GAZA WITHDRAWAL: latest news and developments

[EuroDude2006]

I welcome the withdrawl from Gaza. However, the West Bank must be next. No excuses please Israel. Out of Gaza, Out of West Bank. Now!

 

[ViolentPanda]

My father-in-law and I discussed this issue last night. Do you people think HAMAS will stop attacking Jews once this evacuation has occurred?

I don't think they will.

That's entirely possible.

However, if Israel has withdrawn from the occupied territories and attacks still occur then people won't be able to excuse the "terrorists" through reference to the occupation, will they? The "terrorists" in effect, will have no claim to legitimacy, and could be dealt with accordingly.

Are you saying that Israel shouldn't withdraw because of the possibility of attacks continuing to occur, as that doesn't appear particularly logical, at least to me.

 

[ymu]

My father-in-law and I discussed this issue last night. Do you people think HAMAS will stop attacking Jews once this evacuation has occurred?

I don't think they will.

They don't attack Jews, they attack Israelis. There is a difference. And why would the withdrawal of 7,000 settlers in Gaza cause Hamas to lay down it's arms when there are half a million settlers left in the West Bank and East Jerusalem?

 

[Fenian]

Briefly, I'm in Tel Aviv atm en route to elsewhere, and Khikar Rabin, the main square renamed to the memory of Rabin who was killed there by an Israeli fundamentalist, was filled last night with pro-settlers bemoaning the disengagement process. Police say 150,000, settlers say 300,000.

There was a preponderance of religious elements to the dismay of even anti-disengagement secularists.

It's true that Tel Aviv is a more secular city than, say, Jerusalem.

They have very little support in Tel Aviv, apparently. People in favour of the settlers are being urged to wear orange - streamers, armbands, wristbands etc. A minuscule number were in evidence today on the streets, in bars, on the beach or anywhere in the town centre. The overwhelming mood is for disengagement from Gaza.

 

[Dyno]

Are you saying that Israel shouldn't withdraw because of the possibility of attacks continuing to occur, as that doesn't appear particularly logical, at least to me.

The tactical aspect of the withdrawl is disturbing. The reason why the Israelis took the land after the last war was to buffer some of the country's more populated areas from assault.

In withdrawing the Palestinians gain control of a deep water harbour. Only a few years ago a boat heading for that harbour was searched and tons of artillery pieces were found on board. These pieces were bound for Lebanon. As well there is a large power station which serves as a potentially crippling target.

Some major Israeli cities will now be but a few kilometers from the new border. If a group like Hamas continues their attacks the loses will be like nothing we have seen in this theatre of conflict.

So I would say it is a tremendous leap of faith to withdraw.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So I would say it is a tremendous leap of faith to withdraw.

I thought that much was obvious.

It's also necessary if Israel isn't to go down the tubes financially. Securing the settlements in the occupied territories is a financial burden Israel can currently well do without if it isn't to cause hardship to a much larger section of the population than the settlers comprise.

 

[Dyno]

Hmm... I always thought America footed Israel's military bill... Though with Afganistan and Iraq now being used as US military bases Israel's strategic importance has been severely diminish than say five years ago. Perhaps it's America who want to limit the money they give to Israel.

The loose end that disturbs me the most about this whole issue is the secular and media support for anti-jewish (yes jewish) propaganda on the part of the Palestinians. For generations schools, churches, and television have taught hatred and I don't think these kids - plus the fighters of today - are going to lie down for anything.

An excellent documentary on the subject is called Blaming the Jews. The show is really nothing more than Palestinian television excerpts plus interviews with teachers, education specialists, and even education ministers. It is shocking, damning, and makes me wonder if there will ever be peace.

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/blaming_the_jews

 

[ViolentPanda]

Hmm... I always thought America footed Israel's military bill... Though with Afganistan and Iraq now being used as US military bases Israel's strategic importance has been severely diminish than say five years ago. Perhaps it's America who want to limit the money they give to Israel.

The US (as many pro-Zionists are at pains to point out, to show they're not "in America's pocket") gives a certain amount of financial support. It doesn't, however, "foot Israel's military bill".

The loose end that disturbs me the most about this whole issue is the secular and media support for anti-jewish (yes jewish) propaganda on the part of the Palestinians. For generations schools, churches, and television have taught hatred and I don't think these kids - plus the fighters of today - are going to lie down for anything.

An excellent documentary on the subject is called Blaming the Jews. The show is really nothing more than Palestinian television excerpts plus interviews with teachers, education specialists, and even education ministers. It is shocking, damning, and makes me wonder if there will ever be peace.

http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/B/blaming_the_jews

All very well, but you appear to be searching for reasons to object to withdrawal, and turning stuff up that isn't relevant to the situation here and now.

You should also bear in mind that European financial aid to the Palestinian Authority is tied in that it is conditional on the removal of anti-Semitism from Palestinian curricula

I'll ask you again (as you didn't answer the question previously, but rather talked about "leaps of faith":

Are you saying that Israel shouldn't withdraw because of the possibility of attacks continuing to occur?

 

[sihhi]

Pal Freedom of Movement will still be restricted.

according to this article from Gaza resident Al Jazeera journalist

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BFF9785D-D4B5-4363-808F-66659D91E952.htm

 

[energy]

according to this article from Gaza resident Al Jazeera journalist

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/BFF9785D-D4B5-4363-808F-66659D91E952.htm

Well, I imagine they don't want thousands of Palestinians getting in the way of the evacuation, and they don't want militants to be able to come out and fire at the operation.

 

[energy]

Well, it looks like the evacuation is about to get under way. I feel that I should have some long comment to make, but I'm at a loss for words. I just hope none of my settler friends (I have a few friends in Gaza, even though I disagree with them fundamentally on many things) don't do anything stupid.

 

[energy]

Did anyone see C4 news this evening? Do you remember they interviewed a settler with an Australian accent called Daniel Lourie? I know him and his brother, although haven't seen them for many years.

Edit: Just did a Google for "Daniel Lourie" and he is quite an extremist. I don't remember him being like that (very religious, but not extreme).

 

[Pickman's model]

so, nothing's happened yet then, eh?

 

[energy]

so, nothing's happened yet then, eh?

Disappointed that they haven't sent in the tanks yet?

 

[nino_savatte]

Did anyone see C4 news this evening? Do you remember they interviewed a settler with an Australian accent called Daniel Lourie? I know him and his brother, although haven't seen them for many years.

Edit: Just did a Google for "Daniel Lourie" and he is quite an extremist. I don't remember him being like that (very religious, but not extreme).

I get the feeling around 98% of the settlers are extremists or fundies.

 

[tangentlama]

Nino - and quite alot of the Govt too, I suspect

If the disengagement is intended to truly address the concerns and interests of Palestinians and not a momentary diversion to buy time to continue with the discriminatory Israeli agenda, then how should these and other actions by Israel (which betray a state actively maneuvering to ensure that a Palestinian state will not emerge) be interpreted? Certainly, in good faith, the removal of 1,200 settler houses illegally placed in Palestinian territory is a necessary action for the Israelis to make before, after and during the discussions of an end to occupation and eventual Palestinian statehood, but forgive the leap of faith that would be required for a people to accept without skepticism the words and plans of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Where is this historic step taking us? Israel is removing 1,200 settler houses, while planning the construction of 700 more elsewhere, while planning to construct a sea barrier 950m (yards) off the coastline of Gaza as an extension of Israel's border, and while planning to build a wall to effectively expropriate 47 percent of the West Bank, leaving Palestinians with 12 percent of historic Palestine.

http://www.miftah.org/Display.cfm?DocId=7748&CategoryId=3

 

[energy]

I get the feeling around 98% of the settlers are extremists or fundies.

No, not at all. There are reports that 95% of residents of some settlements have already left, and they are secular, non extremists. I think that the vast majority of settlers are there fore economic reasons. We only see the extremists on the news because they are the most vocal and "interesting".

 

[nino_savatte]

No, not at all. There are reports that 95% of residents of some settlements have already left, and they are secular, non extremists. I think that the vast majority of settlers are there fore economic reasons. We only see the extremists on the news because they are the most vocal and "interesting".

The "magic" of television - eh?

 

[energy]

The "magic" of television - eh?

According to the Jerusalem Post, 66% of families have agreed to leave (that's 1,127 families out of 1,716).

 

[Dyno]

Are you saying that Israel shouldn't withdraw because of the possibility of attacks continuing to occur?

Honestly, I don't know. I want both sides to be safe and happy but can't convince myself that the withdraw will facilitate that.

I am split down the middle with this issue.

 

[Dyno]

The US (as many pro-Zionists are at pains to point out, to show they're not "in America's pocket") gives a certain amount of financial support. It doesn't, however, "foot Israel's military bill".

The facts would indicate otherwise.

Israel's military budget (2004) sat as 9.11 billion. The US gives nearly 7 billion per year to Isreal. Private US donations equate to around another 1.5 billion per year. These numbers do not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest equalling just over 3 billion that the US pays on the money borrowed to to give to Israel.

One third of all US foriegn aid is given to Israel. In essence they are footing Isreal's military budget.

 

[rennie]

Honestly, I don't know. I want both sides to be safe and happy but can't convince myself that the withdraw will facilitate that.

I am split down the middle with this issue.

a little bit late don't u think?

 

[ViolentPanda]

The facts would indicate otherwise.

Israel's military budget (2004) sat as 9.11 billion. The US gives nearly 7 billion per year to Isreal. Private US donations equate to around another 1.5 billion per year. These numbers do not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest equalling just over 3 billion that the US pays on the money borrowed to to give to Israel.

Did the facts tell you that part of the almost 7 billion dollars a year (about 2.5 bil IIRC) is tied industrial and infrastructural aid?
Did they also tell you that private remittances to private individuals or to foundations, charities and the like don't tend to be forwarded to the Israeli government for use to purchase weapons?

One third of all US foriegn aid is given to Israel. In essence they are footing Isreal's military budget.

In essence my eye!
IMO your reductionist statement ignores the reality of the use and possible misuse of tied aid. Even the Israeli state (whose civil service are past-masters at playing financial games) can't get away with egregiously misusing such large sums every financial year

It'd be more accurate to say that the US "in essence" foots Egypt's military budget, as more aid goes directly (as a percentage of total) into military spending.

 

[Dyno]

I can tell that you are very close to this issue. It has you splitting hairs and trying to make a point with semantics.

Israel currently runs at a deficit. It stands at around 48 billion in revenue and 52 billion in expenses. The US tops up the shortfall to the tune of nearly 10 billion all in - which is very near what the country spends on defense.

Is this just a coincidence? If the US weren't assisting Israel then defense spending is the first place they would be compelled to make cuts. What's the bloody difference in where the money actually goes, whether its development, arms, or anything else? 10 bil is 10 bil and because America ponies up the very large sums it does Israel can afford to float a military that soaks up around 20% of its funds annually.

Thinking that some moral imperative is upheld because the money is earmarked to another department is illusionary at best. When you give money to a country you fund all of its departments at the end of the day.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You miss the point about so-called "tied aid".
It's the stuff where you get credits to buy goods (usually at no discount from the manufacturer) from a manufacturer in the aid-donor's country. It can't be used to buy "listed" goods (military hardware, dual-use good etc).
In fact it's not really money going to the Israeli exchequer at, it's just a tacky way for the US (by fair the largest user of the "tied aid" idea) to subsidise exports off the balance sheets.

BTW, I'm not "splitting hairs", and my closeness to the issue is to do with actively protesting against the money the US pumps in.
It's unfortunate for me that when I see someone make a statement about which I have particular information I'm enough of an old fart to think they might like to know too.

 

[energy]

Guys, please keep the discussion to topic, i.e. the Gaza pullout. If you want to discuss military aid, please start another thread.

 

[DexterTCN]

What's America saying about it?

All the US is talking about is the Iran nuclear problem and the Iraqi constitution. And Bush is on his month long hide-away.

 

[invisibleplanet]

What's America saying about it?

New York Times says:

NEVE DEKALIM, Gaza, Monday, Aug. 15 - A crowd of Jewish teenagers slashed the tires and smashed the windows of army jeeps here late Sunday in what may be a preview of violent scenes by young protesters as Israel prepares to withdraw from the Gaza Strip this week.

Among the protesters were some of the hundreds, and possibly thousands, of religious Jewish young men and women who have illegally made their way to this and other settlements in Gaza ahead of withdrawal.

Young, proud, and dismissive of the state's authority, they have vowed resistance to the pullout, which they say is against God's will. They speak of a new sense of energy and power from coming together in such large numbers. But in conversations with many of them it becomes less clear what they really mean by resistance.

Some have begun to lose patience with what they see as passivity by the leaders of the settler movement. On Sunday night, many ignored pleas for peace by a prominent rabbi and settlement leaders, who climbed on the hoods of the damaged jeeps the protesters were blocking. The adults begged them to stop their violent acts and let the soldiers pass.

One young man with a beard and side curls yelled to a group of girls who told him slashing tires was wrong: "He's not my rabbi. My rabbi tells me to do otherwise."
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/15/international/middleeast/15settlements.html

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip, Aug. 14 - Militants have done so much of the dreaming for Gaza's Palestinians for so long that others seem almost to have lost the habit. Now, on the eve of the scheduled departure of Gaza's other highly ambitious residents - the Israelis settlers who hoped to hold the land forever - Gazans are tentatively contemplating an unfamiliar possibility, new freedom. Most have what might seem modest notions of what do with it.

"To go upstairs," said Muhammad Bashir, 12, when asked Sunday what he dreamed of after the withdrawal. His home here in central Gaza is about 70 yards from an Israeli military base guarding the settlement of Kfar Darom. At the start of the last Palestinian uprising almost five years ago, the Israeli Army took over the upper two floors.

Across Mecca Street from the Bashirs' home, Israeli soldiers have stretched coils of concertina wire through the neighbors' backyards. Beyond that barrier is Salahadin Road, the major north-south road in Gaza, which has been closed during most of the uprising. Then comes the towering concrete wall of Kfar Darom, girded in part by a rust-red antirocket shield.

These settlements are such a part of Gaza's landscape, and the army's constraints are such a part of life here, that is hard even for an occasional visitor to imagine them gone. Haya Bashir, also 12 and a neighbor and relative of Muhammad's, dreams of once again being able to play hide-and-seek outside. "I have to do it inside," she said.
source: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/15/international/middleeast/15gaza.html

 

[vimto]

Well, it looks like the evacuation is about to get under way. I feel that I should have some long comment to make, but I'm at a loss for words. I just hope none of my settler friends (I have a few friends in Gaza, even though I disagree with them fundamentally on many things) don't do anything stupid.

Where do you live yourself energy?

That would be a good starting point eh

 

[vimto]

waqnker