Germany 1940 - Israel 2009. shocking pictures

[ymu]

i didn't say that genocide was in the plan ... but the conditions have, now, imo been created to enable it to take place - that's not the same thing as saying that it is going to take place or that the current administration have any such plan to do so

^^^This.

It's as foolish to dismiss these sinister developments in Israeli attitudes and methods as it is to claim they're as bad as those of Nazi Germany.

Last week, at the height of Operation Cast Lead, a group of Israeli firemen threw their hats into the political ring, albeit in somewhat undiplomatic and uncivilised fashion. During a peaceful anti-war vigil outside a Tel Aviv air force base, several members of the fire brigade turned on one protester, drenching her relentlessly with water from their hoses, before approaching her and ordering her into the station in order to "give us all head".
...

"It used to be a big deal if bus drivers criticised protests and vigils in public," she recalls, "since as employees of the state, they were not allowed to express political opinions in uniform." Now, however, the firemen felt so secure of escaping punishment that they even bombarded her with firecrackers during the attack, telling her "now you know what it's like to live in Sderot".

When video evidence emerged on an Israeli news website of her ordeal, readers' comments were predictably scathing of Dolev and her fellow protestors for daring to speak out in the first place against the IDF's operation. "Of the 380 comments, all but 10 were in support of the fire brigade," said Dolev. "Some readers even called openly for our murder, urging the police to shoot us, or saying 'Why use water – use acid instead'."

...

In her view, the inexorable shift of the Israeli public towards out and out hostility and hyper-defensiveness was inevitable from as far back as 1967, when the West Bank was first conquered. "We used to hold signs at protests reading 'The occupation will corrupt'," she told me. "Now, we can see that it has [come to pass]. As a society, we have lost our ability to see clearly; we have let fear blind us. Once, calling someone a racist was the harshest accusation you could make. Later, you began to hear people say 'I know I'm a racist, but...'; nowadays [during Cast Lead], we heard 'I know I'm talking like a Nazi, but at least the Nazis knew how to deal with their enemies'."

Despite others employing Nazi comparisons to describe Israeli military actions, Dolev isn't comfortable with such terminology herself, not least because it derails the debate about the issues at hand. "It's all too easy for the Israeli authorities to say 'we didn't build an Auschwitz for the Palestinians, so everything's ok', but in reality everything is not ok." She believes that history has come full circle, and that instead of learning the lessons of the Holocaust, "we have become the racists ourselves".

"Isn't Gaza a ghetto?" she continues. "OK, we don't use the Palestinians' hair for cushions, but the [stage is being set for the] same kind of process of dehumanisation here."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/21/gaza-protest

 

[Idris2002]

I prefer the colonialism comparison; a better comparison for Gaza than the Warsaw ghetto would be the Brits' massacre of Shona civilians following the suppression of the Shona rebellion in what is now Zimbabwe in 1895.

And that's bad enough.

 

[butchersapron]

ffs they are not nazis

there are definite parallels between the ruling ideaology of the state of israel and nazism, but behaving like nazis doesn't mean that they are about to kill twelve million people or that they ARE nazis

there are definite grounds for considering israel a fascist state and i would argue that it is a relatively accurate description (although israeli "fascism" differs from other forms of fascism in significant ways, especially the absence of the obsesive cult of a "great leader"), but anyone who says that zionism is nazism, or that "israel is nazi" is an idiot

the nazis were obsessively focused on purely biological ideas of race, influenced by social darwinism preached by gobineau and chamberlain. "culture" didn't enter into it as it does in many forms of modern neo-fascism - the "nazi" label doesn't apply to them as they are easily able to disprove it by wheeling out non-white members, etc, saying it's all about culture, not race. it was all about race defined by very, very strict criteria (no jewish blood dating back to the seventeenth century or before).

the zionists, while israel has certainly got racial and ethnic discrimination built into their state structure, are less so - as shown by the fact that they have accepted ethiopian jews into the state, among others, and the fact that they define, or claim to define "jews" as a nation, despite discriminating in practice between different groups of jews and despite the fact that entry to this "nation" isn't granted very easily, a convert can still be granted the right to return to israel if the government is satisfied, whereas say, a non-German in Nazi Germany would never get the right to be treated the same way as a German


what is happening in palestine right now is bad, but it is NOT the holocaust

and as i've said before, any comparison of fascism to zionism needs to remember that - not all zionism is the same, and not all fascism is the same, and focus on the concept of national exclusivity, what griffin calls "palingenetic rebirth" - the idea of making a "new kind of man" who loves strength, the land, the people, etc... (there's certainly a lot of that type of rhetoric in various strands of zionism), militarism, expansionism, state-worship and the extreme intolerance of anyone percieved as fifth columns or the "enemy", the various types of dehumanising rhetoric employed against the palestinians - "drugged cockroaches in a bottle" etc, and the fact that this is normal in the political discourse.

showing pictures side by side of dead corpses, soldiers marching, fences, etc, is not useful to anyone, because those images can be found in virtually any conflict you care to name ...

Great post. That idea of "palingenetic rebirth" was also a standard trope of much 20th century left-wing politics - esp the offical reps of the tradition. (And no, before anyone gets the wrong idea, i'm not saying that fascists are left wing or anything like that, just that modernism did cause reactions that were common across left and right in the first half of the last century).

 

[jiggajagga]

"but behaving like nazis doesn't mean that they are about to kill twelve million people or that they ARE nazis"


Does anyone honestly believe that the Isaelis would exterminate the problem of Palestine once and for all if they could get away with it?

They would, imho, jump at the chance.
If any people should know about how not to treat other peoples it is the Jews!

 

[butchersapron]

Then you have no idea of the class relartions at work in the region - Israel is today a central pole of accumulation, the palestinians are a captive market and labour force. This is part of the plan. They need to be alive for this to heppen.

 

[ymu]

If any people should know about how not to treat other peoples it is the Jews!

It's not as simple as that.

The influence of the Holocaust on the character of the survivors, their children and children's children, is a complex phenomenon. Once, a high-school principal gave me the compositions written by his pupils, boys and girls, after a visit to Auschwitz. The reactions divided into two groups.

Most of the pupils wrote something like: "After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the defense of Israel and the Jewish people is the highest commandment, and for this end, everything is permitted."
A minority of the pupils wrote something like: "After seeing what the Nazis did to the Jews, my conclusion is that the Jewish State must be more humane than any other and set an example of how to behave towards minorities, so that this can never happen again."

http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-avnery010604.htm

 

[Idris2002]

"but behaving like nazis doesn't mean that they are about to kill twelve million people or that they ARE nazis"


Does anyone honestly believe that the Isaelis would exterminate the problem of Palestine once and for all if they could get away with it?

They would, imho, jump at the chance.
If any people should know about how not to treat other peoples it is the Jews!

Would they? Maybe some of them would. But all of them?

Reasoning via historical analogies is only helpful up to a certain point, and beyond that point it becomes actively misleading and harmful.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Oh not this again - I binned the last "OMG ISREAL = NAZIS!!!!!" thread given that it was the ten millionth poorly argued thread on the subject and nothing had got any better. Has anything got better in the ten million and oneth?

edit: to be fair the last one mostly got binned because there was another ISREALNAZIS thread literally about four threads down in the forum when it was posted

 

[butchersapron]

Here's a series of articles/pamphlets about the economic/class side of this issue. (Cheers to steve for the link)

 

[jiggajagga]

From Hansard 12 Jan 2009.


Sir Gerald Kaufman (Manchester, Gorton) (Lab): In congratulating my right hon. Friend on steering resolution 1860 through the United Nations Security Council, may I ask him what the international reaction would be if Hamas had slaughtered nearly 900 Israelis and subjected nearly 1.5 million Israelis to degradation and deprivation? Is it not an incontrovertible fact that Olmert, Livni and Barak are mass-murderers and war criminals— [ Interruption. ] Yes. And they bring shame on the Jewish people whose star of David they use as a flag in Gaza, but whose ethos and morals go completely against what this Israeli Government are doing.

And this gentleman is a Jew who sees evil for what it is....evil!!!

 

[Idris2002]

Yes, but his criticism is directed specifically against the government of Israel, and not the Israeli population as a whole - and he's saying there are points of comparison between current Israeli strategy and the policies of German fascism. He's not saying the two are identical.

 

[ymu]

Then you have no idea of the class relartions at work in the region - Israel is today a central pole of accumulation, the palestinians are a captive market and labour force. This is part of the plan. They need to be alive for this to heppen.

I don't think that's right. Palestinians were a serf labour force until the early 1990s, when the policy of external closure came into being (ie sealing the Palestinians into the OPT, as opposed to internal closure, which is the system of checkpoints within the OPT).

Since then, Israel has adopted a revolving door policy for immigrant labour to replace Palestinian labour, and used closures, age limits and travel permits to make it very difficult for Palestinians to work in Israel.. The intention appears to be to become independent of the need for Palestinian labour.

http://www.workersadvicecenter.org/Delegation-document-full2.htm

This was also a consideration much earlier when the European Jews who settled Palestine decided to invite the Arab Jews to join them - they wanted a cheap labour force and decided that a cheap Jewish labour force was preferable to a cheap Palestinian labour force. IIRC there are some early Zionist documents where this debate is laid out.

 

[Spion]

Then you have no idea of the class relartions at work in the region - Israel is today a central pole of accumulation, the palestinians are a captive market and labour force. This is part of the plan. They need to be alive for this to heppen.

Your information is out of date, I think. The Palestinians in Gaza do not form a workforce for Israel. And employment of West Bank Palestinians by Israelis is marginal, some working in WB settlements. A process of replacing Palestinians as workers in Israel by cutting the number of work permits issued and bringing in cheap far-eastern labour began in the 90s.

As far as I can see, the dominant trajectory of Israel's policy towards the OT Palestinians is a process of squeezing the life out of their economy with a view to eventual ('voluntary') transfer.

Might be owrht digging around some sources, eg http://www.kavlaoved.org.il/default_eng.asp

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think that's right. Palestinians were a serf labour force until the early 1990s, when the policy of external closure came into being (ie sealing the Palestinians into the OPT, as opposed to internal closure, which is the system of checkpoints within the OPT).

Since then, Israel has adopted a revolving door policy for immigrant labour to replace Palestinian labour, and used closures, age limits and travel permits to make it very difficult for Palestinians to work in Israel.. The intention appears to be to become independent of the need for Palestinian labour.

http://www.workersadvicecenter.org/Delegation-document-full2.htm

This was also a consideration much earlier when the European Jews who settled Palestine decided to invite the Arab Jews to join them - they wanted a cheap labour force and decided that a cheap Jewish labour force was preferable to a cheap Palestinian labour force. IIRC there are some early Zionist documents where this debate is laid out.

Keeping the palestinians as producers and consumers of low tech absolute surplus value (and as a reserve army of labour within Israel) whilst Israel concentrates on high end relative surplus value production is totally part of the plan, and it's a plan that relies on the existence of that relatively backward area, that relies on it's integration. It must exist and so must its consumers and workers for the plan to work, Genocide of those consumers and workers sort of fucks it up.

 

[Idris2002]

So what you're saying Butchers is that notwithstanding the points Spion and ymu make above, the existence of the Palestinians in their current condition is still functional for Israel, it's just the precise nature of that function has changed?

 

[butchersapron]

So what you're saying Butchers is that notwithstanding the points Spion and ymu make above, the existence of the Palestinians in their current condition is still functional for Israel, it's just the precise nature of that function has changed?

Yes, that saounds abourt right - but, not just for Israel, but for regional capital as well.

 

[Idris2002]

OK, what if there's a contradiction between political and economic power in Israel - the tendencies that make for inclusion of the Pals as a despised economic caste are in contradiction with those in Israeli politics that make for exclusion of the Pals in the name of 'security'? I suppose Tzipi Livni's claim that Israeli Arabs would have to move to any future Palestinian state would be both exclusion and inclusion. . .

 

[butchersapron]

OK, what if there's a contradiction between political and economic power in Israel - the tendencies that make for inclusion of the Pals as a despised economic caste are in contradiction with those in Israeli politics that make for exclusion of the Pals in the name of 'security'? I suppose Tzipi Livni's claim that Israeli Arabs would have to move to any future Palestinian state would be both exclusion and inclusion. . .

Hey, welcome to the globally integrated market.

 

[jiggajagga]

Yes, but his criticism is directed specifically against the government of Israel, and not the Israeli population as a whole - and he's saying there are points of comparison between current Israeli strategy and the policies of German fascism. He's not saying the two are identical.

I remember when german soldiers were asked after WWII if they knew what was going on. They replied " We were only following orders". You apper to be saying the same. The Israeli people know what is happening but are doing nothing to stop their government it seems?
Its called 'guilt by association'.

 

[Random]

Keeping the palestinians as producers and consumers of low tech absolute surplus value (and as a reserve army of labour within Israel) whilst Israel concentrates on high end relative surplus value production is totally part of the plan, and it's a plan that relies on the existence of that relatively backward area, that relies on it's integration. It must exist and so must its consumers and workers for the plan to work, Genocide of those consumers and workers sort of fucks it up.

The Occuppied Territories are an economic black hole and have been for some years, now, the only consumption there is supported by international aid. Are you talking about Israeli Arabs as the reserve army of labour? The days when hundreds of thousands of palestinians would cross the Green Line to work in Israel are long gone, although they were essential well into the 1990s. Israel's acces to cheap labour from countries like Philippines is a major reason why the Palestinians in Gaza are being fenced off and squeezed like this.

 

[butchersapron]

The Occuppied Territories are an economic black hole and have been for some years, now, the only consumption there is supported by international aid. Are you talking about Israeli Arabs as the reserve army of labour? The days when hundreds of thousands of palestinians would cross the Green Line to work in Israel are long gone, although they were essential well into the 1990s. Israel's acces to cheap labour from countries like Philippines is a major reason why the Palestinians in Gaza are being fenced off and squeezed like this.

I'm talking plans rodney, plans. A few million people with no ownership of MOP and those that do exist run by a few bourgeois - a classic dispossed proletariat - what do you do? Kill them all and put the very existence of your own state at risk or make use of them? Where's this going? (bearing in mind who and what my reply to this was orioginally about - i.e planned genocide is on the way)

 

[butchersapron]

Let us talk of capital.

 

[goldenecitrone]

Israelis ARE war criminal and ARE behaving like NAZIS! end of...get over yourself butcher!

I've yet to see them goose-stepping or Heil-Hitlering, though.

 

[Spion]

Let us talk of capital.

Let's find some figures for employment of Palestinians by Israeli businesses for WB and Gaza residents.

 

[Random]

what do you do? Kill them all and put the very existence of your own state at risk or make use of them? Where's this going? (bearing in mind who and what my reply to this was orioginally about - i.e planned genocide is on the way)

I do bear it in mind. I'm not arguing for the genocide theory, remember. What use are the Palestinians in the OPTs being put to?

 

[Random]

I'm talking plans rodney, plans.

That takes me back to the heady days of 2006

 

[butchersapron]

Let's find some figures for employment of Palestinians by Israeli businesses for WB and Gaza residents.

Ok, let's.

 

[butchersapron]

I do bear it in mind. I'm not arguing for the genocide theory, remember. What use are the Palestinians in the OPTs being put to?

They're good backdrop to the election.

 

[Random]

They're good backdrop to the election.

If they didn't exist it would be necessary to invent them? Yes, fair point - but a different one to the one that they are of economic use.

 

[butchersapron]

If they didn't exist it would be necessary to invent them? Yes, fair point - but a different one to the one that they are of economic use.

Just a passing point.