Gang Culture

[butchersapron]

But surely not that many years ago there were even more kids who had never seen countryside. I remember seeing stuff about the wartime evacuation of inner city kids who had never seen a cow, fields, etc. And they didn't have telly, so they genuinely had NO IDEA that this different world even existed.

I wonder if telly has been a double-edged sword, really. Because so much shit on TV re-inforces this image that having "bling" stuff = status.

That said, there are other ways of achieving status. I know a load of people from clubbing who are way younger than me, who all seem to enjoy themselves and stuff without this materialist attitude. In fact, they despise it. So do I, but if I say that, people say "well that's easy for YOU to say, you have quite a lot" etc etc.

They enjoy going out to parties, and now increasingly putting on their own parties, club nights and stuff. That gives them status, rather than showing off flash jewelry, sportswear and mobile phones and shit.

Junior jobs in my experience have always been shit and low-paid, unless you are very lucky. I worked in a succession of crap factory jobs when I was 18, 19, 20 or so, earning absolutely fuck all in terms of a "living wage". It's a stage most people have to go through, and probably always has been.

Was there ever really a time when fairly uneducated 16 year olds could walk straight into jobs paying real "grown up bloke" wages without having to fuck about earning apprentice / office junior / gofer money for a few years...?

I think not.

People have collectively backed off from asserting any kind of control, so now we have the consequences of this.

Giles..

How many houses do you now own Giles?

 

[Giles]

How many houses do you now own Giles?

I answered this question when you asked it on here earlier today. Did you not read my reply yet?

I fail to see the relevance to this thread about gangs and why people join them.

See:

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=6492701

for details.

Giles..

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Whatever the relevance of your property portfolio, Giles, there is great relevance in pointing out that you have no business complaining at anybody else's proclivity for violence when you've shown yourself to be a sadist and an advocate of executing Iraqi civilians on the grounds that they are savages. Some of your remarks on here, in the recent past and at other times, have approached psychopathy.

 

[butchersapron]

You can't see how this answer:

"Well, personally I have the house where I live in NW London, then 2 other flats in London, and one house down in Canterbury

I am part of, and work for, a company that own several more flats in London, and three shop units, and 10 places in Canterbury. The Canterbury places have mainly been fixed up for HMO rental to university students, Canterbury being a big student town."

i.e your material circumstantces might effect your perspective on this or any other given issue?

Did this include the one(s) you offloaded this week in fear of a possible house price crash btw?

 

[Gmart]

I fail to see the relevance to this thread about gangs and why people join them.

Well did you watch the documentary that stimulated it? Do you feel that their actions are not worthy of comment?

 

[Giles]

Well did you watch the documentary that stimulated it? Do you feel that their actions are not worthy of comment?

No, I was saying that I don't see that what I do, or what I own, is relevant to my opinion on the problem of people joining gangs.

Giles..

 

[Giles]

You can't see how this answer:

"Well, personally I have the house where I live in NW London, then 2 other flats in London, and one house down in Canterbury

I am part of, and work for, a company that own several more flats in London, and three shop units, and 10 places in Canterbury. The Canterbury places have mainly been fixed up for HMO rental to university students, Canterbury being a big student town."

i.e your material circumstantces might effect your perspective on this or any other given issue?

Did this include the one(s) you offloaded this week in fear of a possible house price crash btw?

I am selling places to willing buyers. No-one who just splashed out a shade over £500K for a flat in West Hampstead for their student kids to live in while at university can be regarded as any kind of oppressed victim of house price inflation, or much else, really. I wish my dad could have bought me a house while I was at college!

Giles..

 

[butchersapron]

i.e your material circumstances might effect your perspective on this or any other given issue?

 

[Das Uberdog]

To be fair, your argument is fallacious butch. Aber Giles sind einer dumm-kopf.

To be honest I think more needs to be said about the idea of 'respect' - that the only way these kids feel they can 'fit in' to society is by being 'broken in' with God knows how many increasingly standardised and inhumane government schemes, courses and social experiments, and that they have no way of living a fulfilling life without first undergoing these severe indignities. Which, as a result, makes shooting Grannies and stabbing other children seem like quite an individualistic and groovy thing to do.

No-one but a geek or someone middle-class likes authority when they're growing up.

 

[Giles]

To be fair, your argument is fallacious butch. Aber Giles sind einer dumm-kopf.

To be honest I think more needs to be said about the idea of 'respect' - that the only way these kids feel they can 'fit in' to society is by being 'broken in' with God knows how many increasingly standardised and inhumane government schemes, courses and social experiments, and that they have no way of living a fulfilling life without first undergoing these severe indignities. Which, as a result, makes shooting Grannies and stabbing other children seem like quite an individualistic and groovy thing to do.

No-one but a geek or someone middle-class likes authority when they're growing up.

All the jobs that I had from age 16 to 22 were pretty boring, low-paid and rubbish. I worked in factories making clothes, packing sheds next to farms, a Smiths Crisps factory (at least you got to eat the crisps while working!) etc. I don' t buy this stuff about people being "broken in" or subjected to "inhumane" government schemes.

Let's face it: most people's jobs aren't that much fun, but most people recognise that they have to work to earn some money.

I am sure that going out and carrying out violent muggings, whether of your fellow teenagers or old age pensioners, is more "thrilling" but this in no way justifies it.

And I have never heard people suggest that mugging is "individualistic and groovy" before!

Giles..

 

[Gmart]

Obviously you had a privileged upbringing and have succeeded. Good for you, however some were not as privileged as you, and to blame them for the lack of opportunity they got is a bit rich.

That system which you defend with such bravado, is exactly the reason why we have so many problems.

Meanwhile you seem stuck in the class war with the have's (that's you Giles) blaming the havenot's and (just as stupidly) vica versa.

You seem unable to put yourself in the shoes of these people who feel driven into gangs, and that is because you don't really respect them.

In fact you don't seem to know what the word means. (To consider someone else's opinion and to give it equal status to your own opinion)

 

[Giles]

Obviously you had a privileged upbringing and have succeeded. Good for you, however some were not as privileged as you, and to blame them for the lack of opportunity they got is a bit rich.

That system which you defend with such bravado, is exactly the reason why we have so many problems.

Meanwhile you seem stuck in the class war with the have's (that's you Giles) blaming the havenot's and (just as stupidly) vica versa.

You seem unable to put yourself in the shoes of these people who feel driven into gangs, and that is because you don't really respect them.

In fact you don't seem to know what the word means. (To consider someone else's opinion and to give it equal status to your own opinion)

I am in no way stuck in any kind of a "class war".

Most people, at whatever level, accept that you have to work in order to get paid. A minority decide that they can't be bothered with that, and that they can take a short-cut to wealth and cash to flash by going out and hurting weaker people and stealing their stuff. They are ones who don't know the meaning of the word "respect". They don't have any respect for ordinary people, although they are (sometimes) the same people who blither on about how they need to go out and stab and shoot people because they were "disrespected".

You are damn right that I don't "respect" those who join violent street-gangs. I may fear them, but I will never "respect" them.

This is not a class war between haves and have-nots: it's a war between the vast majority of people at all levels of income who live their lives normally, and a violent minority who prefer to live their lives by intimidating others.

Giles..

Giles..

 

[Gmart]

No comment on the fact that they never had a chance in the first place?

Or that you would probably have done the same thing if you were in their situation?

 

[ViolentPanda]

True but it is still a good ideal to aim at, isn't it?

So you're perfectly happy with the perpetuation of real inequality, just as long as we have the ideal of "equality of opportunity" to aim at, are you?

Wonderful.

 

[Giles]

No comment on the fact that they never had a chance in the first place?

Or that you would probably have done the same thing if you were in their situation?

I don't buy this "never had a chance" shit. What about all the other people who live in the same circumstances who DON'T choose violence and intimidation as a career? Your excusing of a bunch of young thugs because they can't immediately get good jobs is an insult to all those people who manage not to do this.

I would have sympathy for people who could honestly say that they absolutely cannot get work, or training, and because of this have to steal to survive.

But this is not the case in London today. It just isn't. If things were that bad, why would millions of young people flock to the UK from Eastern Europe etc to earn money?

Stealing may be justified in order to avoid starvation, but in order to have brand-name sportswear and a flashy mobile phone? No.

Giles..

 

[Gmart]

So you're perfectly happy with the perpetuation of real inequality, just as long as we have the ideal of "equality of opportunity" to aim at, are you?

Wonderful.

It's very difficult to avoid reality VP!

 

[ViolentPanda]

It's very difficult to avoid reality VP!

It's odd then that politicians have managed to avoid it for as long as they've been around.
"Equality of opportunity" is a phantom, a sop to be trotted out whenever people question basic inequalities: "Hey, but everyone gets the same chance".
Well no they don't, actually, because the more well-informed you are, the wider your social circle, the better you can play the system.

So why bother having a phantom for an ideal? Why not aim for equalities of outcome wherever possible, and if that means re-routing funding from the better-served to the worse-served, then so what?

 

[Giles]

It's odd then that politicians have managed to avoid it for as long as they've been around.
"Equality of opportunity" is a phantom, a sop to be trotted out whenever people question basic inequalities: "Hey, but everyone gets the same chance".
Well no they don't, actually, because the more well-informed you are, the wider your social circle, the better you can play the system.

So why bother having a phantom for an ideal? Why not aim for equalities of outcome wherever possible, and if that means re-routing funding from the better-served to the worse-served, then so what?

So, smarter and more knowledgeable people do better than average. That's human nature, you can't change it.

People are prepared to accept giving a certain amount of the result of their effort to help those who need help, but only up to a point.

Otherwise they start to think "this ain't fair! I worked hard, and got to where I am, why should I end up no better off than the guy who did fuck all?".

Giles..

 

[Blagsta]

So, smarter and more knowledgeable people do better than average. That's human nature, you can't change it.

People are prepared to accept giving a certain amount of the result of their effort to help those who need help, but only up to a point.

Otherwise they start to think "this ain't fair! I worked hard, and got to where I am, why should I end up no better off than the guy who did fuck all?".

Giles..

Class and money don't come into it then?

 

[ViolentPanda]

So, smarter and more knowledgeable people do better than average. That's human nature, you can't change it.

People are prepared to accept giving a certain amount of the result of their effort to help those who need help, but only up to a point.

Otherwise they start to think "this ain't fair! I worked hard, and got to where I am, why should I end up no better off than the guy who did fuck all?".

Giles..

As is so often the case, you miss the point.
Firstly, it isn't merely a case of "smarter and more knowledgeable people" doing better, if that were the case I doubt anyone would argue. There is also a sizeable volume of people "doing better" based purely on the basis of their social position, the social capital of their family group, and the prioritisation of upward social mobility over other concerns, so people "achieve" positions through their social networks, through "friends of friends", through "college chums", through "the old school tie" to as great a degree as they ever did.

Secondly, by giving, do you mean taxation or charity? I can't accurately reply until I know which.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Class and money don't come into it then?

Not, apparently, in Giles' world.
Back in the real world, class and money (and the connections these bestow) are, of course, a major "door-opener".

 

[detective-boy]

Back in the real world, class and money (and the connections these bestow) are, of course, a major "door-opener".

But by no means the only one, certainly in relation to a significant level of advancement. There are certain occupations where contacts are more pervasive, but a huge range where they are not to any significant extent.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But by no means the only one...

Which is, of course, why I didn't say they were the only factor, but rather a major one.

...certainly in relation to a significant level of advancement. There are certain occupations where contacts are more pervasive, but a huge range where they are not to any significant extent.

I don't disagree, but I contend that getting your foot on the first rung is probably the most important step you take, and that the first step is where the social capital is most profitably and most often deployed.

 

[detective-boy]

I don't disagree, but I contend that getting your foot on the first rung is probably the most important step you take, and that the first step is where the social capital is most profitably and most often deployed.

I'm sure that is right ... but would you say that class-related contacts are a significant issue in getting the first foot on the ladder in many areas? Which ones would you have in mind?