as “educated people” (defined as anyone above Grade 7 or those who wore glasses) who had “benefited” from a bourgeois existence. In Ukraine, it was those peasants who owned “prosperous” farms, who in actuality were no different from the less prosperous in landholdings and livestock, that were initially identified as enemies of the revolution, but eventually everyone was victimized as millions starved. Some writers argue that the Russian oligarchy's ethnocentricity that cast aspersions on Ukrainians played a part in the genocide (Conquest, 1986 and Dolot, 1987).

In Staub's (1999) model, the frustration of basic needs (e.g., material deprivation, political chaos, realistic conflict) constitutes an instigating condition for destructive process; the satisfaction of a basic need in a way that interferes with the satisfaction of other basic needs. This produces heightened in-group identification, particularly among authoritarian people who seek a strong leader, perception of out-group threat, and a destructive ideology. The latter presents an exclusionary world vision and is called, in extremis, an “ideology of antagonism.” When subordinate groups demand more, they threaten the basic need satisfaction of the dominant group whose “legitimizing ideology” is threatened and who then react with increasingly harsh acts of repression and aggression. Staub (1999) argues that two types of out-group stereotyping exist. The lesser is devaluation of the out-group. The more intense form specifically sees the out-group as having achieved gains through prior injustice. (Hitler saw the Jews this way and the Hutu extremists portrayed the Tutsi in this way, (note Davenport & Stam's, 2004, description of Rwanda).

Once initiated, violence generates an evolution in perpetrators; the personality of individuals, social norms, institutions, and culture all change in a way that makes greater violence easier and more likely (Staub, 1999, p. 182; Waller, 2002, p. 134). The usual moral principles that prohibit violence and protect people are replaced by “higher” values protecting purity, goodness, and well-being of the in-group and creating a better society by destroying the victims. A utopian vision is offered that excludes some people and justifies the exclusion in the service of the vision. A progressive restructuring of group norms occurs in line with this ideological shift. Behavior towards the victims that would previously have been considered inconceivable now becomes acceptable and “normal.” Eventually, killing the victims becomes the “right” thing to do. This process can be slow (in Turkey, Armenians had been persecuted for a long time before the genocide) or fast (in Rwanda, Hutu and Tutsi were interconnected only a few months before the carnage, although a long history of tribal animosity existed). As the evolution progresses, the number of perpetrators spreads and the selected target group increases the range of its membership acceptable for purging. In the end, there is what Staub (1999) calls a “reversal of morality” (again, see Davenport & Stam's, 2004, description).

Hence, in some cases realistic historical conflict provides the germ for the out-group threat (Armenia, Rwanda, and Bosnia), in others (like Cambodia) it is completely manufactured on ideological grounds. It is possible that when clearly defined out-groups do not exist, they have to be invented. Out-groups serve as a kind of lightening rod for the collective frustration rage that builds at a societal level fuelled by need frustration and directed by rhetoric.

10.1. Inculcation of fear
Xenophobia is especially potent when a threat is identified. Sherif et al., 1961 M. Sherif, O.J. Harvey, B.J. White, W.R. Hood and C.W. Sherif, Intergroup cooperation and competition: The robbers cave experiment, University Books exchange, Norman, OK (1961).Sherif, Harvey, White, Hood, and Sherif (1961) and Tajfel and Turner (1986) have illustrated how easy it is to produce the differentiation, denigration, discrimination, and hostility necessary as a first step. Simmel (1950), Boyanowsky and Allen (1973), and Pepitone and Kleiner (1957) have shown how in-group self-identity, in combination with threat of censure and in-group conformity processes, reinforces and maintains the distinction. To remain members of the in-group, individuals move away physically and attitudinally from the identified out-group. Perceived threat (real or concocted) inspires the requisite social polarization, initial avoidance, and eventual hostility. This of course was the central motive of Orwell's (1948) classic's “1984” where an illusory enemy was fought in battles shown on television in all public spaces on a 24-hour basis.

These observations question whether racial/ethnic conflict is either necessary or sufficient for pogroms or genocide. Historically, the answer seems to be that it increases the likelihood but is neither sufficient nor necessary (e.g., Cambodia). Why then do groups sometimes define others as intolerably different and seek to end the intolerable situation by eradication of the out-group? For whatever reasons, the process is furthered by defining the out-group so that the entire out-group is perceived as threatening. Sometimes, this occurs through generalizing the actions of a few out-group members to the entire group. A group of Armenians had sided with the Russians against the Turks; a group of Tutsis had formed a revolutionary party; Jews in pre-WW2 Germany were seen as part of an exclusive Zionist conspiracy that controlled an inordinate amount of financial resources and as incompatible with a national goal of “racial purity” set by the Nazis; a small group of the Kurds in Iraq had sided with Iran against Iraq. As the perception of threat spreads to encompass the entire group, all members even children are viewed now as probable future enemies and hence as threatening. In the Nanking massacre, the “threat” was initially the sheer number of those captured, which seems to have triggered the mass slaughter (Chang, 1997, p. 41).

It appears that a common perception of genocidaires is that their target group is virus- or cancer-like. The notion of the threat spreading is common to these views, justifying extermination of the currently innocent. At the Human Rights Tribunal for abuses in Rwanda, one Hutu woman justified her killing Tutsi children by portraying it as a humanitarian act, saying that she was sparing them the impossibility of living without parents.
 
Taking the UN definition of genocide, it is happening and has been since 1947. I've said that many times here. Recent events in Gaza don't change that.

Taking the context of this thread, a genocide similar to that visited on the Jews by Nazi Germany is clearly not happening, nor is it planned. However, the conditions for such a catastrophic event taking place clearly are developing.

i agree with the last bit.

however, the problem with the UN definition of genocide is, imo, that it is too inclusive. for instance, i saw something saying that the 9/11 attacks were genocide because they were aimed at destroying american lives.

i think that the word should be used only in extreme cases so that it doesn't lose its meaning and to be honest i'm not sure that what has happened since 1948 fits that description, horrible as it is
 
Have the intellectual and political courage to say that you think a genocide is happening right now, not weasel phrases like "conditions for genocide" might be being put in place.
Oh, the irony. You need to take a bucketload of that and argue against what she's actually saying, you gutless fool
 
i agree with the last bit.

however, the problem with the UN definition of genocide is, imo, that it is too inclusive. for instance, i saw something saying that the 9/11 attacks were genocide because they were aimed at destroying american lives.

i think that the word should be used only in extreme cases so that it doesn't lose its meaning and to be honest i'm not sure that what has happened since 1948 fits that description, horrible as it is
I can't see anything in the convention that could possibly include 9/11. Which nutters dreamt that up? :eek:
 
and all the debate about this and particulalry the comparisons to nazi germany, and the accusation gaza is a ghetto ( true), i am kinda shocked that no one has noted that really israel is just another jewish ghetto, and the last in a long line ..
Israel is in no way a "ghetto", not even in the wildest imaginings of a demented fruitloop.
It's a nation-state that allows it's citizens free access and egress, mobility of self and whatever you hold, and allows a large percentage of it's Jewish citizens to maintain dual nationalities.
but one in which the jews have, THIS time, said they will NOT die in ..
Emotive wank.
please try to understand their mentality .. it would help .. afaics 'israel' will fight this time to the death UNLESS they see security and the death of anti semitism
I suspect that you understand less about the mentality of Jews than you believe you do.
 
Israel is in no way a "ghetto", not even in the wildest imaginings of a demented fruitloop.
It's a nation-state that allows it's citizens free access and egress, mobility of self and whatever you hold, and allows a large percentage of it's Jewish citizens to maintain dual nationalities.

Emotive wank.

I suspect that you understand less about the mentality of Jews than you believe you do.

israel is not a ghetto? no techinically no .. but as a place where jes went ( fled and weer driven ) for security it has similarities

emotive wank? really? after the holocaust there is a reall fear still to this day .. to me this is emotive .. to most jews israel IS emotive .. i regularly speak with one holocaust survivor .. it is still very real

maybe? .. hard to say .. but reading the uk jewish papers papers regularly and seeing the deep emotional support for israel i suspect not
 
Except that I've very seldom seen people noting it in terms of a crisis of existence in the way durutti has.
every time an israeli or zionist speaks you see it .. maybe you just do not want to hear it .. yes we can agree a million times on the historic mistake of zionism .. but it for the jews is no more a mistake than very other nationalism that destroyed one or more other cultures in its wake
 
Verdeja said:
Genocide was the scourge of the twentieth century, a modern-day plague of human agents causing death and suffering in the name of a higher,utopic ideology. This article proposes a theoretical account of genocide which identifies five causal factors: a profoundly segmented society with distinct political cleavages; rapid and profound social change; an exclusivist political ideology that gives prominence to these political cleavages; state capacity to organize and carry out, or at the very least emphatically encourage, mass murder; and an international component which affects the scope and length of the genocidal process. The article shows the importance of these factors through a discussion of three case studies: Armenia (1915), Cambodia (1975-79) and Rwanda (1994).
.
 
and all the debate about this and particulalry the comparisons to nazi germany, and the accusation gaza is a ghetto ( true), i am kinda shocked that no one has noted that really israel is just another jewish ghetto
Funniest kind of ghetto I ever saw - one that is armed to the teeth and imprisons large numbers of people and strikes at will at them and its neighbours.
 
Israel is in no way a "ghetto", not even in the wildest imaginings of a demented fruitloop.
It's a nation-state that allows it's citizens free access and egress, mobility of self and whatever you hold, and allows a large percentage of it's Jewish citizens to maintain dual nationalities.

Emotive wank.

I suspect that you understand less about the mentality of Jews than you believe you do.
palestine, as any kind of nation state, is effectively a ghetto now, esp in terms of gaza. there are trade barriers, overt aggression, concrete walls and cast-iron attitudes. it puzzles me tbh.
 
Yitzhak Laor lives in Tel Aviv. He is the editor of Mita’am.
Israel is engaged in a long war of annihilation against Palestinian society. The objective is to destroy the Palestinian nation and drive it back into pre-modern groupings based on the tribe, the clan and the enclave. This is the last phase of the Zionist colonial mission, culminating in inaccessible townships, camps, villages, districts, all of them to be walled or fenced off, and patrolled by a powerful army which, in the absence of a proper military objective, is really an over-equipped police force, with F16s, Apaches, tanks, artillery, commando units and hi-tech surveillance at its disposal.

The extent of the cruelty, the lack of shame and the refusal of self-restraint are striking, both in anthropological terms and historically. The worldwide Jewish support for this vandal offensive makes one wonder if this isn’t the moment Zionism is taking over the Jewish people.

But the real issue is that since 1991, and even more since the Oslo agreements in 1993, Israel has played on the idea that it really is trading land for peace, while the truth is very different. Israel has not given up the territories, but cantonised and blockaded them. The new strategy is to confine the Palestinians: they do not belong in our space, they are to remain out of sight, packed into their townships and camps, or swelling our prisons. This project now has the support of most of the Israeli press and academics.

We are the masters. We work and travel. They can make their living by policing their own people. We drive on the highways. They must live across the hills. The hills are ours. So are the fences. We control the roads, and the checkpoints and the borders. We control their electricity, their water, their milk, their oil, their wheat and their gasoline. If they protest peacefully we fire tear gas at them. If they throw stones, we fire bullets. If they launch a rocket, we destroy a house and its inhabitants. If they launch a missile, we destroy families, neighbourhoods, streets, towns.

Israel doesn’t want a Palestinian state alongside it. It is willing to prove this with hundreds of dead and thousands of disabled, in a single ‘operation’. The message is always the same: leave or remain in subjugation, under our military dictatorship. We are a democracy. We have decided democratically that you will live like dogs.

On 27 December just before the bombs started falling on Gaza, the Zionist parties, from Meretz to Yisrael Beiteinu, were unanimously in favour of the attack. As usual – it’s the ritual again – differences emerged only over the dispatch of blankets and medication to Gaza. Our most fervent pro-war columnist, Ari Shavit, has suggested that Israel should go on with the assault and build a hospital for the victims. The enemy is wounded, bleeding, dying, desperate for help. Nobody is coming unless Obama moves – yes, we are all waiting for Godot. Maybe this time he shows up.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/web/15/01/2009/mult04_.html#yitzhaklaor
 
What's he saying - nothing about genocide, beyond the emotive first line. He makes clear that he envisages war of annihilation against a developed modernised society - a set of social relations, not the people.
The objective is to destroy the Palestinian *nation* and drive it back into pre-modern groupings based on the tribe, the clan and the enclave.

TG, you know to read better than that. ( My ** above btw)
 
i agree, what he is describing there is not genocide.

several analysts have also expressed the view that what's going on here is an attempt to destroy the palestinian people as a political force so that it becomes a de-politicised "humanitarian crisis" and ultimately something that can be completely ignored. in much the same way that indigenous people in much of the world can mostly be ignored.

however, destroying palestinian society and the idea of the "palestinian people" as a political force is a few steps away from actual genocide, will inevitably involve the killing of large numbers of people and the "de-development" of the economy and essential structures for living, and in any society where genocide has taken place we see attempts to do this prior to the genocidal plan itself, and of course the destruction of the society makes it easier to destroy the people themselves because of dehumanisation - sewage in the streets, the people looking "filthy" etc

its a very short slope.

and it needs to be opposed before it gets to that stage,
 
that strategy isn't working though as the israeli arab population continues to grow and is many time what it was in 1949

fits right in the "de-development" of the palestinian economy since 1948 and also the whole concept of "they are breeding like rabbits" the so-called demographic threat and the artifically created conditions of poverty and exclusion from the workplace imposed on the palestinians since that time - it also adds to the dehumanisation rhetoric employed against the palestinians, and allows the economic destruction and falling standards of living from what was a relatively equal, prosperous society pre-1948 to be concealed, because of course if the population is increasing, and increasing more than the population of israeli jews then nothing is wrong, is it?
 
There's no such slope. Demanding that people agree that genocide is just around the corner no matter what guise this idicocy is presented to us changes nothing but the words. What is taking place is exactly what is described in the piece above. That's it.

If the state led destruction of groups it opposes becomes the defintion of genocide then i give up - i'm a genocidal manicac.

Reclaim this term. Don't let it be used like this.
 
Funniest kind of ghetto I ever saw - one that is armed to the teeth and imprisons large numbers of people and strikes at will at them and its neighbours.

What some people have failed to appreciate is that the "ghetto" stencil all over the Palestinian side of the apartheid wall is sarcasm.
 
There's no such slope. Demanding that people agree that genocide is just around the corner no matter what guise this idicocy is presented to us changes nothing but the words. What is taking place is exactly what is described in the piece above. That's it.

If the state led destruction of groups it opposes becomes the defintion of genocide then i give up - i'm a genocidal manicac.

Reclaim this term. Don't let it be used like this.

that's a fair point. i'd do a longer post but i need a bit of time to think about it ...
 
Genocide is a word far too easily banded about. Some 100,000 people died in the fire-bombing of Dresden. Was that an attempted genocide?
 
agree there, but i haven't said anything suggesting that israel are actually committing genocide right now, have i?

have a look at some of the links I posted - i will post some more tomorrow ...
 
And another daft inference to be drawn from this Israel/ Nazi Germany analogy is that even after killing millions of people the state of Germany was allowed to keep going in the American capitalist model and became far more successful as a result. It wasn't dispersed and given over to the Slavs.
 
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