Gang Culture

[ViolentPanda]

ViolentPanda

A resonable term for a collective group of white people is "whites", even though their skins come in a variety of shades of pink. They are "white people" and to say "whites" is a truncated version of this.

A resonable term for a collective group of black people is "blacks", even though their skin comes in a variety of shades of brown. They are "black" people and to say "blacks" is a truncated version of this.

It is not condescending and certianly not meant to be. Sorry though if it fails your Newspeak thought-policing criteria.

Instead of indignant pedantry I would be more interested to know whether people think the contemporary media portrayal of black culture is racist and a factor in the overall problem. I think it is.

Way to miss the point in your attempts to condescend yet again.

The point is that it isn't only "Black" people who are the dupes of the stereotyping and assumptions around "black" culture, it's a significant minority of all youth.

Feel free to trot out more cant about "Newspeak thought-policing criteria" though, if it makes you feel less inadequate.

 

[agricola]

Social cohesion and a sense of being able to trust, both of which have existed to varying degrees in society, but are, under our current consumption-driven economy, barriers to the furtherance of the consumption imperative.
You end up with nowhere to turn but to nihilistic behaviour when, after being indoctrinated that your life revolves around the ability to earn and consume, you find that "the system" doesn't want you (unless you're highly educated), except as an occasional possible source of cheap labour in an economy where "unskilled" jobs hardly exist any more.

TBH I think this is a concept which probably resonates here but is not reflected by the people who form these "gangs" or identify with "gang culture".

In my experience, the vast majority are people who, as young children, see people who are considered cool/role models (both in their locality and regionally/nationally/internationally) earning / appearing to earn lots of cash for not doing a great deal, contrast it with the considerably harder and apparently less sure legal route and "plan" their lives accordingly - by the time they realise their mistake they have usually (if not by obtaining a criminal record, then by throwing away what educational oppurtunities are around for them) trashed what remains of their lives.

People arent pushed into "gang culture" because of deprivation (if they were, one could argue they would commit crimes that are less likely to result in being caught and which would have a higher financial return), they choose it because it appears cool.

 

[poster342002]

TBH I think this is a concept which probably resonates here but is not reflected by the people who form these "gangs" or identify with "gang culture".

In my experience, the vast majority are people who, as young children, see people who are considered cool/role models (both in their locality and regionally/nationally/internationally) earning / appearing to earn lots of cash for not doing a great deal, contrast it with the considerably harder and apparently less sure legal route and "plan" their lives accordingly - by the time they realise their mistake they have usually (if not by obtaining a criminal record, then by throwing away what educational oppurtunities are around for them) trashed what remains of their lives.

People arent pushed into "gang culture" because of deprivation (if they were, one could argue they would commit crimes that are less likely to result in being caught and which would have a higher financial return), they choose it because it appears cool.

I think the above may certainly be a contributory factor, but in a six-of-one, half-a-dozen-of-the-other kind of way in tandem with ViolentPanda's theory.

 

[Poi E]

People arent pushed into "gang culture" because of deprivation (if they were, one could argue they would commit crimes that are less likely to result in being caught and which would have a higher financial return), they choose it because it appears cool.

And it provides community.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Way to miss the point in your attempts to condescend yet again.

The point is that it isn't only "Black" people who are the dupes of the stereotyping and assumptions around "black" culture, it's a significant minority of all youth.

Feel free to trot out more cant about "Newspeak thought-policing criteria" though, if it makes you feel less inadequate.

Yep. The racist stereotype is knocked out to all youth definitely. In fact it is whites, sorry white people, who may actually be more into this fake aggressive culture than their black counterparts.

On the semantics I really dont want to lose the thread in a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of various linguistic terminologies. While we all need to be careful to put things sensitively, we shouldnt lose a valid point being made by putting every word and nuance under the microscope.

Thanks for the concern about my self-esteem. I dont feel too inadequate, but thanks again all the same.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

And it provides community.

Community. Identity. Protection. Possible routes to making money. Status.

Islam and football provide a lot of these things too.

While broader society generally doesnt provide these things to a great majority it is natural they will continue to look elsewhere.

One factor hugely overlooked on this thread and everywhere else is environmental. In years gone by, young people had something called
"nature" to enjoy in their leisuretime. As well as providing cheap activity and exercise the effect of this "nature" is known to be calming. But that is old fashioned innit. "progress" dictates that tarmac and concrete are preferable and make more money. So now the environment for many people ugly as sin, which definitely facilitates equally ugly behaviour.

 

[chymaera]

One factor hugely overlooked on this thread and everywhere else is environmental. In years gone by, young people had something called
"nature" to enjoy in their leisuretime. As well as providing cheap activity and exercise the effect of this "nature" is known to be calming.

Apparently a million children have never visited the countryside.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Apparently a million children have never visited the countryside.

At the back of my local Asda, next to the milk, there used to be a plastic cows head with a button to push which would make a moo sound.

I suddenly twigged that this was probably a major means of kids knowing where milk actually came from.

 

[chymaera]

At the back of my local Asda, next to the milk, there used to be a plastic cows head with a button to push which would make a moo sound.

I suddenly twigged that this was probably a major means of kids knowing where milk actually came from.

You must have missed the chicken button next to the eggs, I always press them both, drives my wife nuts.

 

[likesfish]

having looked at that caat report
the assault rifles we flogged or more likely gave to Nepal were surplus SLR's 40 year old rifles
reason we are one of the top arms sellers is we sell things like fighters and tornado's to Saudi and all the gubbins to make sure the jet fighters keep flying.
have to sell ship loads of aks even to equal the price of a tornado

so I really doubt UKs arms exports and gun crime have any bearing on each other
although if the gangsta's were armed with sa80a1 the streets would be a lot safer as they'd be broken and don't even make good clubs and the bayonets shite as well

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

so I really doubt UKs arms exports and gun crime have any bearing on each other
although if the gangsta's were armed with sa80a1 the streets would be a lot

Although there is not a direct co-relation, the hypocricy is clear for all to see, including young people.

What use is it the state condemning street violence while it lies to pursue an illegal war and attempts to arm nations like India and Pakistan even when they were on the brink of war? Its insults the intelligence.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Although there is not a direct co-relation, the hypocricy is clear for all to see, including young people.

What use is it the state condemning street violence while it lies to pursue an illegal war and attempts to arm nations like India and Pakistan even when they were on the brink of war? Its insults the intelligence.

No use to "the people", plenty of use to "the system", street violence being bad for business (resources have to be diverted to making the middle classes feel safe), while wars in faraway lands are "good for business" (in the sense of producing turnover so that at least govt subsidy to the likes of BAe is in spurts rather than a constant flow).

 

[Gmart]

Social cohesion and a sense of being able to trust, both of which have existed to varying degrees in society, but are, under our current consumption-driven economy, barriers to the furtherance of the consumption imperative.
You end up with nowhere to turn but to nihilistic behaviour when, after being indoctrinated that your life revolves around the ability to earn and consume, you find that "the system" doesn't want you (unless you're highly educated), except as an occasional possible source of cheap labour in an economy where "unskilled" jobs hardly exist any more.

I agree with the first bit, of course, good synopsis, but I refute that nihilism is the only way to turn. There are many jobs which are perfectly acceptable, where there is a demand.

The logical step is to enskill oneself, get a skill which will enable you to be a constructive part of society.

The problem with the kids getting together in Gangs is that we haven't created a society they feel part of. We try and control them, while having no interest in listening to them.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The logical step is to enskill oneself, get a skill which will enable you to be a constructive part of society..

"Just pull yourself up by the bootstraps, you kids!"

 

[detective-boy]

It is not condescending and certianly not meant to be. Sorry though if it fails your Newspeak thought-policing criteria.

It is, in that it reduces people to a single, usually irrelevant characteristic - their skin colour. Is there any reason you cannot use "black people" or "white people"?

 

[dash_two]

The reason why this country produces more yobs and gang trouble than most other European countries is probably the same reason why this country has produced more youth cults and better pop music than them, too.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree with the first bit, of course, good synopsis, but I refute that nihilism is the only way to turn. There are many jobs which are perfectly acceptable, where there is a demand.

The logical step is to enskill oneself, get a skill which will enable you to be a constructive part of society.

You show a remarkable lack of understanding of:
a) The "junior" job market and the remuneration available therein.
b) The availability of real skills training that can lead to (not, of course, guarantee) a position where remuneration might approach a level that can actually be lived on.
and
c) The influences the particular youths you're talking about are prey to.

The problem with the kids getting together in Gangs is that we haven't created a society they feel part of. We try and control them, while having no interest in listening to them.

That's not the problem at all IMHO. Children have always (as do adults) grouped together. It isn't that "we" try to control them, it's that the fact that they're insignificant "in the great scheme of things" is rubbed in their faces every time they act. Listening does nothing if what is heard isn't put to use.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Britain is a leading creator and supplier of small arms.



that is complete and utter bollocks you apparently know as much about weapons as I know about deep house I suggest if you wish to pontificate about the arms trade and the UK role in it you do some basic research Muppet

name a British pistol or Assault rifle in the last thirty years thats been an export
success
apart from accuracy international who make sniper rifles not exactly gangsta style thats our small arms industry

Spot on nice to see someone on here who actually knows what they are talking about when referring to the UK arms industry.

 

[agricola]

You show a remarkable lack of understanding of:
a) The "junior" job market and the remuneration available therein.
b) The availability of real skills training that can lead to (not, of course, guarantee) a position where remuneration might approach a level that can actually be lived on.
and
c) The influences the particular youths you're talking about are prey to.

The criticism of the "junior" job market is a nonstarter IMHO - certainly in my experience, and probably most peoples', the jobs I did as a teenager were all low paid, in a working environment not the best and incredibly dull. It was not a living-wage, but then nor was it meant to be. This is still the case now, of course - while there are a sizeable minority of youths who are behind all this trouble, one must also remember that the vast majority who do take shit jobs, study hard in school and get on in life do so successfully despite having the same, or in many cases worse, life experience up to that point.

I would also question the relevance of skills training to the debate. As I said above, when one is talking about those gangs who are behind most of the problems, the membership will nearly always have a long list of previous warnings / reprimands / youth convictions which will scare off the vast majority of employers. It is shutting the door when the horse has long since bolted.

Of course, the problem must be tackled before these youths get so many convictions - this can only happen when the entire Youth Justice system is seriously rethought, when effective and rigourous supervision, prompt and effective support and fair punishments are available for these youths when they are at the start of the process, not throwing money at problems when they have become so large they are unsolvable by any but the most draconian means.

 

[Gmart]

You show a remarkable lack of understanding of:
a) The "junior" job market and the remuneration available therein.
b) The availability of real skills training that can lead to (not, of course, guarantee) a position where remuneration might approach a level that can actually be lived on.
and
c) The influences the particular youths you're talking about are prey to.

That's not the problem at all IMHO. Children have always (as do adults) grouped together. It isn't that "we" try to control them, it's that the fact that they're insignificant "in the great scheme of things" is rubbed in their faces every time they act. Listening does nothing if what is heard isn't put to use.

As for the first, it still makes sense to enskill oneself in comparison with the alternative.

Coming to terms with one's insignificance in the grand order of things is all part of life. Rubbing it in their faces is unnecessary of course.

Your solution? Authoritarianism? Hedonism? Violence? Peace? Isolationism?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

It is, in that it reduces people to a single, usually irrelevant characteristic - their skin colour. Is there any reason you cannot use "black people" or "white people"?

Other than laziness, no. But the point was related to culture that is portrayted as being that of black people. It is a racist portrayal which is more reductionist than a quickly dashed off coment in a post. Notably, the narrow semantics about how the point was made seems to have invited more attention than the point itself.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The criticism of the "junior" job market is a nonstarter IMHO - certainly in my experience, and probably most peoples', the jobs I did as a teenager were all low paid, in a working environment not the best and incredibly dull. It was not a living-wage, but then nor was it meant to be. This is still the case now, of course - while there are a sizeable minority of youths who are behind all this trouble, one must also remember that the vast majority who do take shit jobs, study hard in school and get on in life do so successfully despite having the same, or in many cases worse, life experience up to that point.

You're missing the fact that a significant part of the "youth sector" can bypass the junior job sector simply through recourse to "further education" (you might want to talk to any further education lecturers for an insight into how the govt is using parts of the further ed system as a "holding pen" for semi-literates, the violent and the excluded), "A" levels and uni.
Those few jobs that are left (and they are few and far-between when a firm can take on a "New Deal"-subsidised adult instead) aren't enough to go round even those who want them.

I would also question the relevance of skills training to the debate. As I said above, when one is talking about those gangs who are behind most of the problems, the membership will nearly always have a long list of previous warnings / reprimands / youth convictions which will scare off the vast majority of employers. It is shutting the door when the horse has long since bolted.

With respect, your picture is partial, and you're shifting the focus from the OP's loose "gang culture" focus to specific gangs. There's a reasonable amount of evidence that shows that youth projects, training during a sentence and post-offence training all reduce re-offending. Give people something to hope for and you can at least reduce the "offenders" to a hard-core of recidivists.

Of course, the problem must be tackled before these youths get so many convictions - this can only happen when the entire Youth Justice system is seriously rethought, when effective and rigourous supervision, prompt and effective support and fair punishments are available for these youths when they are at the start of the process, not throwing money at problems when they have become so large they are unsolvable by any but the most draconian means.

As well as expediting the Child criminal justice system, we could, as a society, set a better example. Why should people hold back from lying when politicians lie all the time? Why should I refrain from hitting you over the head with a baton when I've seen police do the same thing dozens of times?

In the end, we have the criminal justice system that those with power want us to have, one where political convenience is king, the state and its' apparatus are rarely punished for wrongdoing, and the people on the bottom rung make easy targets and their oppression is an effective distraction aimed at those who believe "something must be done" as long as it doesn't affect them. So we have a penal system that does little to rehabilitate, an educational system constructed around bureaucracy rather than pedagogy, and a social infrastructure that divides people into haves and have-nots.

Expecting anything different from what we have, considering what hasn't been done to resolve problems, is a madman's dream.

 

[Gmart]

I agree VP. The longer we sweep problems under the carpet and ignore the realities of life around us, the more the system is thrown into disrepute, and without a system, where would we be?

How are we supposed to persuade the children to accede to the system, if it continually points out to them how irrelevant it is.

The same goes for the education system which seems unable to provide the youth with the tools to get through life.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Life without a system, but that wold be AnArChY!?!?!?!!!!!!

 

[brasicritique]

But what is missing from society, that pushes these potential gang members into this position?

equality and money

 

[Gmart]

Equality of opportunity?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Equality of opportunity?

Equality of opportunity is a mirage, though, there are too many institutional factors that mean that those with more social capital can benefit to a greater extent from "equality of opportunity" by playing the system.

 

[Gmart]

True but it is still a good ideal to aim at, isn't it?

 

[Giles]

At the back of my local Asda, next to the milk, there used to be a plastic cows head with a button to push which would make a moo sound.

I suddenly twigged that this was probably a major means of kids knowing where milk actually came from.

But surely not that many years ago there were even more kids who had never seen countryside. I remember seeing stuff about the wartime evacuation of inner city kids who had never seen a cow, fields, etc. And they didn't have telly, so they genuinely had NO IDEA that this different world even existed.

I wonder if telly has been a double-edged sword, really. Because so much shit on TV re-inforces this image that having "bling" stuff = status.

That said, there are other ways of achieving status. I know a load of people from clubbing who are way younger than me, who all seem to enjoy themselves and stuff without this materialist attitude. In fact, they despise it. So do I, but if I say that, people say "well that's easy for YOU to say, you have quite a lot" etc etc.

They enjoy going out to parties, and now increasingly putting on their own parties, club nights and stuff. That gives them status, rather than showing off flash jewelry, sportswear and mobile phones and shit.

Junior jobs in my experience have always been shit and low-paid, unless you are very lucky. I worked in a succession of crap factory jobs when I was 18, 19, 20 or so, earning absolutely fuck all in terms of a "living wage". It's a stage most people have to go through, and probably always has been.

Was there ever really a time when fairly uneducated 16 year olds could walk straight into jobs paying real "grown up bloke" wages without having to fuck about earning apprentice / office junior / gofer money for a few years...?

I think not.

People have collectively backed off from asserting any kind of control, so now we have the consequences of this.

Giles..

 

[Donna Ferentes]

People have collectively backed off from asserting any kind of control, so now we have the consequences of this.

Possibly we could let you kill or torture a few of them, that'd do the trick.