Lobster: The world, unlike you and your view of the world, more often than not recognises that the terrorists operate from civlian areas in some of the most densely populated areas on the planet. they use their neighbours and family as shileds and as such, greatly boost the chances of collateral damage.
ALL militaries are reluctant to allow outside forces push theitr hand in matters that concern personel. Yet it happens. Unlike America [and probably the UK and Australia], Israel allows civil prosecution of soldiers that stand accused of heinous crimes. There soldiers sitting in civil prisons. Yes, some do get away with crimes but this is how it is in every military on the planet, albeit this does not ratonalise this.
I believe if someone has irrefutably committed a criminal act, then they should be prosecuted to the max. They dirty not only the uniform but their country and both to me should be capital offenses.
"Israel overreacts in retaliating." Overreaction, in one of the most densely populated spots on Eart would be allowing IAF bombing runs in Gaza City or Rafah. Allowing an Infantry platoon, accompained by an Amroured unti to engage in an excursion in order to weed out known missile launching sites is not over reacting. If these men are then fired upon, what would be your suggestion as to how they should respond?
I will try an exercise here. In Israel, we have what is called "G'bbush." It is [usually] a 3 dat vetting process for elite units in our military. The first day is intellectual assesment, the second physical, and the third is the most interesting....psycho-social exercises. The exercises are of the ilk where you cannot possibly simply have a right or wrong answer or reaction. For example.....I will pose one that I was forced to deal with when I was a teen and I was vetted for a paticular training assignment.
Say you are ordered to enter a camp, erect a permieter, and then take down a house. Entering the house, you clear it as trained, hearding males into one room, females into another, and then do a thorough search of premises for escape routs and contraband, as well as hiding individuals.
What would you do, if you were tasked with clearing the second fllor, and as you enter the kitchen [kitchens in our part of the world are oftebn on the second floor] you seea 3 year old smiling girl, barefoot and dirty, with her finger on the pin of a grenade about to pull it. What do you do?
Please imagine you are in the exercise and imagine it is real, cause we happen to deal with situations like this more than you think.
If you do nothing, she will pull the pin, not only killing herself but killing all your platoon mates as well. If you shoot, you will kill an inncoent 3 year old girl, fa ce an inquest, perhaps criminal charges under the worst scenario, and with a doubt a roasting by know it all foreigners in the press,etc. [sound familiar].
What do you do? Please answer.
See, this is what life is like for an Israeli soldier. People like you have the comfort of an unwavering morality. The real world is a bit fdifferent. I happen to see people, many people, rush to judgement before a body is even cold. It is sickening. If people on the ground cannot make an unwavering call, how can armchair observers such as yourself be so sure what happened?
Being smart changes nothing. We have the best equipment on Earth. Arguably the best training and most combat ready officer corps on the planet. Still, as demonstrated by my G'bbush exercise above, things happen and they happen all the time.
"If lots of civilians are blockading a target, why not wait for the civilians to walk away?" Fair enough question. Here is your answer. Ghandiesque non-violence has never taken hold in either Gaza or the "West Bank." When street actions take place, they inevitably start by slingshotted stones coming at your head at roughly 100 mph plus. The women, throw whatever they can get their hands on. If close enough, they spit in your face, knowing that our ROE does not permit direct confrontations with females.
If civilians ARE blocking and "protecting" wanted militants, the IDF will just surround them and create a "permieter." If the perimeter is tested, then an appropriate counter measure is taken. this is how violence sometimes begins. Other times it begins when one of the "protecting" civilians or one of the "protected" opens fire on the perimeter guard. ROE specifies that one MUST, for the protection of one's squad or platoon mates as well as public at large engage these aggressive parties.
You see, thse "well meaning civilians" never just walk away.
"Even if tanks stay somewhere for weeks, is it not better than killing people?" You have any idea how many people are wanted by Israeli Forces? If we were to park a squad of tanks around each one's hole, we would quickly run out of armoured units. That is not a realistic option. In any event, it makes no difference as far aas security issues go because civilians in the area will willingly engage a tank with a molotov in hopes of ending up on next weeks Shaheed poster. that is just the way things are here.
"Randomly killing people." You got it wrong, it is "PAlestinians" who do the random killing, not Israeli tanks. The IDF operates under a system of objectives. The only objective of the militant groups is total destruction of Israel and its people, and in some cases World Jewry at large.
FullyPlumped: Thank you for clearing that one up.
I do not think the fact that I have lost many family and friends to armed conflict has changed my views on violence as perpertrated by terror organisations. It is wrong anyway you look at it.
Moono: I am well acquainted with D'mato's paper. Try reading Dershowitz's rebuttal. Better yet, since people on this forum like to disparage him so much, try Professor Benes and his concise rebuttal to D'amato's bogus nonsense. Israel , in its current form began in 1861! Not with the UN ratification which merely brought it to legal fruition.
You use a messed up, mistranslated quote by Ben Gurion to boost your One State fantasy? Great....Now try some facts. Show us there major, i.e. non-fringe, groups on both sides working to achieve this "vision." thanks.
. i.e grenade in room storm room shoot everyone in room and anywhere which might hide someone. Some col is quoted as saying this might be over the top in certain circumstances !
