Gair Rhydd published *those* cartoons?
- Thread starter Col_Buendia
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neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Udo Erasmus said:
Fine by me but you are guilty of bad faith here as you did in fact compare Solidarnosc, a mass WORKERS Movement, with Otpor! a small Soros Foundation fainanced student movement. The point goes to both program and agency.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Udo Erasmus said:
It's interesting that Udo ends with a quote from Niemoller that talks of the Nazis persecuting various groups until there was nobody left to speak for him. It shows a complete and utter inability to distinguish between a fascist state based on genocide and a few objectionabole cartoons.
Which rather places udo's statement concerning the rise in attacks on muslims in some sort of perspective I would hope. Suffice to say that no Muslims have been murdered, no Mosques burnt ot the ground and the objectionable cartoons threaten no one but the easily offended clerico-fascists of Al-Gharouba and the MAB reactionaries whom Udo is allied with.
Udo repeats himself in saying that the cartoons are racist but this point is not in dispute he also claims that I "state that the left should stay silent" but provides no citation for this statement for the good reason that I have made no such statement. In short Udo is reduced to a common lie to bolster his position of reliance on the bourgeois state.
Udo again lies when he claims that he wrote "that nobody on this thread has called for a state ban" yet in post no 107 the words "on this thread" do not appear. Rather silly to falsify one's own position when it is so easily checked on but thats centrism for you I suppose.
And heres another lie from Udo "Socialist's don't oppose laws that defend women against sexism - but Neprimerimye does." Again no citation, no proof simply an assertion that is nothing but a lie. For the record I'm totally in favour of abolishing anti-union laws which impede unions defending the rights of our sisters.
As if lying were not enough for him the usually intelligent Udo resorts to gross stupidity in claiming that I, and Osterburg, oppose the Equal Pay Act and other pieces of legislation won by the workers movement in the past. Again no proof or citation just an empty assertion.
What Udo does not understand is that the revolutionary left does not support legislation which limits the freedom of the workers movement to express itself or generally limits the freedom of all of the citizenry. We oppose legislation such as the race Relations Act for this reason although for purely tactical reasons we do not call for their repeal. This I should point out is the stance adopted y revolutionaries when this Act was first introduced in contrast to the support of 'the left' that is the reformist and Labour Party left which supported this anti-democratic legislation.
Now Udo tells us that the propsed legislation will not be used against the likes of Rushdie but only against Nazis like Griffin. Apart from a rather touching naive belief in the impartiality of the state this is completely wrong headed. For the good reaqson that the legislation could be used to bring a private prosecution of Rushdie which would probably be successful given that Rushdies novel is insulting towards Islam as anyone who has read his over rated pablum will know. But for Udo the bourgeois courts are to be trrusted in this matter.
here is the nub of the matter really. Udo knows that the state is the instrument of the bourgeoisie and therefore reactionary. Thus 'the left' opposes state bans on fascists but does not oppose limitations on free speech? Actually as i have mentioned the revoltionary left did oppose limitations on free speech when the Race Relations Act was first introduced we did not campaign against it nor do we call for its repeal for tactical reasons. But this does not mean for a minute that we support or advocate such curbs on free speech as does Udo.
The problem is that Udo is pulled between his formal adherence to Marxism and his membership of Respect the populist alliance. And the MAB constituent of espect support and campaign for limits on free speech as a result of which udo and the SWP gag themselves and fail to put a principled position forward. In order to bolster his position then Udo talks of 'the left' rather than refer to Marxism, he talks of 'the people' not the workers movement and generally negates his own avowed politics. And all this for a few crappy cartoons not even published in this country by any paper with a circulation larger than that of Socialist Worker.
Udo Erasmus said:
But the Incitement to Religious Hatred thing is not a reform but a piece of New Labour spin.
Don't be daft.The equal pay act was something that had to be fought for.
It wasn't a badly thought out attack on civil liberties.
Yes, the cartoons are racist.Does that mean we have to support the state attacking our freedom of speech?
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
osterberg said:
No its not. The entire purpose of that badly attended rally was to support the introduction of the Religious Hatred bill which you rightly label as Nu Labour spin.
Curious that the only lefties to attend were the SWP and Socialist Action. The George Galloway and Ken Livingstone fanclubs. Urghh!
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
osterberg said:Well the Lenin's tomb thing says it was against islamophobia and the bill is hardly mentioned . But I'm sure you know better having not been there.
Quite how a demonstration can combat Islamophobia, an ideological construct, evades me will someone please explain the thinking behind this. Unless of course the intention is to back the Religious Hatred Bill which can then be used to prosecute not only racists who abuse the religious beliefs of others but anybody who dares to criticise the superstitious nonsense that is Islam and indeed anay and all religions under the cloak of 'fighting Islamophobia'.
The only groups at the demonstration all support the Religious Hatred Bill from the Muslim Association of Britain (founded by the Muslim Brotherhood described by Tony Cliff as clerico-fascist), Respect the populist alliance whose MP Kitty Galloway supports the Bill and Socialist Action who back Ken Livingstone who supports the Bill.
Coincidence?
RubberBuccaneer
Hedd Wyn
Any chance of the contibutors to this thread stating their political leanings?
I'll try and re-read it then to see if I can follow it.
Cheers
I'll try and re-read it then to see if I can follow it.
Cheers
RubberBuccaneer
Hedd Wyn
llantwit said:
Let it not be said we are a nation of windbags......where was that Welsh characteristics one again
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
RubberBuccaneer said:
It won't help.
Chilango - Anarchist of some kind with experience of Political Islamist atrocities in southern Sudan. In other words a liberal. (X-SWP)
Nwnm - SWP fulltimer.
Udo Erasmus - Nwnm's more intelligent sidekick
Osterburg - socialist ex-member of a pabloite group (a guess)
Neprimerimye - Communist
Col_Buendia
sort code
neprimerimye said:
What about the OP you fucking discriminationist!!
RubberBuccaneer
Hedd Wyn
What's a pabloite?
chilango
Ha! Ha! Armageddon
neprimerimye said:
liberal? there you go. predictable righteous indignation.
I dunno how my views fit into "liberal" though? explain nep...
also souldn´t you be "communist" not "Communist".
anyway short summary of my position.
1/ against state bans, fullstop.
2/ for selforganised opposition to racism etc from below.
3/ against wanky journos
4/ against clericofascist islamicism and its hangers on.
there.
Col_Buendia
sort code
RubberBuccaneer said:
The bloke in the shorts at the back is a Pabloite.
I'm sure that clears things up for you, RB.
(Here to help)RubberBuccaneer
Hedd Wyn
Ah, a wishing I could do that sort of person, always the bridesmaid never the bride
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
Col_Buendia said:The bloke in the shorts at the back is a Pabloite.
I'm sure that clears things up for you, RB.
And help you did! Now Picasso was a Stalinist and the guy in the back is his toady tailing behind him.
Thats what Pabloites do they tail end other social forces.
Technically it refers to the epigonii who destroyed the Fourth International in 1948. Pablo being one of the leaders of the day.
neprimerimye
Well-Known Member
chilango said:
OK good enough but point 4 is dodgy.
After all said and done despite their socially reactionary program the Muslim Association of Britain, which is the creation of a group that was clerico-fascist, is not itself fascist.
While I find the idea of an avowedly revolutionary tendency such as the SWP forming a common party with them deeply objectionable I have no objections to their taking part in the anti war movement.
Here you are.Pablo's in there somewhere.RubberBuccaneer said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_International
By the way he's nothing to do with me
RubberBuccaneer
Hedd Wyn
Were the SWP ever called th Trotskyite Workers Party ( TWP ) at one stage?
Getting back onto topic, this motion was passed at the Cardiff students union AGM on Wednesday Titled 'Freedom of Speech and Responsibility' stating,
"This union notes -
1) the appearance of cartoons in a recent edition of Gair Rhydd , which was reproduced from a Danish right wing newspaper , and were perceived as offensive to the Muslim faith.
2) that previous publication of these cartoons had led to world wide protests and rioting
3) The withdrawal of that edition of Gair Rhydd from the news stands.
This union believes -
1) that the students union was right to withdraw Gair Rhydd over this. We should be proud that of the fact that the University is a campus where people of many faiths work and study together.
2) that the wording of the article itself did not mock Islamic beliefs - it is the Danish cartoon which is seen as offensive.
3) that the right wing Danish newspaper that commissioned these anti Muslim Caricatures has previously campaigned against an artist who produced and ‘erotic’ image of Christ, and also previously refused to print a cartoon , on the basis that it would cause an outcry among Christians. It has only invoked ‘freedom of speech’ to justify bigoted caricatures that imply every Muslim is a terrorist.
4) whilst we agree with the concept of free speech, this has to come with responsibility where ther are sensitive issues. Gair Rhydd as the newspaper of Cardiff University should be promoting tolerance amongst students.
This union resolves -
1) to call on Gair Rhydd to publish an open letter which has already been signed by a large number of students.
2) to ensure that, if it has not already happened , Gair Rhydd publishes a full apology to the students of Cardiff for this episode, and that it represents the diversity of our campus.
3) re-affirms our commitment to anti racism, diversity and equality for all"
The open letter reads -
"We the undersigned believe the Students union was right to withdraw Gair Rhydd from the news stands over its publication of one of the Danish
anti Muslim cartoons. We should be proud of the fact that Cardiff university is a campus whee people of many faiths work and study together; with more than 3,000 international students. Neither should we be fooled into thinking that this is an issue of free speech - it is about Islamophobia and racism.
The right wing Danish newspaper which commissioned these anti Muslim caricatures are such 'champions' of free speech, that they campaigned against an artist who had produced an erotic image of Christ, and refused to print a cartoon 3 years ago because the editors said it would provoke an outcry among Christians. Freedom of speech was only invoked to justify bigoted caricatures that imply every Muslim is a terrorist.
There is only one word for the sort of hypocrisy which sees one rule for the majority and another for Arab, Asian and African Immigrants - racism. Those who claim it is impossible to be racist against Islam because it is a religion 'not a race' should consider the fate of the Jewish fate in Nazi Germany. If a paper were to reprint a cartoon of a Jewish person in the manner of Nazi propoganda of the 1930's everyone would slam it as racist.
Nobody would say it was merely about 'debating religious views'. This anti Muslim racism has been stoked up by war in the Middle East and is the subtext of George Bushes 'war on terror'.
We call on Gair Rhydd to issue a public apology to the student population of Cardiff university for dragging our name in the mud, to publish this letter. and to commission articles on Islamophobia, and the effect of the war on terror on the Muslim community instead of scuttling around in the gutter like the tabloid press"
The suspended editor has also apologised, "The reproduction of one of the controversial cartoons of the prophet Mohammed in our most recent edition was a naive and ill-considered course of action which caused needless offence to Muslim students and members of the community alike.
"The cartoon was not reproduced as part of some frivolous defence of freedom of speech, but was a genuine mistake on our part which arose from a desire to give context to a small and balanced world news piece reporting the developing international situation surrounding the cartoons.
"We apologise for the harm we recognise we have caused."
"This union notes -
1) the appearance of cartoons in a recent edition of Gair Rhydd , which was reproduced from a Danish right wing newspaper , and were perceived as offensive to the Muslim faith.
2) that previous publication of these cartoons had led to world wide protests and rioting
3) The withdrawal of that edition of Gair Rhydd from the news stands.
This union believes -
1) that the students union was right to withdraw Gair Rhydd over this. We should be proud that of the fact that the University is a campus where people of many faiths work and study together.
2) that the wording of the article itself did not mock Islamic beliefs - it is the Danish cartoon which is seen as offensive.
3) that the right wing Danish newspaper that commissioned these anti Muslim Caricatures has previously campaigned against an artist who produced and ‘erotic’ image of Christ, and also previously refused to print a cartoon , on the basis that it would cause an outcry among Christians. It has only invoked ‘freedom of speech’ to justify bigoted caricatures that imply every Muslim is a terrorist.
4) whilst we agree with the concept of free speech, this has to come with responsibility where ther are sensitive issues. Gair Rhydd as the newspaper of Cardiff University should be promoting tolerance amongst students.
This union resolves -
1) to call on Gair Rhydd to publish an open letter which has already been signed by a large number of students.
2) to ensure that, if it has not already happened , Gair Rhydd publishes a full apology to the students of Cardiff for this episode, and that it represents the diversity of our campus.
3) re-affirms our commitment to anti racism, diversity and equality for all"
The open letter reads -
"We the undersigned believe the Students union was right to withdraw Gair Rhydd from the news stands over its publication of one of the Danish
anti Muslim cartoons. We should be proud of the fact that Cardiff university is a campus whee people of many faiths work and study together; with more than 3,000 international students. Neither should we be fooled into thinking that this is an issue of free speech - it is about Islamophobia and racism.
The right wing Danish newspaper which commissioned these anti Muslim caricatures are such 'champions' of free speech, that they campaigned against an artist who had produced an erotic image of Christ, and refused to print a cartoon 3 years ago because the editors said it would provoke an outcry among Christians. Freedom of speech was only invoked to justify bigoted caricatures that imply every Muslim is a terrorist.
There is only one word for the sort of hypocrisy which sees one rule for the majority and another for Arab, Asian and African Immigrants - racism. Those who claim it is impossible to be racist against Islam because it is a religion 'not a race' should consider the fate of the Jewish fate in Nazi Germany. If a paper were to reprint a cartoon of a Jewish person in the manner of Nazi propoganda of the 1930's everyone would slam it as racist.
Nobody would say it was merely about 'debating religious views'. This anti Muslim racism has been stoked up by war in the Middle East and is the subtext of George Bushes 'war on terror'.
We call on Gair Rhydd to issue a public apology to the student population of Cardiff university for dragging our name in the mud, to publish this letter. and to commission articles on Islamophobia, and the effect of the war on terror on the Muslim community instead of scuttling around in the gutter like the tabloid press"
The suspended editor has also apologised, "The reproduction of one of the controversial cartoons of the prophet Mohammed in our most recent edition was a naive and ill-considered course of action which caused needless offence to Muslim students and members of the community alike.
"The cartoon was not reproduced as part of some frivolous defence of freedom of speech, but was a genuine mistake on our part which arose from a desire to give context to a small and balanced world news piece reporting the developing international situation surrounding the cartoons.
"We apologise for the harm we recognise we have caused."
