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Galloway leaves Respect

Fisher fuck off!

...every time Galloway fucked up SW TRIED to deal with the situation diplomatically...

Abuse does no-one any good.

What were the occasions you are talking about when Galloway "fucked up"(sic)? In relation to Big Brother, the SWP manouevred to prevent any criticism of Galloway. In relation to his letter in August 2007, much of it was valid criticism which the SWP refused to take on the chin. What were the other occasions please?

The only other occasion I can think of was when Galloway voted for the New Labour's Bill on Religious Hatred, to support state suppression of free speech. The SWP did not approach that diplomatically - they politically agreed with him, and compromised decades of a revolutionary policy towards state bans!
 
Abuse does no-one any good.

What were the occasions you are talking about when Galloway "fucked up"(sic)? In relation to Big Brother, the SWP manouevred to prevent any criticism of Galloway. In relation to his letter in August 2007, much of it was valid criticism which the SWP refused to take on the chin. What were the other occasions please?

The only other occasion I can think of was when Galloway voted for the New Labour's Bill on Religious Hatred, to support state suppression of free speech. The SWP did not approach that diplomatically - they politically agreed with him, and compromised decades of a revolutionary policy towards state bans!
:D he did nothing wrong. as you and Galloway argue, only socialist worker did things wrong.

sorry about the abuses if it offended you, but the sentiment remains the same. if you ever feel like having an honest conversation about it, may be.
 
Are you saying Nick Wrack, Alan Thornett et al are reformists?

Nick Wrack has moved from revolutionary socialism to being a bag carrier for galloway so yes the trajectory is heading rapidly towards reformism. Thornett was happy to kiss arse the SWP and now presents the ISG as the left wing of the right wing of respect if you buy the social worker line.
 
Are you saying Nick Wrack, Alan Thornett et al are reformists?

Nick Wrack has moved from revolutionary socialism to being a bag carrier for galloway so yes the trajectory is heading rapidly towards reformism. Thornett was happy to kiss arse the SWP and now presents the ISG as the left wing of the right wing of respect if you buy the social worker line.

So according to that logic, Militant were presumably reformists at the time the SWP tried to unite with them?
 
:D he did nothing wrong. as you and Galloway argue, only socialist worker did things wrong.

sorry about the abuses if it offended you, but the sentiment remains the same. if you ever feel like having an honest conversation about it, may be.

Galloway has done many things wrong - including CBB and voting for the Religious Hatred Bill. And Thornett et al made public their criticisms of these at the time. (Liam Macuaid made public his criticism of Galloway as his constituency MP for example.)

Are you going to have an "honest conversation" about the politics of this and answer this and the other posts I made? Or just continue the sheep mentality?
 
Galloway has done many things wrong - including CBB and voting for the Religious Hatred Bill. And Thornett et al made public their criticisms of these at the time. (Liam Macuaid made public his criticism of Galloway as his constituency MP for example.)

Are you going to have an "honest conversation" about the politics of this and answer this and the other posts I made? Or just continue the sheep mentality?
Fisher, I've always noticed you have an eye for detail, and that is going to bring something to the table, but it is not in my nature. I don't see things in black and white the way you do. I try to look at the big picture, not the petty disagreements about what happened between individuals, and understand the motivations and politics of that happening.

Nobody here knows the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. I've tried to look at things from both sides, speaking to both factions. Have never concealed my loyalty to SW, but there for my criticisms of SW right from Galloway's letter contradicts your tedious droning trobot sheep mentality accusation. Likewise, I have ridiculed those who have tried to suggest Galloway is just motivated by cash and his media career, by an argument which is logical and persuasive in my opinion (the Galloway legacy), so again your trobot argument is untenable. Lastly, I have hardly been involved with or read the publications of SW for several years, so how are they guiding me in what to say.

I think I have covered every question you have asked me. For example this question, if you tell me that is what happened, I have no problem believing you. If you read my comments above you will see I have already answered this question with a comment that went something like, "in Socialist Alliance and respect Socialist worker was more concerned with keeping unity with those two the right of Socialist worker". However you on the other hand have consistently left threads where I have challenged your assertion that respect renewal is a broad church accepting everybody's view with this question, "Socialist worker members have told me that respect welcomes everybody in respect renewal as part of respect including George Galloway, the reciprocal is not true is it Fisher"?

of course George Galloway is going to welcome those who accept his game plan of moving respect renewal to a popular front strategy, especially if they are a minority who can do little about it. In fact this could have been his strategy all a long, hoping by now SW would have been in a minority and he could have won the popular front strategy democratically, instead of by walking out of the coalition. Who knows? Perhaps not even George Galloway.

In the end the split of the coalition is ridiculous. Firstly, we have exactly the situation SW tried to avoid, two coalitions going for the 'same' vote. Secondly, along with Big Brother this second farce seriously erodes even further the credibility of "a left alternative to Labour".
 
... However you on the other hand have consistently left threads where I have challenged your assertion that respect renewal is a broad church accepting everybody's view with this question, "Socialist worker members have told me that respect welcomes everybody in respect renewal as part of respect including George Galloway, the reciprocal is not true is it Fisher"?
...

The SWP's conduct throughout this indicates that they are not prepared to work in a coalition in which their leadership do not call the shots.

The SWP leadership agreed to negotiations through a third party to split the organisation as amicably as possible. They insisted these negotiations were kept secret and then walked out denouncing some of the others in Respect to the capitalist media.

The solution is to recommence negotiations and then we can see what is possible. If the SWP want to go back to being in a broad Respect then I am sure that might a negotiable position, but as far as I understand it they do not - their position is that it is a left/right split and they are on the left. This is clearly not the case, but by using the terms "Galloway faction" and "reformist" interchangeably to describe everyone who supported the launch of Respect Renewal, you seem be going along with that.

If the SWP do not return to negotiations there will be no Respect candidates in elections. The SWP will have to stand as a new organisation and the farce will be over.

Those people supporting Respect Renewal wish to work in a broad coalition - SWP members are perfectly welcome in that, as are all other leftwingers. However I have no doubt that any individual SWP member wishing to do that would be expelled from the SWP for taking such action.
 
The SWP's conduct throughout this indicates that they are not prepared to work in a coalition in which their leadership do not call the shots.

The SWP leadership agreed to negotiations through a third party to split the organisation as amicably as possible. They insisted these negotiations were kept secret and then walked out denouncing some of the others in Respect to the capitalist media.

The solution is to recommence negotiations and then we can see what is possible. If the SWP want to go back to being in a broad Respect then I am sure that might a negotiable position, but as far as I understand it they do not - their position is that it is a left/right split and they are on the left. This is clearly not the case, but by using the terms "Galloway faction" and "reformist" interchangeably to describe everyone who supported the launch of Respect Renewal, you seem be going along with that.

If the SWP do not return to negotiations there will be no Respect candidates in elections. The SWP will have to stand as a new organisation and the farce will be over.

Those people supporting Respect Renewal wish to work in a broad coalition - SWP members are perfectly welcome in that, as are all other leftwingers. However I have no doubt that any individual SWP member wishing to do that would be expelled from the SWP for taking such action.
right, let's clear a few things out of the way first.

SW and myself perceive this as a right left split not based upon the constituent members of each faction, but on the strategy of each faction, okay? Do you really think I am suggesting my friend in SW who is working in Respect renewal has suddenly become a reformist? Even the Labour Party in the quote above have recognized that some of the Revolutionary groups and individuals in Respect renewal. So no one nowhere has said revolutionaries are not in the Galloway faction.

There are several members of SW in Respect renewal in my area. Everybody knows this. They will not be expelled or until there is a "crucial vote". (Don't know what this vote is, just heard about it briefly in a telephone conversation today.) I'm pretty sure it will be voted that being a member of the Galloway faction makes their position untenable in SW. Not because they are no longer revolutionaries, but because their position completely contradicts the agreed position of the party membership. I am sure you are fully aware the strictures placed upon members of a democratic is centralised organisation, are nowhere near comparable to those placed upon the members of a coalition. If the same members wanted to be a part of both Respect renewal, and Respect, no problem.

Now on the generality of your post.

I accept you honestly believe SW are not able to work in a coalition if they don't have control. All I ask of you to accept is that it is quite possible for me to hold a different opinion. Every time I put a different opinion you say I am either been dishonest or brainwashed.

The Central committee of the Galloway faction decided, without recourse to the membership, to publish instead of negotiate problems in their relationship with Socialist worker. The Central Committee of the Galloway faction decided, without recourse to the membership, that they would seize the opportunity to negotiate split, rather than negotiate unity. In fact there was never a meeting proposed by the Central committee of the Galloway faction to discuss a negotiated unity, was there? I think it is extremely evident is it not, that if Socialist worker would have accepted that split, the Central committee of the Galloway faction would too have accepted it? For a group which claims to have not been unorganised and of disparate opinions, they do seem to have been able to move with amazing speed and clarity of purpose. Right from the beginning of Respect Unity coalition, there has been many people who have predicted the self avowed Trotskyite hating Galloway would go down this path, who knows perhaps they were right.

The only thing that is on offer from Respect renewal, is a negotiated split? IF I AM WRONG HERE PLEASE! Give me some evidence of this, as I would be genuinely interested. The only evidence I can offer you at the moment is that all the SW members I have spoken to have ALL said Respect would welcome back George Galloway etc. none of the Respect renewal members have said that Respect renewal would welcome back SW. This is a key difference to me.

" The SWP's conduct throughout this indicates that they are not prepared to work in a coalition in which their leadership do not call the shots." If they ONLY wanted to work in an organisation they could control, why not remain part of the Socialist Alliance? Easily controllable. Why piss off the people they did piss off, in order to join respect in which they were convinced as Cockney points out would be much bigger, constituted mainly of those to the rights of SW, AND IT HAD SUPER EGO GALLOWAY, and so they could not possibly be in control of, if all they wanted was control? it just doesn't make sense. Come up with some political analysis, not the usual apolitical claptrap that appears on this forum "control freakery".

There are loads of other things, some of which I've already mentioned which contradict your position, IN MY HONEST UNBRAINWASHED OPINION.
 
Resistance -not going to comment on your spat with Fisher but the fall out from the Respect split with now effectively two Respects is extremely worrying.

This is becoming more clear in the GLA and London Mayor election. Is it true that SWP Respect are standing candidates against Respect Renewal in City and East London?

I won't be voting for Red Ken (not enough time to go into this) but do SWP Respect expect to get a lot of votes as this fall out gets worse? They have got to come back to the table to negotiate an end to the split.

It has been a very messy business but let us wipe the slate clean. Both sides will work with each other locally but this will get more problematical within the GLA elections unless some sort of an electoral agreement is worked out.
 
One of the political issues for the split was the insistance by Salma Yaqoob, backed by Galloway, that Respect should not stand in the mayoral elections against Livingstone. Hence the Respect Renewal decision as articulated by Galloway to put every effort into getting votes out for Ken Livingston.

Respect will be standing in the GLA elections and in the mayoral elections. It stands to reason that those in the minority split from Respect will do their own thing, which seems most likely to be to go out canvassing for the New Labour mayoral candidate. If they go ahead and stand a small number of RR candidates in key areas it will split the Respect vote.
 
Resistance -not going to comment on your spat with Fisher but the fall out from the Respect split with now effectively two Respects is extremely worrying.

This is becoming more clear in the GLA and London Mayor election. Is it true that SWP Respect are standing candidates against Respect Renewal in City and East London?

I won't be voting for Red Ken (not enough time to go into this) but do SWP Respect expect to get a lot of votes as this fall out gets worse? They have got to come back to the table to negotiate an end to the split.

It has been a very messy business but let us wipe the slate clean. Both sides will work with each other locally but this will get more problematical within the GLA elections unless some sort of an electoral agreement is worked out.
you're welcome to comment, I think thankfully it has turned away from a spat.

As firm as I understand it SW am not prepared to accept split. Could be wrong.

I completely agree this is a complete mess, and nobody should have walked until the division was sorted out if there had to be one of. To my mind we seem to be in an even worse situation now than we were when we had Socialist Alliance And Respect.
 
One of the political issues for the split was the insistance by Salma Yaqoob, backed by Galloway, that Respect should not stand in the mayoral elections against Livingstone. Hence the Respect Renewal decision as articulated by Galloway to put every effort into getting votes out for Ken Livingston.

Respect will be standing in the GLA elections and in the mayoral elections. It stands to reason that those in the minority split from Respect will do their own thing, which seems most likely to be to go out canvassing for the New Labour mayoral candidate. If they go ahead and stand a small number of RR candidates in key areas it will split the Respect vote.


I've never heard the London Mayor used as a justification for the split before. Earlier in 2007, there was a broad consensus that Lindsay German should run a campaign for mayor and that Respect should also support Livingstone against Johnson - this was one of Lindsay's first statements in April 2007, but never repeated in public until last weeks SW. There was a difference of view even then about what to do about whether Johnson became a real threat, that has now accelerated rapidly. There are no principles involved in whether to stand candidates or not, particularly where there is a left of Labour presence, it is an entirely tactical question - the SWP have opposed standing in Tulketh ward Preston this coming May against a left labour councillor, even though he voted against Lavalette's position at the last council meeting on reducing councillor's allowances (he voted to put up the Tory leader's allowance - but Lavalette will still cheer him on in the election in 12 weeks time).

The real thing that accelerated the split was the resignation of the four SWP-backed councillors in Tower Hamlets, the public denunciation through the capitalist media of the rest of the Respect group over alleged differences never raised within Respect, and the secret negotiations with the LibDems to form a joint opposition. This particular piece of treachery is now airbrushed out of SWP accounts of the split, in favour of something that became an issue well after the SWP had walked out. The latest story is that some of the "gang of four" are now trying to do a deal with New Labour on the council - a scandalous development if true.
 
...
As firm as I understand it SW am not prepared to accept split. Could be wrong.

,...

You are wrong. The SWP have 'deselected' candidates for the GLA election, originally selected by Respect, even though they remain members of Respect and have never been expelled or resigned. Their latest step is to declare that they are going to stand a candidate against the previously selected Respect candidate in GLA constituency City and East, a Newham councillor. That's acceptance by the SWP that there has been a split.
 
You are wrong. The SWP have 'deselected' candidates for the GLA election, originally selected by Respect, even though they remain members of Respect and have never been expelled or resigned. Their latest step is to declare that they are going to stand a candidate against the previously selected Respect candidate in GLA constituency City and East, a Newham councillor. That's acceptance by the SWP that there has been a split.

Did these deselected candidates still want to be on that slate?
 
Respect Renewal have publicly announced that they are standing a rival slate to the Respect slate.

They have asked others if there is interest in standing a broad based slate for the PR seats.

This is pre-existing policy of Respect and there was agreement from all sides before the split to approach the RMT about possibilities.
http://www.respectcoalition.org/index.php?ite=1581
Predictably the SWP screwed this up; Renewal are returning to the original policy position of Respect to investigate collaboration with other forces.

Renewal have not announced anything about the first-past-the-post seats other than that they are keen for the selected candidate for City and East to stand.

The SWP have assumed supporters of Renewal have "left" Respect, though they have not written to the selected candidates asking if they do not wish to stand as candidates any more. As always, procedures for doing things correctly are not the SWP's strong point.
 
I accept you honestly believe SW are not able to work in a coalition if they don't have control. All I ask of you to accept is that it is quite possible for me to hold a different opinion. Every time I put a different opinion you say I am either been dishonest or brainwashed.

.

I love your boundless optimism rpm. The evidence though seems to hint towards the SWP finding it difficult to work in coalition with others.

I think you always put forward the best possible case for the SWP. I think cos you see it as the best option for genuine social change. And i think you deserve a lot of respect for that.

But i was one of the many people on urban who suggested it was just a matter of time before RESPECT went pear shaped, just like most left alliances.

To be honest i think your a bit wasted in the SWP. But as i dont really have a better option, i respect your views.
 
You are wrong. The SWP have 'deselected' candidates for the GLA election, originally selected by Respect, even though they remain members of Respect and have never been expelled or resigned. Their latest step is to declare that they are going to stand a candidate against the previously selected Respect candidate in GLA constituency City and East, a Newham councillor. That's acceptance by the SWP that there has been a split.

So once again fg, no acceptance of were i've corrected you, and no answers to questions.:rolleyes: ffs
 
FG doesn't have the ability to answer questions - but will probably appear on Blue Peter soon; as there are not many Parrots that can type:p
 
I think I've answered your questions.
:D highlighted for hard of reading. is the questions, and blue are the points of clarification you need to accept or refute.

right, let's clear a few things out of the way first.

what Do you really think I am suggesting my friend in SW who is working in Respect renewal has suddenly become a reformist? Even the Labour Party in the quote above have recognized that some of the Revolutionary groups and individuals in Respect renewal. So no one nowhere has said revolutionaries are not in the Galloway faction.

There are several members of SW in Respect renewal in my area. Everybody knows this. They will not be expelled or until there is a "crucial vote". (Don't know what this vote is, just heard about it briefly in a telephone conversation today.) I'm pretty sure it will be voted that being a member of the Galloway faction makes their position untenable in SW. Not because they are no longer revolutionaries, but because their position completely contradicts the agreed position of the party membership. I am sure you are fully aware the strictures placed upon members of a democratic is centralised organisation, are nowhere near comparable to those placed upon the members of a coalition. If the same members wanted to be a part of both Respect renewal, and Respect, no problem.

Now on the generality of your post.

I accept you honestly believe SW are not able to work in a coalition if they don't have control. All I ask of you to accept is that it is quite possible for me to hold a different opinion. Every time I put a different opinion you say I am either been dishonest or brainwashed.

The Central committee of the Galloway faction decided, without recourse to the membership, to publish instead of negotiate problems in their relationship with Socialist worker. The Central Committee of the Galloway faction decided, without recourse to the membership, that they would seize the opportunity to negotiate split, rather than negotiate unity. In fact there was never a meeting proposed by the Central committee of the Galloway faction to discuss a negotiated unity, was there? I think it is extremely evident is it not, that if Socialist worker would have accepted that split, the Central committee of the Galloway faction would too have accepted it? For a group which claims to have not been unorganised and of disparate opinions, they do seem to have been able to move with amazing speed and clarity of purpose. Right from the beginning of Respect Unity coalition, there has been many people who have predicted the self avowed Trotskyite hating Galloway would go down this path, who knows perhaps they were right.

The only thing that is on offer from Respect renewal, is a negotiated split? IF I AM WRONG HERE PLEASE! Give me some evidence of this, as I would be genuinely interested. The only evidence I can offer you at the moment is that all the SW members I have spoken to have ALL said Respect would welcome back George Galloway etc. none of the Respect renewal members have said that Respect renewal would welcome back SW. This is a key difference to me.

" The SWP's conduct throughout this indicates that they are not prepared to work in a coalition in which their leadership do not call the shots." If they ONLY wanted to work in an organisation they could control, why not remain part of the Socialist Alliance? Easily controllable. Why piss off the people they did piss off, in order to join respect in which they were convinced as Cockney points out would be much bigger, constituted mainly of those to the rights of SW, AND IT HAD SUPER EGO GALLOWAY, and so they could not possibly be in control of, if all they wanted was control? it just doesn't make sense. Come up with some political analysis, not the usual apolitical claptrap that appears on this forum "control freakery".

There are loads of other things, some of which I've already mentioned which contradict your position, IN MY HONEST UNBRAINWASHED OPINION.
 
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