Georgia invading South Ossetia

[Poi E]

while criticising Russia for their evil support for the seperatists. .

These would be the seperatist S Ossetians who had extremely high rates of intermarriage with Georgians and almost no history of antagonism between them and the Georgians.

If Russia is so supportive of separatists in S Ossetia and Abkhazia, why doesn't it recognise Chechen independence?

Fuck Putin.

 

[nino_savatte]

This has nothing to do with nationality or anything like it. It's about ENERGY resources.

 

[Biglittlefish]

Russia has bombed stalins home town. Irony or something.

 

[Mikey77]

If Russia is so supportive of separatists in S Ossetia and Abkhazia, why doesn't it recognise Chechen independence?

Maybe the same reason Britain and the US won't recognise South Ossetian independence, despite supporting seperatists in Kosovo.

In any case since "ethnic cleansing" seems to be taking place, then Russia are right to act.

 

[david dissadent]

Well the latest story is Russian jets are trying to bomb oil or gas pipelines in Georgia. It was on news 24, but the news 24 team thought that the Russians must have missed deliberatetly. Hmmmmm I have been more suprised if they hit it, even with a cluster bomb. Id have thought it most likely a Flogger of some kind or another (OK or maybe a Frogfoot).


I really really cannot see the US allowing attacks on Georgia proper for much longer without a huge loss of face. South Ossetia OK but actualy attacking an ally that is in the axis of the willing?

 

[lewislewis]

Is this going to be worse than Chechnya?

 

[free spirit]

Well the latest story is Russian jets are trying to bomb oil or gas pipelines in Georgia. It was on news 24, but the news 24 team thought that the Russians must have missed deliberatetly. Hmmmmm I have been more suprised if they hit it, even with a cluster bomb. Id have thought it most likely a Flogger of some kind or another (OK or maybe a Frogfoot).


I really really cannot see the US allowing attacks on Georgia proper for much longer without a huge loss of face. South Ossetia OK but actualy attacking an ally that is in the axis of the willing?

I'm pretty sure all the gas pipelines in georgia come from russia anyway, so doubt they'll be bombing them - the oil pipeline though bipasses russia completely, which I don't think russia were too happy about.

 

[david dissadent]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L9197241.htm

Russian accused Ukraine -- like Georgia a former Soviet republic now seeking NATO and EU membership -- of encouraging Tbilisi to carry out "ethnic cleansing" in South Ossetia.

also
http://www.reuters.com/article/asiaCrisis/idUSL9126746

Ah fuck. This could get ugly.

 

[david dissadent]

I'm pretty sure all the gas pipelines in georgia come from russia anyway, so doubt they'll be bombing them - the oil pipeline though bipasses russia completely, which I don't think russia were too happy about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline

The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline (sometimes abbreviated as BTC pipeline) is a crude oil pipeline that covers 1,768 kilometres (1,099 mi) from the Azeri-Chirag-Guneshli oil field in the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean Sea. It connects Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan; Tbilisi, the capital of Georgia; and Ceyhan, a port on the south-eastern Mediterranean coast of Turkey, hence its name. It is the second longest oil pipeline in the world after the Druzhba pipeline. The first oil that was pumped from the Baku end of the pipeline on May 10, 2005 reached Ceyhan on May 28, 2006.[1]

I am pretty damned sure this pipeline was bombed by Turkish Kurds a week or so ago so is out of commision which is why the war has not affected the price of oil too much. (But god there are rumours and rumours about that), but, as you say, there is an oil pipeline that transits Georgia without going through Russia.

 

[joevsimp]

... but, as you say, there is an oil pipeline that transits Georgia without going through Russia.

Surely, as it is nowhere near Ossetia, any action against it would constitute blatant economic warfare and negate any attempt by the Russians to claim that it is an intervention on behalf of the South Ossetian people

 

[david dissadent]

Surely, as it is nowhere near Ossetia, any action against it would constitute blatant economic warfare and negate any attempt by the Russians to claim that it is an intervention on behalf of the South Ossetian people

Exactly. Either the Georgians are bullshitting or the Russians are playing a very dangerous game.

 

[free spirit]

erm, bbc news 24 just tacked onto the end of a report about places russia had attacked in Georgia... "and a major pipeline"

no more info than that

 

[david dissadent]

Russia also notified Western governments that it was moving ships of its Black Sea fleet to Ochamchire, a port on the Abkhaz coast. Georgian officials said they expected Russian troops to land there.

link

Georgia says its forces have withdrawn from the separatist enclave of South Ossetia, and that Russian troops are now in control of the regional capital.

An interior ministry spokesman told the BBC it was not a military defeat but a necessary step to protect civilians from a "humanitarian catastrophe".

Georgia says Russia has brought an additional 10,000 soldiers across its frontiers, readying for a raid.

link

 

[Biglittlefish]

Russia seem to be looking for any excuse to proceed into Georgia. I dread to think what it will be like if they attack Tablisi. Anyone know if they've closed the airport yet?

I don't think this will be like Chechnya. Georgians hate Russian but i don't think their willing to fight to the last man, they have enough previous to know its not worth the cost.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

What's Turkey's response to this been? I can't see anything particularly on the news from a quick skim....

 

[Biglittlefish]

From what I've heard their supporting Georgia.

 

[david dissadent]

What's Turkey's response to this been? I can't see anything particularly on the news from a quick skim....

Ive seen nothing too specific, but they must be deeply worried.

Also the Ukraine have a large group of ethnic Russians within there borders, as do the Baltic states. None of them will be happy that Russia has just invaded what is legally Georgia and seems to be seizing land on the basis of handing out Russian passports.

Russia seems to have acted as much in violation of the UN charter as America did in 2003.

This photo was allegedly taken yesterday.

For the moment I cant confirm it, but if it is... well Putin is already near the battle scene being the Russian hero.

 

[Biglittlefish]

Ukraine are very keen to see this end. There are reports their even sending armor to the Georgians.

 

[david dissadent]

This photo was allegedly taken yesterday.

For the moment I cant confirm it, but if it is... well Putin is already near the battle scene being the Russian hero.

link

It seems that president Bush is still in China. While the argument that he is still in full communication with Washington is reasonably valid, he's chilling enjoying the Olympics while one of his closest allies is being flattened. How will that play in the former Eastern Bloc states? Worse many may feel he did a deal with Putin over Georgia, then relaxed and trusted Putin to keep the bargin.

This image should be the definitive one of his incompetance.

 

[david dissadent]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LA480092.htm

Ukraine seems to be getting more involved threatening to bar Russian warships from there ports.

 

[nino_savatte]

The problem for Ukraine is that Russia holds all the energy cards.

 

[david dissadent]

The Georgians are now claiming that the Russians intend to move out of the two break away regions.

Russian troops have warned they intend to push further into western Georgia, Georgian officials claimed Sunday as an increasingly violent territorial dispute in the former Soviet state threatened to spiral into a major international conflict.
The apparent move came after Georgian troops began withdrawing from South Ossetia, a breakaway region where military action by Tblisis last week triggered a full scale military clash with Russia that some say has left hundreds dead.

Russia's military action -- which Moscow claims is a legitimate peacekeeping mission in response to Georgian aggression -- has provoked criticism from the U.S., which Sunday condemned it as "disproportionate."

Growing concerns over the conflict have threatened to spill over Georgia's borders with Ukraine Sunday saying it might ban Russia's fleet from Crimea bases after it mobilized off the coast of Abkhazia, another breakaway region.

Analysts say Russia is trying to assert its authority in the former Soviet Union territories, where it claims many people have greater allegiance to Moscow than to Western-leaning Tblisi, a U.S. ally vying for NATO membership.

link

 

[david dissadent]

There are reports of Russian troops outside of the breakaway republics in Georgia, specificaly Gori.

 

[Belushi]

Sky are reporting two journos killed now.

Georgians claiming Russian infantry heading towards Gori.

 

[elbows]

Im guessing its the port of Poti where the oil facilities have been hit. I think its the one labelled 'Western Early 115,000 b/d' on the map on page three of this thread.

I found this about Poti on the net:

"The projects for the reconstruction and modernisation of the port of Poti, aimed at increasing its strategic role in the Euro-Asian transport corridor, include a USD 30 mln. worth construction of the Channel Energy Poti Oil Terminal, co-financed by the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD), and the Black Sea Trade Development Bank, and the USD 18 mln. Dutch co-funded rehabilitation of the breakwaters of the port."

Not sure if Russia has actually struck the larger BTC pipeline or not.

And apparently Georgia has ordered a ceasefire.

 

[Belushi]

And apparently Georgia has ordered a ceasefire.

They're getting desperate now, their move against South Ossetia has really backfired. Be interesting to see how far Russia think they can push it.

 

[david dissadent]

link

BAGHDAD (AP) _ A senior U.S. military official says the Americans have begun flying Georgian troops home from Iraq after they requested help with transportation.

Georgia has called its 2,000 troops home from Iraq to help in the fighting against Russia in the breakaway province of South Ossetia and asked the U.S. military to help transport them.

The official says that the U.S. military has agreed to their request and "some flights have already begun."

The official spoke on condition of anonymity Sunday because he was releasing the information ahead of a formal announcement.

OK US military aircraft entering Georgian airspace. Breath deep and hope no one is an idiot.

 

[elbows]

They're getting desperate now, their move against South Ossetia has really backfired. Be interesting to see how far Russia think they can push it.

Yep.

Just read a FT article, it seems Russia avoided destroying the oil facilities at Poti. Al the same, this is possibly the end of the idea that alternative pipelines are immune from Russia. The Nabucco pipeline already seemed a bit doomed, here's a little quote from the FT story:

Analysts said the conflict could deter Caspian oil and gas producers from committing oil and gas exports to routes across Georgia.

Gurbanguly Berdymukhammedov, president of Turkmenistan, offered on Friday to increase the volume of gas it had contracted to supply China through a new pipeline east out of central Asia.

Azerbaijan is considering an offer from Gazprom to import gas from its Caspian fields, a move that could sink the Nabucco pipeline’s prospects altogether.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/950c5612-66f6-11dd-808f-0000779fd18c.html

Ive lost count of how many fronts we are losing the Caspian game on. Those who downplayed Russia's power after the collapse of the Soviet Union were extremely silly.

 

[david dissadent]

http://www.president.ee/en/duties/?gid=116987

Estonia: Joint Declaration of Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian and Polish Presidents on the situation in Georgia
We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia.

We strongly condemn the actions by the Russian military forces against the sovereign and independent country of Georgia.

Following the unilateral military actions of the Russian military forces, we will use all means available to us as Presidents to ensure that aggression against a small country in Europe will not be passed over in silence or with meaningless statements equating the victims with the victimizers. To this end we intend to urge our governments to take the following positions in discussions and to raise these concerns in the European Union and the North Atlantic Council:

Can the family of European democratic countries pursue a mutually beneficial dialogue with a country that uses heavy military armour against an independent country;

The EU and NATO must take the initiative and stand-up against the spread of imperialist and revisionist policy in the East of Europe. New international peacekeeping forces should be created as the current setting proved to be ineffective.

President of the Republic of Estonia Toomas Hendrik Ilves
President of the Republic of Latvia Valdis Zatlers
President of the Republic of Lithuania Valdas Adamkus
President of the Republic of Poland Lech Kaczyński

Aye this was never going to be popular in East Europe. They beleive they were sold to Hitler at Muncih, sold to Stalin at Yalta and now do not want to see one of there own sold to Russia for expediancy.

 

[david dissadent]

BBC TV now saying that the Russians have sunk a Georgian ship. So it is a blockade.

E2A: Russia still bombing Tiblisi as per BBC.