Georgia invading South Ossetia

[gorski]

How many lives will it cost?!?

 

[Gmart]

You posted an article which failed to explain why the Kosovan conflict was breaking down the age old system of government.

I asked you why it did this, and you just told me to go find out for myself.

You then prevaricated for ages occsionally going on about territorial integrity and self-defence. Yet again refusing to explain.

You then finally post an article describing the imperialism of the west, which is news to no one, yet it still fails to describe why the system is breaking down, which is the question addressed to the original post.

Then when I complain that it didn't answer the question, and that indeed it merely restates what the status quo is, and has always been.

And the sum total of your response to that, is a question as to how many lives 'it' has cost.

No indication as to what the 'it' is, or even what you're going on about.

You might be knowledgeable etc, but really you're not showing it. And in your effort to say as little as possible (a good strategy on U75 to avoid getting into arguments I suppose) you are actually saying absolutely nothing, and I have got bored now.

 

[gorski]

How many lives, GM? Do you care? Or do you just like politicking?

 

[Gmart]

How many lives, GM? Do you care? Or do you just like politicking?

Whose lives are you talking about gorski?

And what was the 'it'?

Perfectly reasonable questions, and your inability or refusal to answer them merely shows you up as a charleton here to make trouble rather than to debate.

All life is important to varying degrees, so I don't realy get how this applies to the current events in this region...

 

[gorski]

Unfortunately people with "ideas" like yours occasionally get into power, put them to work and "good use" and then - suddenly and quite unexpectedly, and of course, totally unjustly, as it's only fair and democratic to try to secede along ethnic lines and "have natural borders established" as God [means You] intended - low and behold: we have so many people killed, butchered, maimed, raped, tortured, not born, driven away from their homes, impoverished, destitute and with no hope etc. etc. etc.

Ignore the reality, why don't you... After all, it won't cost you and yours your and their life/lives... Especially if you're sitting comfortably in a Presidential chair, while them poor sods pay with their very lives on the frontline, in some God foresaken village, laying their lives on the alter of the mother-/father-land [delete as appropriate], while you, quite accidentally, get into the history books as the father of the nation...

Brill! Why didn't I think of that?

 

[gorski]

All life is important to varying degrees, so I don't realy get how this applies to the current events in this region...

This gives your short.... ermmm, attention span away... You decide "to which degree" a life is important, Mr. God... Nice... For your would-be victims, in particular...

And you still can't see how politics of that sort has very real consequences? Now, who is a "charleton", eh?

 

[Gmart]

This gives your short.... ermmm, attention span away... You decide "to which degree" a life is important, Mr. God... Nice... For your would-be victims, in particular...

And you still can't see how politics of that sort has very real consequences? Now, who is a "charleton", eh?

Sorry mate but I was merely referring to the fact that I consider my life and the life of my family to be more important than others to me. I also consider animal life to be less important. I knew you wouldn't be able to resist having a pop coz that's what you do

I also knew that you would say nothing, and indeed just empty words! The funny thing is that I can't understand your words coz only you know what you are on about, while you refuse to engage in discussion about it.

Well if you ever decide to engage then please post again, meanwhile you had a chance to try and persuade me that you were right and you turned it down and so I am forced to assume that you don't have as much confidence in your view as you profess.

 

[zoltan]

probably something to do with your refusal to state anything on the subject.

Answer me this. Would you have refused the Kosovans their right to independence? I suspect not. Why shouldn't people be allowed to be independent if they vote for it?

I hope that Abkhazia will get the same choice, yet I suspect that Russia would prefer them to be part of their federation. And Ossetia, now that they can reunite properly with the North to form Ossetia itself, how will their relationship within the federation be defined? And how will this affect the Ukraine?

The best solution would be to declare Abkhazia independent, though again the UN would be unable to do so with the current permanent members. Maybe the UN should have an addition to its constitution stating that all countries which vote for independence in free elections should get an automatic membership.

Democratic will is the way to go, and this goes for Russia too, even if it doesn't like it.

Sadly, the idea of Self determination doesnt sit well with on the ground pragmatism - further bloodshed over a principle vs. working around the real life restrictions & problems with a long term view to improving everyones lot ?

 

[Gmart]

Sadly, the idea of Self determination doesnt sit well with on the ground pragmatism - further bloodshed over a principle vs. working around the real life restrictions & problems with a long term view to improving everyones lot ?

Within the EU I can see that a pragmatic approach makes more sense, as most of the laws are international now. Catalonia or Scotland might want independence but in reality it would make little difference.

Outside such a framework as the EU, I can see why nationalism and being in control of one's own destiny becomes more important. I wouldn't want to suddenly be told by the Russian Federation that I need to play by their rules now, without representation.

Isn't that how it goes? No taxes without representation?

 

[zoltan]

Within the EU I can see that a pragmatic approach makes more sense, as most of the laws are international now. Catalonia or Scotland might want independence but in reality it would make little difference.

Outside such a framework as the EU, I can see why nationalism and being in control of one's own destiny becomes more important. I wouldn't want to suddenly be told by the Russian Federation that I need to play by their rules now, without representation.

Isn't that how it goes? No taxes without representation?

basic economic forces that have dictated historical precedent usually derive form Geography/ Rescources / location - Whether you like to be dictated to by the powerhouse next door is not really an option you can choose in the real world

The likes of Kosovo & Georgia are/ could soon be in a Berlin airlift type of scenario if they continue to stick their finger up at their neighbours and fin themselves utterly marooned & besieged by the nations surrounding them - its hardly independance if you are lying back and letting the other superpower dictate your future due to your territorial impotence

I am always suspicious of Calls for nationhood / nationalism anyway - the politics behind these rallying calls rarely seems to be in the name of the residents & invokes support from the masses , but hijacking the movement for other ends - Both Georgia & Kosovo leadership are utterly corrupt and self serving

As ive mentioned before, to become a state, you need to be well versed / open to the ways statehood and diplomacy - neither of which are much in evidence in either case and the stances of both governments are unlikely to defuse decades old tensions & assist stability.

The cynic would suggest that the very nature of the outlook of these 2 states are more to do with the survival of the ruling elites than the long term maturing of the nations themselves - being on a war footing is always easier for controlling the wealth of a territory & its inhabitants

 

[Gmart]

All good points, though democratic choice for me has to be the decider. If a country declares itself independent by popular vote, and then finds itself unable to pay the bills, then it only has itself to blame. Scotland should be aware of this.

 

[nino_savatte]

None of you actually know anything about this at all, and you are all just sidestepping the issue.

Spoken like a true Objectivist.

 

[Gmart]

Spoken like a true Objectivist.

Nino, the lord of saying nothing to further a debate. I am still undecided as to whether I should have you on ignore. You contribute nothing and at worse just insult people.

Meanwhile, as I say, the democratic will of the people sometimes leads to problems. It is a well known fact that Scotland gets a lot of money from the South-East of England, and I'm sure some people in the Treasury are looking forward to not having to pay it.

Maybe independence has to be paid for in some way and if a region fails to hold its own economically then it will be absorbed by more powerful states on the border.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nino, the lord of saying nothing to further a debate. I am still undecided as to whether I should have you on ignore. You contribute nothing and at worse just insult people.

Meanwhile, as I say, the democratic will of the people sometimes leads to problems. It is a well known fact that Scotland gets a lot of money from the South-East of England, and I'm sure some people in the Treasury are looking forward to not having to pay it.

Maybe independence has to be paid for in some way and if a region fails to hold its own economically then it will be absorbed by more powerful states on the border.

Gmarthews: the master of the dodgy thread and even dodgier motives.

How have I "insulted" you? Your knowledge of the former Yugoslavia is little different to the official line put forward by NATO and much of the capitalist media. Yet, you have nothing to say to this. Your reading of this and of other situations is rather Randist as are your questions and responses. Objectivists believe that they are better debaters than anyone else; they also believe that their logic is far superior. You did once confess to liking Ayn Rand - did you not? I fail to see how one could regard that as an "insult", but then that is another means by which the dishonest attempt to control discourse.

The rest of your post is a pointless excursion. Pray tell what Scotland and the SE of England has to do with this thread?