george galloway & the burghers of bethnal green & bow

[Ryazan]

I've got a GF in the IWCA so i'm ok on that score - but, i sometimes wonder how quickly i could slide up the ladder? How soon could i be shouting at scared and inexperienced students? Or Gumbert.

Is she fit?

 

[BarryB]

OK. IIRC, there was a proposal to remove a fire engine from a fire station in the Bethnal Green area. This was, if memory serves, around the time that Galloway was seeking election there.

During this time, RESPECT were making this a local issue. There was talk of direct action, such as a blockade IIRC, to prevent removal of said engine. If memory serves, it was around this time that John Rees made a comment that all RESPECT councillors should be prepared to go to prison for their beliefs if necessary.

There was a hotly debated thread on the issue at the time, concerning what was to be done to halt the removal of the fire engine. On this thread, posters experienced in direct action were wondering what kind of direct action the SWP CC were thinking of and how it would be done.

I asked whether there would be legal support (lawyers, people to take details and arrange transport home for those arrested on their release, etc). The response was a fudge at best, IIRC. There was certainly no definite commitment made on the subject.

I also asked if there would be bustcards. Bustcards contain the name and number of a lawyer, the number of the legal support team and so on. Again, the response was, at best, a fudge. One poster asked how to make a bustcard and I supplied the relevent info. Even then, there was no confirmation that bustcards were even made, let alone distributed, even though bustcards are considered as useful bordering on essential IME.

I also raised the question of the need for legal observers, another essential IME. Again, another fudge.

So, on the question of esential supprt networks forthose at risk of arrest, nothing but a fudge. In fact, IIRC, none of these essentials were on hand, at least that was what observers at the event stated. Fortunately nobody was arrested, but if they had been they would have found themselves in the cells, at the mercy of the Old Bill, without any decent support network available to them. THAT is why I don't trust the SWP CC to organise effective and safe direct action.

As far as trust goes, I was a member of the SWP. I wouldn't trust the SWP CC as far as I could spit, and I doubt many others would either. Maybe some rookie Swappies might, but I'm pretty sure, if they went out to do direct action, they may well have ample time in the cells to regret that they had done so.

As far as 'pure motives go, I'll say this: The SWP CC seem like careerist political hacks to me. I wouldn't trust them not to send out junior members to risk arrest for the sake of a few column inches. That doesn't sound like a particularly decent thing to do. If people are made fully aware of the risks involved, fine, but I wouldn't trust the SWP CC to provide its members even that.

IIRC when it came to the crunch (ie the fire engine being physically taken away from the fire station) the threatened blockade didnt happen. But guess what? Neither Respect or the SWP bothered to mention this. In other words they have tried to cover up their failure.

BarryB

 

[oisleep]

iirc, the swp party notes/internal bulletin the following week referred to the action as a success, even though at the time of issuing the bulletin, the fire engine had already been removed

 

[Gavin Bl]

out of serious interest, are there many non student activists in the SWP?

IME there are (or were, in the 90s, when I was a member) plenty, but most of them (myself included) had been students at one time or another. Not all by any means, but a clear majority, certainly.

It wasn't so bad when we were honest about it, like someone like John Molyneux was (is he still alive?), but generally I always felt there was always an atmosphere of fakery round the whole issue.

 

[mk12]

out of serious interest, are there many non student activists in the SWP?

Yes.

 

[mk12]

I sometimes wish i was in a trot party. Or the SWP.

You would be the best recruit. If you join, could you tell people it was I who recruited you, after convincing you that Kronstadt was a tragic necessity? Thanks.

 

[sihhi]

What jobs have any of the CC done? Anyone know?

I don't know but I would have expected you to know.
Who is actually on the SWP CC itself?




If people can be bothered googling:
http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=466
has names for RESPECT's 2004 National Council:

For SWP
Mike Rosen- Radio4 broadcaster and published poet.

For RESPECT
Cheryl Garvey - bod on Race Action Partnership
Yunus Bahkash - chief nurse in Newcastle
Hannah Packman - formerly paid Labour Party Youth organiser

 

[oisleep]

Yes.

what would you put the proportion at?

 

[levien]

On the CC there's a ex postman, 2 x ex teacher, professor, I don't know about the rest but it's only 4 (highprofile) ones who I don't know definately had a job for a while.

 

[mk12]

what would you put the proportion at?

70-30? Rough guess.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

70-30? Rough guess.

In my experience the idea that the SWP is full of students is something of a myth these days. It's mostly made up of graduates, certainly, but the seemingly endless stream of student recruits has slowly dried up. That's partially a result of them finding it more difficult, partially a result of them putting their limited organisational resources into other things.

Here in Ireland I don't think they have a single sizeable student group left in any university - I had vaguely thought that they had one in Trinity College Dublin but somebody corrected me on that. In Britain they had further to fall, but there has also been a serious decline in student numbers. It wouldn't be anything like 30% of their membership.

 

[audiotech]

OK. IIRC, there was a proposal to remove a fire engine from a fire station in the Bethnal Green area. This was, if memory serves, around the time that Galloway was seeking election there.

During this time, RESPECT were making this a local issue. There was talk of direct action, such as a blockade IIRC, to prevent removal of said engine. If memory serves, it was around this time that John Rees made a comment that all RESPECT councillors should be prepared to go to prison for their beliefs if necessary.

There was a hotly debated thread on the issue at the time, concerning what was to be done to halt the removal of the fire engine. On this thread, posters experienced in direct action were wondering what kind of direct action the SWP CC were thinking of and how it would be done.

I asked whether there would be legal support (lawyers, people to take details and arrange transport home for those arrested on their release, etc). The response was a fudge at best, IIRC. There was certainly no definite commitment made on the subject.

I also asked if there would be bustcards. Bustcards contain the name and number of a lawyer, the number of the legal support team and so on. Again, the response was, at best, a fudge. One poster asked how to make a bustcard and I supplied the relevent info. Even then, there was no confirmation that bustcards were even made, let alone distributed, even though bustcards are considered as useful bordering on essential IME.

I also raised the question of the need for legal observers, another essential IME. Again, another fudge.

So, on the question of esential supprt networks forthose at risk of arrest, nothing but a fudge. In fact, IIRC, none of these essentials were on hand, at least that was what observers at the event stated. Fortunately nobody was arrested, but if they had been they would have found themselves in the cells, at the mercy of the Old Bill, without any decent support network available to them. THAT is why I don't trust the SWP CC to organise effective and safe direct action.

As far as trust goes, I was a member of the SWP. I wouldn't trust the SWP CC as far as I could spit, and I doubt many others would either. Maybe some rookie Swappies might, but I'm pretty sure, if they went out to do direct action, they may well have ample time in the cells to regret that they had done so.

As far as 'pure motives go, I'll say this: The SWP CC seem like careerist political hacks to me. I wouldn't trust them not to send out junior members to risk arrest for the sake of a few column inches. That doesn't sound like a particularly decent thing to do. If people are made fully aware of the risks involved, fine, but I wouldn't trust the SWP CC to provide its members even that.

Nobody was arrested. Well it was unlikely that was going to happen. Unless the tactic had been to storm the fire station, or other futile nonsense.

Being at 'the mercy of the old bill' is being a bit dramatic don't you think? What would the police have done exactly? Committed torture?

Everyone has the right to have legal representation. A quick phone call to a solicitor would do. This is not Chile in the 1970's ffs.

Having supported printers during 'direct action' against Eddie Shah at Warrington (and other activity). I remember everyone who was arrested afforded legal representation. I also remember long-standing SWP members on the CC attending court and giving advice. We even had a meeting in a pub before the police kicked off. Leon Britton, the then Home Secretary, had warned that anyone attending the picket would expect the consequences. No warning such as this was given by a member of the present Government with regard to the fire station blockade.

So, your hysterical bent on things appears as just that, hysterical.

 

[Pilgrim]

Nobody was arrested. Well it was unlikely that was going to happen. Unless the tactic had been to storm the fire station, or other futile nonsense.

Being at 'the mercy of the old bill' is being a bit dramatic don't you think? What would the police have done exactly? Committed torture?

Everyone has the right to have legal representation. A quick phone call to a solicitor would do. This is not Chile in the 1970's ffs.

Having supported printers during 'direct action' against Eddie Shah at Warrington (and other activity). I remember everyone who was arrested afforded legal representation. I also remember long-standing SWP members on the CC attending court and giving advice. We even had a meeting in a pub before the police kicked off. Leon Britton, the then Home Secretary, had warned that anyone attending the picket would expect the consequences. No warning such as this was given by a member of the present Government with regard to the fire station blockade.

So, your hysterical bent on things appears as just that, hysterical.

I was pointing out that the safeguards mentioned were not in place at a time when they could have been very necessary.

Not only that, the SWP CC as it currently stands seemed to have had no intention of providing them.

Does the current SWP CC have any experience of direct action, of any kind, that gives them good reason to ignore basic principles?

And do SWP CC members have the right to exhort their rank and file members to risk arrest when they patently won't do so themselves?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I was pointing out that the safeguards mentioned were not in place at a time when they could have been very necessary.

Not only that, the SWP CC as it currently stands seemed to have had no intention of providing them.

Does the current SWP CC have any experience of direct action, of any kind, that gives them good reason to ignore basic principles?

And do SWP CC members have the right to exhort their rank and file members to risk arrest when they patently won't do so themselves?

Try Lewisham 1977 - does smashing the National Front of the streets count as good "direct action"?

However, unlike anarchists, we don't think it's "cool" to get arrested for the sake of it or fetishise what is only a tactic

 

[butchersapron]

1977. Bang up to date as usual udo.

 

[Pilgrim]

Try Lewisham 1977 - does smashing the National Front of the streets count as good "direct action"?

However, unlike anarchists, we don't think it's "cool" to get arrested for the sake of it or fetishise what is only a tactic

I have no problem with no platform, if that's what you're asking.

And I think you'll find that very few people, at least among the Anarchists I've met and worked with, get themselves arrested because it was "cool", as you so patronisingly put it. It is done as a means to an end. And, for that matter, I have heard very few, if any, of the Anarchists that I have met and worked with fetishising direct action over and above other forms of protest. Personally, I've assisted people with direct action, but the crew I work with does the A to B marches, leafleting, petitions, letter writing and lobbying as well. I have on the other hand, heard plenty of flak coming from the SWP against direct action and its exponents.

It is, of course, entirely possible to be arrested on a demo or action, even without having done anything to really justify an arrest. A case that occurred here in Plymouth, where (ironically enough) two SWP members were nicked on public order charges that were later dropped, during an anti-war demo (and NOT for any direct action) springs to mind. This case serves to highlight the need for BASIC precautions such as bustcards, legal support teams and legal observers to monitor arrests and provide support for anyone arrested.

As far as Lewisham goes, that was in 1977. We are currently in 2005. Relevent legislation has changed, the police have new and wider powers, its a whole new ball game for direct action crews now. If the SW CC want to advocate and employ DA then they will have to realise that and adapt accordingly.

And, for the umpteenth time, what experience do the CURRENT SWP CC have of direct action?

And are they willing to lead by example and lead from the front?

 

[mutley]

I have no problem with no platform, if that's what you're asking.

And I think you'll find that very few people, at least among the Anarchists I've met and worked with, get themselves arrested because it was "cool", as you so patronisingly put it. It is done as a means to an end. And, for that matter, I have heard very few, if any, of the Anarchists that I have met and worked with fetishising direct action over and above other forms of protest. Personally, I've assisted people with direct action, but the crew I work with does the A to B marches, leafleting, petitions, letter writing and lobbying as well. I have on the other hand, heard plenty of flak coming from the SWP against direct action and its exponents.

It is, of course, entirely possible to be arrested on a demo or action, even without having done anything to really justify an arrest. A case that occurred here in Plymouth, where (ironically enough) two SWP members were nicked on public order charges that were later dropped, during an anti-war demo (and NOT for any direct action) springs to mind. This case serves to highlight the need for BASIC precautions such as bustcards, legal support teams and legal observers to monitor arrests and provide support for anyone arrested.

As far as Lewisham goes, that was in 1977. We are currently in 2005. Relevent legislation has changed, the police have new and wider powers, its a whole new ball game for direct action crews now. If the SW CC want to advocate and employ DA then they will have to realise that and adapt accordingly.

And, for the umpteenth time, what experience do the CURRENT SWP CC have of direct action?

Genoa and Prague were fairly direct from wot i heard. (was at work both times).

And are they willing to lead by example and lead from the front?

Someone gave me an entertaining description of the ever lovable Chris Bambery at a violent demo in Nice in 2002(?). Apparently he was stood in the middle while the teargas canisters rained down shouting 'is that all you can do?' at the coppers.

As far as all the stuff about bust-cards, detailed knowledge of legal niceties etc goes i'd admit we're a bit slapdash but the idea of evil cc members pushing hapless arrest fodder to the front goes nah mate, not convinced.

 

[Pilgrim]

Someone gave me an entertaining description of the ever lovable Chris Bambery at a violent demo in Nice in 2002(?). Apparently he was stood in the middle while the teargas canisters rained down shouting 'is that all you can do?' at the coppers.

As far as all the stuff about bust-cards, detailed knowledge of legal niceties etc goes i'd admit we're a bit slapdash but the idea of evil cc members pushing hapless arrest fodder to the front goes nah mate, not convinced.

You're entitled to your opinion, as am I, that's fair comment, no problem with that at all.

You may choose to trust them, I don't, and my previous posts, as well as those of other posters (on many SWP-related issues and on many SWP-related threads) will tell you why.

 

[audiotech]

I was pointing out that the safeguards mentioned were not in place at a time when they could have been very necessary.

Not only that, the SWP CC as it currently stands seemed to have had no intention of providing them.

Does the current SWP CC have any experience of direct action, of any kind, that gives them good reason to ignore basic principles?

And do SWP CC members have the right to exhort their rank and file members to risk arrest when they patently won't do so themselves?

Patently? Where is the evidence of that?

I don't know who is on the present SWP CC? I suspect neither do you? Nor do I, (or you) know each individuals experiences of 'direct action'. When you find out do let me know.

As for 'safeguards'? Well all I can do is point you again to my experiences. When it was necessary, there were always some people designated to get the names of those arrested. People were given slips of info with telephone numbers and in some circumstances (right to work marches, anti-fascist demo's) there were pickets organised outside police stations to demand the release of those arrested.

 

[Pilgrim]

Patently? Where is the evidence of that?

I don't know who is on the present SWP CC? I suspect neither do you? Nor do I, (or you) know each individuals experiences of 'direct action'. When you find out do let me know.

As for 'safeguards'? Well all I can do is point you again to my experiences. When it was necessary, there were always some people designated to get the names of those arrested. People were given slips of info with telephone numbers and in some circumstances (right to work marches, anti-fascist demo's) there were pickets organised outside police stations to demand the release of those arrested.

Well, I haven't seen any of the SWP CC leading from the front or by example. Just the opposite, in fact. They have been slagging off direct action and its exponents for a good few years now.

As far as the individual SWP CC member's experience of direct action goes, you're right. Neither of us knows what experience they have.

But I DIDN'T state that they had no experience of direct action.

All I did was to ask WHETHER they had any experience of direct action.

A question I still haven't had a decent answer to yet.

Nor, I suspect, will I get one.

I'm not asking for anything incriminating, I've been on the direct action scene long enough to know that you don't ask for incriminating evidence, and nobody is likely to give you any either. But some general examples, that could be supported by reliable sources would be fair enough.

That's what I'm asking for.

 

[audiotech]

Well, I haven't seen any of the SWP CC leading from the front or by example. Just the opposite, in fact. They have been slagging off direct action and its exponents for a good few years now.

As far as the individual SWP CC member's experience of direct action goes, you're right. Neither of us knows what experience they have.

But I DIDN'T state that they had no experience of direct action.

All I did was to ask WHETHER they had any experience of direct action.

A question I still haven't had a decent answer to yet.

Nor, I suspect, will I get one.

I'm not asking for anything incriminating, I've been on the direct action scene long enough to know that you don't ask for incriminating evidence, and nobody is likely to give you any either. But some general examples, that could be supported by reliable sources would be fair enough.

That's what I'm asking for.

'..direct action scene...' say's it all really. See mutley above for an example. Now do be a good boy and return to your 'scene' as your boring the pants off me.

 

[Pilgrim]

'..direct action scene...' say's it all really. See mutley above for an example. Now do be a good boy and return to your 'scene' as your boring the pants off me.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, MC5.

And what is it exactly you have against the phrase? It isn't as though quite a few Anarchists dislike being referred to as a 'movement', now is it?

 

[audiotech]

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, MC5.

And what is it exactly you have against the phrase? It isn't as though quite a few Anarchists dislike being referred to as a 'movement', now is it?

I was being honest.

'scene' to me is a trend, a fashion statement.

Well yes I can see why some anarchists may dislike the phrase 'movement'. People might put the word bowel in front of it.

 

[Pilgrim]

I was being honest.

'scene' to me is a trend, a fashion statement.

Well yes I can see why some anarchists may dislike the phrase 'movement'. People might put the word bowel in front of it.

If I wanted to be trendy, do you really think I'd be involved with Anarchism and Anarchists? There are plenty of other 'scenes', as you put it, that are a great deal more appealing to those who bounce from one 'cause of the week' to another as soon as a particular cause loses its shine, and some actual hard graft is involved.

And it isn't as if the SWP don't flit lightly from one cause to another in an endless (and largely futile) search for popularity, now is it?

And your remark about the phrase movement is barely worthy of a response. Even some witless Trotbot like Udo or RW could come up with something better than that. It reeks of ignorant prejudice to me.

 

[audiotech]

If I wanted to be trendy, do you really think I'd be involved with Anarchism and Anarchists? There are plenty of other 'scenes', as you put it, that are a great deal more appealing to those who bounce from one 'cause of the week' to another as soon as a particular cause loses its shine, and some actual hard graft is involved.

And it isn't as if the SWP don't flit lightly from one cause to another in an endless (and largely futile) search for popularity, now is it?

And your remark about the phrase movement is barely worthy of a response. Even some witless Trotbot like Udo or RW could come up with something better than that. It reeks of ignorant prejudice to me.

Fuck me, talk about taking yourself too seriously and that with the above cliched ridden clap-trap.

What's the 'hard graft' you talk about?

 

[audiotech]

Oh and by the way, I have been involved and worked alongside quite a few anarchists who have had something constructive to offer.

 

[Pilgrim]

Fuck me, talk about taking yourself too seriously and that with the above cliched ridden clap-trap.

What's the 'hard graft' you talk about?

Standing out for hours in the pissing rain and wind handing out leaflets springs to mind.

Flyposting all evening, in the pissing rain and wind, while watching out for coppers the whole time.

Arranging and promoting a benefit gig.

On a camp, getting up at five or six in the morning to do legal support on an action, and being at it all day and possibly part of the night too.

Setting up an outdoor site, and tatting down that site after several days of stormy weather, having had maybe thirty hours sleep during the whole camp.

Doing police liaison, which means taking a lot of hassle from both sides on a continuous basis for the whole camp.

Spending a whole day on an action, having not had the chance to sleep at all the night before.

Seems like hard graft to me. And precisely the sort of thing that scenesters tend to avoid.

 

[audiotech]

Standing out for hours in the pissing rain and wind handing out leaflets springs to mind.

Flyposting all evening, in the pissing rain and wind, while watching out for coppers the whole time.

Arranging and promoting a benefit gig.

On a camp, getting up at five or six in the morning to do legal support on an action, and being at it all day and possibly part of the night too.

Setting up an outdoor site, and tatting down that site after several days of stormy weather, having had maybe thirty hours sleep during the whole camp.

Doing police liaison, which means taking a lot of hassle from both sides on a continuous basis for the whole camp.

Spending a whole day on an action, having not had the chance to sleep at all the night before.

Seems like hard graft to me. And precisely the sort of thing that scenesters tend to avoid.

I once worked at a holiday camp too.

 

[butchersapron]

Skeggy SWP summer jolly was it?

 

[Pilgrim]

I once worked at a holiday camp too.

Fair do's, that did tickle me a tad.

I know I can get pretty intense sometimes. And maybe I do take my work a little too seriously. But it is a passion of mine and I don't like to do things half-arsed. I'm very much an all-or-nothing kind of person. I don't deny it.

And while it sometimes gets me into trouble, I wouldn't be without it either.

Been fun sparring with you, MC5.

I'm off to have a bath and a late dinner.

See you fine folks tomorrow.