"Gaza doctor's loss grips Israelis" - Dr Abuelaish loses daughters in Israeli strike

[chainsaw cat]

No, I know you ain't self dramatising, neither was I.

I was just pondering why the hatred of IDF activity is so many levels above, say, the hatred of what Russia does every now and then in Chechenya or any number of other obscene little adventures.

I reckon it's the sense of betrayal - although I'm not going to elaborate as it is clearly bed time, what with the baby having had the 2am bottle and me climbing wind turbines tomorrow - like watching a friend turn bad.


I'd be interested to read what people in my position (non Jew/Palestinian*, lefty, robust about defence, ardently democratic, British) think about what I posted, and to compare with views from more partisan types (you know, the ones who are circumcised and don't eat pork).

I'd guess that the Palestine faction on here would agree with the slagging of Israel but deny there was any reason to think that there was any good in Israel, ever.

Conversely, Israel supporters will be cross, as their favoured nation is clearly a beacon of good and providing rational responses to threats with the special magic of bombs.


























* although I have no foreskin, see Naked Urbanites for details.

 

[isitme]

My wake up moment came last year and it was similar to yours chainsaw cat ... it was in february when the IDF killed 200 palestinians for no apparent reason, in "operation hot winter" or whatever it was ...

and then i started looking more closely at some of the stuff people i knew had been saying to me for years that i just hadn't wanted to listen to or had not been ready to ..

when i read about the nakba and all the things that i'd previosuly thoguht were "palestinian propaganda" , i cried but it wasn't only because of what had happened and sympathy for the victims, it was becuase i was mourning the place that israel had had in my mind, as a jew, and the fact that that i had always thought that israel was basically "good" - like, it did bad things but they were in self defence blah blah blah ...

reading about the nakba, in particluar, was such a shock for me because it made me realise that israel's "existence" wasn't such a good thing after all, that i had been lied to growing up and that a lot of the things that i took for granted - in what i learned in synagogue etc - was built on a disgusting myth and that the whole project to create israel was actually a bad thing, that the zionist movement had been built on the disposession of people, rather than a good thing that went wrong ...

i really cannot emphasise how much of a shock it was to read about it - and how much it affected me

sorry

this isn't about me

The thing is tho, there is an Israel that you believe in, and long may it exist, if Hamas and Hezboaalah did get their way it would still be a fucking horrible place

the israel that you imagined is better than the country imagined by those cunts (if there really was an arab nation Israel wouldn't stand a chance against the arabs (it's at the very conveneint figure of 6m )

Israel is an fucking horrible place, just like Egypt or Syria or Lebanon

It wouldn't be solved by getting rid of Israel, it's just the ultimate target, being a Jewish American project set up in the Arab holy land

 

[frogwoman]

the thing with russia is that - let's be honest - we don't expect them to do anytihng else

we expect them to do that sort of thing

everyone knows the russian government is fucked, corrupt, murder people with polonium etc, everyone knows that china has a complete disregard for human rights, keeps north korea and burma as "pets", shoots people, forces them off land, and now - everyone knows that america's wars are all about oil, that they are a massive country that is completely self absorbed and self interested, they may be our ally but everyone knows they're just as rotten as everyone else

but with israel - the foundation of israel, i always thought, was like a fuck you to fascism like you said, it represented hope, and it represented the fact that the Jews could completely turn themselves round after the devatastion we suffered in world war II. the whole establihment of Israel is really idealistic, if that makes sense...it does seem at first glance to be a country that is totally based on human rights etc ... and a lot of things israel have done has been really admirable and when you actually look at it objectively it is like a betrayal

 

[frogwoman]

The thing is tho, there is an Israel that you believe in, and long may it exist, if Hamas and Hezboaalah did get their way it would still be a fucking horrible place

the israel that you imagined is better than the country imagined by those cunts (if there really was an arab nation Israel wouldn't stand a chance against the arabs (it's at the very conveneint figure of 6m )

Israel is an fucking horrible place, just like Egypt or Syria or Lebanon

It wouldn't be solved by getting rid of Israel, it's just the ultimate target, being a Jewish American project set up in the Arab holy land

but the israel imagined by the settlers is obviously worse than i imagined ... and i'm sure there are plenty of palestinians with an idealistic (ie non-hezboallah) version of palestine ... whether or not it would work though

good post tho

 

[isitme]

the thing with russia is that - let's be honest - we don't expect them to do anytihng else

we expect them to do that sort of thing

everyone knows the russian government is fucked, corrupt, murder people with polonium etc, everyone knows that china has a complete disregard for human rights, keeps north korea and burma as "pets", shoots people, forces them off land, and now - everyone knows that america's wars are all about oil, that they are a massive country that is completely self absorbed and self interested, they may be our ally but everyone knows they're just as rotten as everyone else

but with israel - the foundation of israel, i always thought, was like a fuck you to fascism like you said, it represented hope, and it represented the fact that the Jews could completely turn themselves round after the devatastion we suffered in world war II. the whole establihment of Israel is really idealistic, if that makes sense...it does seem at first glance to be a country that is totally based on human rights etc ... and a lot of things israel have done has been really admirable and when you actually look at it objectively it is like a betrayal

i read a thing about israel (in 1948) and france and britain were dead against it. not the concept of israel, just the way it was being set up as a 'gangster state' by americans

the thing that get me tho, is that when i was a kid. there were gap years and kibbutzs. i couldn't afford to do that shit of course, but going to spend a year in israel and hang out with israeli's and palestinians was like one of those options

now israel is just in constant war

the irony of the war is there for all to see, specially when you compare it to Germany or Japan who have never been involved in any war since their defeats

 

[chainsaw cat]

the thing with russia is that - let's be honest - we don't expect them to do anytihng else

we expect them to do that sort of thing

everyone knows the russian government is fucked, corrupt, murder people with polonium etc, everyone knows that china has a complete disregard for human rights, keeps north korea and burma as "pets", shoots people, forces them off land, and now - everyone knows that america's wars are all about oil, that they are a massive country that is completely self absorbed and self interested, they may be our ally but everyone knows they're just as rotten as everyone else

but with israel - the foundation of israel, i always thought, was like a fuck you to fascism like you said, it represented hope, and it represented the fact that the Jews could completely turn themselves round after the devatastion we suffered in world war II. the whole establihment of Israel is really idealistic, if that makes sense...it does seem at first glance to be a country that is totally based on human rights etc ... and a lot of things israel have done has been really admirable and when you actually look at it objectively it is like a betrayal

Russia - what you said I deleted from my post, word for word, to concentrate on Israel!

But I also deleted that I feel the same about America as I do about Israel.... They are meant to be the Apollo missions, Rock 'n' Roll, Omah Beach, big cars and open roads to the other side of the biggest country. Hope, aspiration, reward. The symbol of the USA is Liberty, a small statue on a French bridge made massive to shout out a principle.


And what do we get? Political dynasty, environmental myopia, squalid wars, Guantamano Bay, unfree trade, unequal treaties.


Makes me weep.


Anyway, back to Israel, that poor bastard of a doctor, any further links to how the media are handling it over there?

 

[isitme]

but the israel imagined by the settlers is obviously worse than i imagined ... and i'm sure there are plenty of palestinians with an idealistic (ie non-hezboallah) version of palestine ... whether or not it would work though

good post tho

israel should be full of people like us (even if I can't prove i'm jewish, it's the jew on the inside that counts

 

[fela fan]

But I also deleted that I feel the same about America as I do about Israel.... They are meant to be the Apollo missions, Rock 'n' Roll, Omah Beach, big cars and open roads to the other side of the biggest country. Hope, aspiration, reward. The symbol of the USA is Liberty, a small statue on a French bridge made massive to shout out a principle.


And what do we get? Political dynasty, environmental myopia, squalid wars, Guantamano Bay, unfree trade, unequal treaties.

The contradiction of much of humanity, the connundrum: the good comes with the bad. But if we search a bit further, the contradiction greatly pales off: the leadership do their things, the bad stuff, the people in general are good and try to live life properly, but are both busy and completely lied to in the media of their country. No-one in american really has any clue about what israel do to palestine because nothing is ever written, and if the odd piece comes out, it's of course manipulated rubbish.

Study the language used by the bbc - it's blatantly pro-israel and anti-palestine.

Language in fact is at the heart of all this. The people rely upon the media to tell them what's going on. The leadership use the media to put forward their own version of reality.

For 60 years now, the main aggressors of humankind have been the US and Israel, with often some input from the UK. Russia of course do their stuff, but everyone knew that because they were the commie enemies for so long.

All the peoples in the world who are fucked over are fucked because their lives are expendable to the leaders, and the media fail miserably in their responsibility to act as a check and balance against the abuses of those in power.

 

[chainsaw cat]

Is there another planet except for Planets Alc and Drugs what I can go to please?

 

[frogwoman]

israel should be full of people like us (even if I can't prove i'm jewish, it's the jew on the inside that counts

 

[isitme]

my dad used to have a volvo

 

[frogwoman]

was he shit at parking it?

 

[isitme]

nah

it was always full of crap tho (just in case)

 

[chainsaw cat]

israel should be full of people like us (even if I can't prove i'm jewish, it's the jew on the inside that counts

I can blag Jewish due to the end of my willy but I'd be hard pressed to do much more than that.

Still, it's a start, would you like some scissors?

Then you can say to girls 'hey, it's the Jew inside that counts.... and I want that to be me.'


Might work.

 

[albionism]

Spectacularly useless title ('FFS'). Wrong forum (general). Extra work for mod (rename and move thread. PLEASE make some effort when starting threads

apologies Ed

 

[fela fan]

Is there another planet except for Planets Alc and Drugs what I can go to please?

Yes there is, and you don't have to travel far.

Add nothing negative to our planet, argue against the negative that comes into your immediate life, and drop the media, forget about reading it. It's nothing more than a manipulative organ. Knowing the 'news' is one thing (and to all right-minded people it's usually deeply distressing and depressing), but understanding the reasons and causes of behaviour by those with power gives us tools to fight the negative that we come across. Hence the need to find alternative sources of information and knowledge. Newspapers are useless because they inadvertently allow barabaric behaviour to continue, unless it's by the wrong people.

 

[isitme]

I can blag Jewish due to the end of my willy but I'd be hard pressed to do much more than that.

Still, it's a start, would you like some scissors?

Then you can say to girls 'hey, it's the Jew inside that counts.... and I want that to be me.'


Might work.

i know this rabbi who doesn't charge for circumcisions, he just keeps the tips

 

[albionism]

Even if there had been a sniper in the house, which is debatable, i doubt the doctor would have had much choice in the matter.
Nothing justifies the murder of this man's daughters, or the 1000 odd other Palestinian civilians. Israel is a fucking disgrace.

 

[laptop]

But most disturbing of all was the graffiti they daubed on the walls of the ground floor. Some was in Hebrew, but much was naively written in English: "Arabs need 2 die", "Die you all", "Make war not peace", "1 is down, 999,999 to go", and scrawled on an image of a gravestone the words: "Arabs 1948-2009".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/gaza-israel-samouni-family

 

[rocketman]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/20/gaza-israel-samouni-family

Absolutely criminal. Israel is marching to the millenialist beat, attempting to create Armageddon in the Middle East, well, it's easier to say that now than it was even a few weeks ago, tinfoil hat or no..

 

[rich!]

get all Israeli

This term might be the lasting effect of what I was thinking of calling the Herod Approach To Christmas...

 

[chainsaw cat]

Does anyone have any information on the numbers of foreign soldiers serving with the IDF front line units?

I keep hearing 'my brother/cousin/friend is in the Israeli army' (can't all be the same bloke?).

I just wonder if some of these guys are a bit war tourist. I've seen it before, there were a lot of non Yugoslavs in Bosnia, fighting especially with the Serb and Bosniak forces, rumour had it they could be a bit more loony and blood crazed than their comrades.

On a similar theme, I know a lot of TA soldiers who have taken tours of Iraq and Afghanistan, intending to (excuse the language) 'slot a raghead'.

I'm pretty sure the regular soldiers in the British Army will keep a close grip of these tossers, what about the IDF if my hunch is right?

Not suggesting that the atrocities over there are down to Isaac from London or Samuel from New York, but perhaps it's a sub theme?

 

[Spion]

Does anyone have any information on the numbers of foreign soldiers serving with the IDF front line units?

I keep hearing 'my brother/cousin/friend is in the Israeli army' (can't all be the same bloke?).

I just wonder if some of these guys are a bit war tourist. I've seen it before, there were a lot of non Yugoslavs in Bosnia, fighting especially with the Serb and Bosniak forces, rumour had it they could be a bit more loony and blood crazed than their comrades.

Register for the IDF here - http://wwwDOTmahal-idf-volunteers.org/

I'd be interested in how the IDF recruits too, like who serves in what brigade etc

 

[frogwoman]

only jews allowed tho

 

[Spion]

only jews allowed tho

Don't worry, I wasn't thinking of enlisting