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Germany 1940 - Israel 2009. shocking pictures

I'm talking plans rodney, plans. A few million people with no ownership of MOP and those that do exist run by a few bourgeois - a classic dispossed proletariat - what do you do? Kill them all and put the very existence of your own state at risk or make use of them? Where's this going? (bearing in mind who and what my reply to this was orioginally about - i.e planned genocide is on the way)
Umm, who said anything about planned genocide, as opposed to the conditions for genocide to take place being rapidly met?

The 'plan', such as it is, is to get hold of as much land for the "Jewish State" as possible with as few non-Jews in it as possible, and to reduce the Palestinians to a "defeated people". Opinions very wildly as to where and how these defeated people should eventually be allowed to live. Serfdom is definitely one of the popular options, but so is mass transfer (aka genocide).

There are parallels with all sorts of conflicts elsewhere, but none are perfect. Jewish Israelis are not a tiny minority, unlike whites in Apartheid South Africa. They're not a huge majority, unlike Aryans in Nazi Germany. Northern Ireland would fit your argument better, but I'd argue that Israel has gone beyond that now; they turned the Palestinians into serfs long ago but, from the early 1990s, have been replacing them with other labour precisely because they don't want to be dependent on a functioning, economically active Palestine.
 
jiggajagga did, quite explicty, in the post i originally replied to:
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=8649415&postcount=34
It's a piss poor post, but it's as easily read as noting that the conditions for genocide have been met as saying that pre-planned genocide has long been the policy.

Regardless, the claims in your post don't depend on what someone else claimed. It's hard to deny that the conditions for genocide to occur are rapidly being met. A majority of Israelis favour mass transfer (which is part of the definition of genocide) and several parties in the Knesset which have mass transfer as part of their platform; the bloodshed in Gaza was cheered on and protesters attacked, including by firemen acting worryingly like brown-shirts. The graffiti left by soldiers in Gaza, the herding of people into a building before shelling it... These are not good signs.

A grass-roots organization that has set up survey stations across the country says it is finding a large majority of Israelis favor transferring the Palestinian population out of Israel instead of implementing Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's plan to evacuate Jewish settlements from Gaza and parts of the West Bank this summer.

Mishalot Yisrael a group formed to assess public opinion with regard to the Gaza withdrawal, has been sending teenage volunteers throughout the country to man survey stations in public areas. The teens stop pedestrians of all kinds who pass by their ballot booths, usually situated outside bus stations and shopping malls in Jerusalem, Tel Aviv and other cities.

Participants are given a ballot card asking whether they "prefer the 'Sharon/Peres Disengagement Plan,' which includes transferring Gaza and parts of the West Bank to Palestinian control and expulsion of all Jews who live there. Or do you prefer the 'Jewish Alternative Disengagement Plan,' which includes annexing these territories and expulsion of the Arabs living there to an area outside Israel, deep beyond a safe security buffer zone?"

What Mishalot is finding, it says, is staggering: Upwards of 90 percent of respondents are checking the box in favor of the mass transfer of Palestinians.

"This number is remarkable," said Mishalot Director Yekutiel Ben Yaacov. "We aren't taking these polls in the heart of so-called nationalist communities in [the West Bank.] Our polling stations are in the busiest sections of major cities, like Jerusalem. We get all kinds of people, religious, secular, old, young, Israeli-born, immigrants ... you name it."

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=44752
 
Ther's nothing to respond to other than you demanding that another poster actually meant something else more in line with what you thought. It's that and usual C&P. There's literally nothing there.
 
I'd just like to finally add that as next Tuesday is Holocaust Rememberance Day say a prayer for the innocents murdered in cold blood by the Israelies in Gaza along with the mass suffering of others in the past, present and future! :(
 
Man, it's not even that. It's a planned operation with limted ends (however horrible that is), like all states undertake if they feel their intrests would be served by doing so. Genocide is not one of them. Genocide would get Israel destroyed. Israel getting destroyed in not the plan.

spot on BA .. just look at the population growth of israeli arabs or the population of west bank arabs .. the idea that genoicde is ANYWHERE on the map is daft .. the israelis following the logic of zionism MAY decide to ethnically cleanse israel of arabs ( depends on what happens imho) .. but NOT cos they have an overiding ethno theory like the nazis .. simply from a nationalist logic .. utterly differrent
 
Great post. That idea of "palingenetic rebirth" was also a standard trope of much 20th century left-wing politics - esp the offical reps of the tradition. (And no, before anyone gets the wrong idea, i'm not saying that fascists are left wing or anything like that, just that modernism did cause reactions that were common across left and right in the first half of the last century).

Yep

As for the genocide thing, like I said I don't think Irael is about to commit genocide.

that is different to saying that the social conditions to enable such a thing have not been met or will not be met in the very near future. having the conditions doesn't mean that it's going to happen

But as other posters pointed out, there has always been an impetus within zionism and israeli politics to rather than keep the palestinians as low waged workers (a role that is filled by people from the soviet union, guest workers from other countries, misrahi jews, and the like), exclude them from the economy and all aspscts of life, so they become "invisible", the reason for this was the idea that if they were ignored they would eventually disappear.

This idea is present in early zionist writings right up until the present day.

there are 20 different laws excluding palestinians from participation in economic life in Israel.

in the early days of zionism right up until today, this was a deliberate policy, to exclude rather than include them in the economy, even as poorly-paid wage slaves.

as others have pointed out, what purpose do the palestinians in gaza serve - and i'm talking about gaza, rather than Israel proper at the moment or the west bank.

simply put - what is the point of these people?

palestinians from gaza are unable to participate in the israeli economy - however poorly, as the borders are closed. there was one case of a palestinian doctor who cried because his kids had been killed on Israeli tv, and a woman got up and shouted at him for his "propaganda". in a comparable situation in the UK I don't think even a BNP member or fascist would be able to say that to someones face who had lost their family, let alone in a news conference with hundreds of people - because of the shitstorm that would ensue, the person being described as "uncaring" and the BNP leadership being worried about the (admittedly short-term) damage that that person's words would cause to the party.

the fact that this sort of discourse is acceptable in public, and the fact that the concept of "transfer" is promoted by writers in ALL media outlets - transfer being a euphemism for ethnic cleansing - the fact that Tzipi Livni has explicitly called for palestinians within Israel to leave Israel once the Palestinian state is established - again even the BNP are not that fucking stupid, but she isn't the BNP - she is the foreign minister of Israel.

And I don't think that the stuff they are coming out with is propaganda to please the voters, either. Even if it is, what does it say about the state of Israeli society that this sort of thing can be seen as propaganda for the voters?

and i'm not saying that genocide is about to take place or even that it will - but the conditions are being met for it.

Even the way the people of gaza appear on television, they are cooped up on what is basically a pen, the impression has been created that they are basically animals, beccause they live like animals, they are less than human, they are not people



i would like to think that killing all of the palestinians of gaza would lead to the "end of israel", but i think that's somewhat unrealistic tbh - israel has been pursuing these policies, the siege, the deliberate targetting of civilian infrastructure in "operation cast lead" with a few words of condemnation but how much is substantial, I mean really? is it that unrealistic to think that they may expect they can now get away with anything?

if israel launched an operation to kill all the palestinians in gaza tomorrow, or next week, or in five to ten years' time, who would stop them?

the UN? LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!

if israel is not a signatory to international treaties governing its behaviour how much can it think it can get away with? im not talking about what they actually will get away with, but how much do they think they will?
 
actually tell you what butchers all this shows up the failure of the leftists on here to understand nationalism properly .. cos they follow the old leftist support for nationalism I/P gives them real problems ..
 
ffs they are not nazis

there are definite parallels between the ruling ideaology of the state of israel and nazism, but behaving like nazis doesn't mean that they are about to kill twelve million people or that they ARE nazis

there are definite grounds for considering israel a fascist state and i would argue that it is a relatively accurate description (although israeli "fascism" differs from other forms of fascism in significant ways, especially the absence of the obsesive cult of a "great leader"), but anyone who says that zionism is nazism, or that "israel is nazi" is an idiot

the nazis were obsessively focused on purely biological ideas of race, influenced by social darwinism preached by gobineau and chamberlain. "culture" didn't enter into it as it does in many forms of modern neo-fascism - the "nazi" label doesn't apply to them as they are easily able to disprove it by wheeling out non-white members, etc, saying it's all about culture, not race. it was all about race defined by very, very strict criteria (no jewish blood dating back to the seventeenth century or before).

the zionists, while israel has certainly got racial and ethnic discrimination built into their state structure, are less so - as shown by the fact that they have accepted ethiopian jews into the state, among others, and the fact that they define, or claim to define "jews" as a nation, despite discriminating in practice between different groups of jews and despite the fact that entry to this "nation" isn't granted very easily, a convert can still be granted the right to return to israel if the government is satisfied, whereas say, a non-German in Nazi Germany would never get the right to be treated the same way as a German


what is happening in palestine right now is bad, but it is NOT the holocaust

and as i've said before, any comparison of fascism to zionism needs to remember that - not all zionism is the same, and not all fascism is the same, and focus on the concept of national exclusivity, what griffin calls "palingenetic rebirth" - the idea of making a "new kind of man" who loves strength, the land, the people, etc... (there's certainly a lot of that type of rhetoric in various strands of zionism), militarism, expansionism, state-worship and the extreme intolerance of anyone percieved as fifth columns or the "enemy", the various types of dehumanising rhetoric employed against the palestinians - "drugged cockroaches in a bottle" etc, and the fact that this is normal in the political discourse.

showing pictures side by side of dead corpses, soldiers marching, fences, etc, is not useful to anyone, because those images can be found in virtually any conflict you care to name ...
good post fw ..
 
^^^This.

It's as foolish to dismiss these sinister developments in Israeli attitudes and methods as it is to claim they're as bad as those of Nazi Germany.
but german post WW1 anti semtism arose in a society that yes was humiliated by defeat in ww1 BUT not in a war situation .. there was NO group of countries dedicated to attacking and maybe overrunning israel ( indeed most states/politicians/bosses were sympathetic ) there was NO state of continual warfare where 1000 citizens have been killed in rocket and suicide and other attacks in the last 10 years

.. the attitudes you link to are nasty and worrying but are typical of scared people as much of a triumphalist people
 
It's a piss poor post, but it's as easily read as noting that the conditions for genocide have been met as saying that pre-planned genocide has long been the policy.

Regardless, the claims in your post don't depend on what someone else claimed. It's hard to deny that the conditions for genocide to occur are rapidly being met. A majority of Israelis favour mass transfer (which is part of the definition of genocide) and several parties in the Knesset which have mass transfer as part of their platform; the bloodshed in Gaza was cheered on and protesters attacked, including by firemen acting worryingly like brown-shirts. The graffiti left by soldiers in Gaza, the herding of people into a building before shelling it... These are not good signs.

this ^
 
but german post WW1 anti semtism arose in a society that yes was humiliated by defeat in ww1 BUT not in a war situation .. there was NO group of countries dedicated to attacking and maybe overrunning israel ( indeed most states/politicians/bosses were sympathetic ) there was NO state of continual warfare where 1000 citizens have been killed in rocket and suicide and other attacks in the last 10 years

.. the attitudes you link to are nasty and worrying but are typical of scared people as much of a triumphalist people

Which "group of countries" are dedicated to attacking and maybe overrunning Israel?

Egypt?

Jordan?

I think you are also forgetting that in the years following World War I saw the occupation of the Rhineland by France, the treaty of Versailles, as well as huge numbers of people killed in terrorist attacks by the left and right

Arguing that there was nothing threatening Germany's existence and that Israel is different because it's threatened with destruction is also stupid, sorry to say but it is
 
and all the debate about this and particulalry the comparisons to nazi germany, and the accusation gaza is a ghetto ( true), i am kinda shocked that no one has noted that really israel is just another jewish ghetto, and the last in a long line ..

but one in which the jews have, THIS time, said they will NOT die in ..

please try to understand their mentality .. it would help .. afaics 'israel' will fight this time to the death UNLESS they see security and the death of anti semitism
 
and all the debate about this and particulalry the comparisons to nazi germany, and the accusation gaza is a ghetto ( true), i am kinda shocked that no one has noted that really israel is just another jewish ghetto, and the last in a long line ..

but one in which the jews have, THIS time, said they will NOT die in ..

please try to understand their mentality .. it would help .. afaics 'israel' will fight this time to the death UNLESS they see security and the death of anti semitism

actually quite a lot of people have noted this ...
 
What are the "conditions for genocide to occur" - bearing in mind that you need intent for it not be inflated waffle. Or is it a genocidal pogrom on the part of the ciizenry.
 
Which "group of countries" are dedicated to attacking and maybe overrunning Israel?

Egypt?

Jordan?

I think you are also forgetting that in the years following World War I saw the occupation of the Rhineland by France, the treaty of Versailles, as well as huge numbers of people killed in terrorist attacks by the left and right

Arguing that there was nothing threatening Germany's existence and that Israel is different because it's threatened with destruction is also stupid, sorry to say but it is

fw .. the arab armies in 1948, the egypt in 67 and 73 .. jordan relucantly and syria occasionally .. maybe atmit there is no direct threat but if you were an israeli how would you look at the world? securely? all cos your 'people' were exterminated in europe and expelled from africa/arabia?

and re your last para .. why is this stupid .. that is very much an important point .. nazi anti semitism had NO external threat .. anti arab racism can clearly point to one

btw how many germans were killed by jews in the 20ts and 30ts?
 
Umm, who said anything about planned genocide, as opposed to the conditions for genocide to take place being rapidly met?

The 'plan', such as it is, is to get hold of as much land for the "Jewish State" as possible with as few non-Jews in it as possible, and to reduce the Palestinians to a "defeated people". Opinions very wildly as to where and how these defeated people should eventually be allowed to live. Serfdom is definitely one of the popular options, but so is mass transfer (aka genocide).

There are parallels with all sorts of conflicts elsewhere, but none are perfect. Jewish Israelis are not a tiny minority, unlike whites in Apartheid South Africa. They're not a huge majority, unlike Aryans in Nazi Germany. Northern Ireland would fit your argument better, but I'd argue that Israel has gone beyond that now; they turned the Palestinians into serfs long ago but, from the early 1990s, have been replacing them with other labour precisely because they don't want to be dependent on a functioning, economically active Palestine.
that strategy isn't working though as the israeli arab population continues to grow and is many time what it was in 1949
 
What are the "conditions for genocide to occur" - bearing in mind that you need intent for it not be inflated waffle. Or is it a genocidal pogrom on the part of the ciizenry.

http://www.genocidewatch.org/8stages2006.htm

1. CLASSIFICATION: All cultures have categories to distinguish people into “us and them” by ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality: German and Jew, Hutu and Tutsi. Bipolar societies that lack mixed categories, such as Rwanda and Burundi, are the most likely to have genocide. The main preventive measure at this early stage is to develop universalistic institutions that transcend ethnic or racial divisions, that actively promote tolerance and understanding, and that promote classifications that transcend the divisions. The Catholic church could have played this role in Rwanda, had it not been riven by the same ethnic cleavages as Rwandan society. Promotion of a common language in countries like Tanzania has also promoted transcendent national identity. This search for common ground is vital to early prevention of genocide.



2. SYMBOLIZATION: We give names or other symbols to the classifications. We name people “Jews” or “Gypsies”, or distinguish them by colors or dress; and apply the symbols to members of groups. Classification and symbolization are universally human and do not necessarily result in genocide unless they lead to the next stage, dehumanization. When combined with hatred, symbols may be forced upon unwilling members of pariah groups: the yellow star for Jews under Nazi rule, the blue scarf for people from the Eastern Zone in Khmer Rouge Cambodia. To combat symbolization, hate symbols can be legally forbidden (swastikas) as can hate speech. Group marking like gang clothing or tribal scarring can be outlawed, as well. The problem is that legal limitations will fail if unsupported by popular cultural enforcement. Though Hutu and Tutsi were forbidden words in Burundi until the 1980’s, code-words replaced them. If widely supported, however, denial of symbolization can be powerful, as it was in Bulgaria, where the government refused to supply enough yellow badges and at least eighty percent of Jews did not wear them, depriving the yellow star of its significance as a Nazi symbol for Jews.



3. DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group. In combating this dehumanization, incitement to genocide should not be confused with protected speech. Genocidal societies lack constitutional protection for countervailing speech, and should be treated differently than democracies. Local and international leaders should condemn the use of hate speech and make it culturally unacceptable. Leaders who incite genocide should be banned from international travel and have their foreign finances frozen. Hate radio stations should be shut down, and hate propaganda banned. Hate crimes and atrocities should be promptly punished.



4. ORGANIZATION: Genocide is always organized, usually by the state, often using militias to provide deniability of state responsibility (the Janjaweed in Darfur.) Sometimes organization is informal (Hindu mobs led by local RSS militants) or decentralized (terrorist groups.) Special army units or militias are often trained and armed. Plans are made for genocidal killings. To combat this stage, membership in these militias should be outlawed. Their leaders should be denied visas for foreign travel. The U.N. should impose arms embargoes on governments and citizens of countries involved in genocidal massacres, and create commissions to investigate violations, as was done in post-genocide Rwanda.



5. POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Laws may forbid intermarriage or social interaction. Extremist terrorism targets moderates, intimidating and silencing the center. Moderates from the perpetrators’ own group are most able to stop genocide, so are the first to be arrested and killed. Prevention may mean security protection for moderate leaders or assistance to human rights groups. Assets of extremists may be seized, and visas for international travel denied to them. Coups d’état by extremists should be opposed by international sanctions.



6. PREPARATION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Death lists are drawn up. Members of victim groups are forced to wear identifying symbols. Their property is expropriated. They are often segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. At this stage, a Genocide Emergency must be declared. If the political will of the great powers, regional alliances, or the U.N. Security Council can be mobilized, armed international intervention should be prepared, or heavy assistance provided to the victim group to prepare for its self-defense. Otherwise, at least humanitarian assistance should be organized by the U.N. and private relief groups for the inevitable tide of refugees to come.



7. EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing. Sometimes the genocide results in revenge killings by groups against each other, creating the downward whirlpool-like cycle of bilateral genocide (as in Burundi). At this stage, only rapid and overwhelming armed intervention can stop genocide. Real safe areas or refugee escape corridors should be established with heavily armed international protection. (An unsafe “safe” area is worse than none at all.) The U.N. Standing High Readiness Brigade, EU Rapid Response Force, or regional forces -- should be authorized to act by the U.N. Security Council if the genocide is small. For larger interventions, a multilateral force authorized by the U.N. should intervene. If the U.N. is paralyzed, regional alliances must act. It is time to recognize that the international responsibility to protect transcends the narrow interests of individual nation states. If strong nations will not provide troops to intervene directly, they should provide the airlift, equipment, and financial means necessary for regional states to intervene.



8. DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile. There they remain with impunity, like Pol Pot or Idi Amin, unless they are captured and a tribunal is established to try them. The response to denial is punishment by an international tribunal or national courts. There the evidence can be heard, and the perpetrators punished. Tribunals like the Yugoslav or Rwanda Tribunals, or an international tribunal to try the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, or an International Criminal Court may not deter the worst genocidal killers. But with the political will to arrest and prosecute them, some may be brought to justice.
 
that strategy isn't working though as the israeli arab population continues to grow and is many time what it was in 1949
I said nothing about the size of the Arab population, only the theft of their land and their expulsion from it.
 
I said nothing about the size of the Arab population, only the theft of their land and their expulsion from it.
does not the increase in arab population, the increase in towns and villages, the ingress into positions of power suggest that things are not this simple? i accept they are NOT good btw

( btw usefull link )
 
does not the increase in arab population, the increase in towns and villages, the ingress into positions of power suggest that things are not this simple? i accept they are NOT good btw

( btw usefull link )

you have to remember that the position of the palestinians in israel is different to that in the occupied territories, and the position of the palestinians in the west bank, in israeli policy, is different to that of the gaza strip

btw, one arab minister in 70 years does not mean that the arabs are gaining "positions of power" in the israeli government

Jonathan Cook has a good piece on this:

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0331.htm#Top
 
you have to remember that the position of the palestinians in israel is different to that in the occupied territories, and the position of the palestinians in the west bank, in israeli policy, is different to that of the gaza strip

btw, one arab minister in 70 years does not mean that the arabs are gaining "positions of power" in the israeli government

Jonathan Cook has a good piece on this:

http://www.jkcook.net/Articles2/0331.htm#Top
please note i said the situation is NOT good .. my point was that arab population continus to grow as do arab viallges and towns .. and yes one minister is pathetic .. but it is NOW not then .. while there ARE some alarmnimg trajectories others are more contradictory is all i am saying
 
That's a description of a genocide. You''ve distanced yourself from these 'condtions for a genocide' anyway haven't you?
It's a generalised description of the stages necessary for genocide to talk place. Do you think stage 7 can take place without stages 1-6? :hmm::confused:

You appear to be grasping at straws.
 
Have the intellectual and political courage to say that you think a genocide is happening right now, not weasel phrases like "conditions for genocide" might be being put in place.
 
continus to grow as do arab viallges and towns
Sorry, but where do you get this nonsense from? It's widely documented that building permits for Arabs inside Israel are a tiny fraction of those allowed to jews, with no new settlements established for decades, and in the WB entire towns are being strangeld by the wall, cut off by settler-only roads and swamped by jewish settlements

Have you watched the Iron Wall yet? (posted in this forum). Do yourself a favour and settle down with a can and watch it
 
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