G20, RBS and violence.

[SpookyFrank]

Violence against property is not violence.

Hitting people with metal poles, that's violence. Violence that comes with a price tag of a respectable amount of jail time when perpetrated by mere mortals.

 

[Crispy]

Unfortunately, your opinion is not the common one.

 

[quimcunx]

Violence against property is not violence.

Yes it is. You might not want it to be, but it is.

 

[Dowie]

I wouldn't be surprised if the "protestors" who smashed the window worked for the banks and did this to get the news attention away from the protestors message . Which they have been doing very well in the run up to as well with all the reports of "bankers have to wear their own clothes to work" type shit they have been spreading !

erm I think you're drifting way to far into the realms of conspiracy theories there

Police being a bit naive and leaving it unboarded so they could place people inside to monitor the protests through the one way glass would be more likely

Or if you're more anti police then I guess the police deliberately leaving it unboarded as some sort of distraction/sacrifice type target (it wasn't an important building yet had "RBS" stamped on it so would attract the plebs who like to trash things) would also be plausible - or as some have suggested leaving it unprotected as an excuse to kick off at the demonstrators (IMO also a bit far fetched as I don't believe their senior management want it to all kick off despite some of the officers on the ground perhaps being up for a ruck)

Either way I think the people who did it and the idiots at bank who started attacking police lines early in the day before they even got the riot gear on or had really done much to the protesters certainly helped to ruin the protests for the large majority.

 

[purplex]

These actions may prove to be a watershed in what amount of police brutality is acceptable to the public. Maybe thats wishful thinking on my part.

 

[quimcunx]

These actions may prove to be a watershed in what amount of police brutality is acceptable to the public. Maybe thats wishful thinking on my part.

Unfortunately it probably is. Someone up the boards said their workmates were privy to some of the stuff that happened as bystanders and were truly shocked. They'll tell their friends but I doubt there will be the media coverage or any watershed.

 

[danny la rouge]

Unfortunately it probably is. Someone up the boards said their workmates were privy to some of the stuff that happened as bystanders and were truly shocked. They'll tell their friends but I doubt there will be the media coverage or any watershed.

Sadly, I think that's true. This is the usual pattern.

 

[Fruitloop]

Yes it is. You might not want it to be, but it is.

Where are you getting this information from? Is it defined in law somewhere?

 

[cesare]

http://www.climatecamp.org.uk//node/552

https://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/993

Email the information and links to the decent media. I've sent it to the BBC, don't know if it'll get past the Have Your Say vetting team, but if enough people do it, it just might raise it in their consciousness.

 

[quimcunx]

Where are you getting this information from? Is it defined in law somewhere?

http://www.answers.com/topic/violence

http://www.who.int/violenceprevention/approach/definition/en/index.html

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/violence

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O86-violence.html

http://www.yourdictionary.com/violence

Show me where any of these exclude damage to property from the definition of violence.


''My ex-husband would furiously beat on the door for hours demanding I let him in, he was never violent though.'' ???

 

[Fruitloop]

And if he had beat on the door while you were out, that would still be violence? Towards the door?

 

[quimcunx]

And if he had beat on the door while you were out, that would still be violence? Towards the door?

Yes. Did you read the links to definitions of the word violence I gave you?

At all?

 

[Fruitloop]

Yeah, I particularly liked this one:

Definition and typology of violence
VPA addresses the problem of violence as defined in the World report on violence and health (WRVH), namely:

"the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation."

http://www.who.int/violenceprevention/approach/definition/en/index.html

 

[hipipol]

that either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation."
Which is why collective punishments like pulling peoples houses down are generally regarded as violent acts

 

[Blagsta]

Yes. Did you read the links to definitions of the word violence I gave you?

At all?

How can you be violent towards a door?

 

[Fruitloop]

Or the property of a corporation, since a corporation legally is an entity but not a person or group of persons?

 

[quimcunx]

Yeah, I particularly liked this one:



http://www.who.int/violenceprevention/approach/definition/en/index.html

You seem to like these a litte less:

: intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force <the violence of the storm> b: vehement feeling or expression

physical force used so as to injure, damage, or destroy; extreme roughness of action

 

[Fruitloop]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropomorphism

 

[smokedout]

The riotous behaviour at the BoE eclipsed the Non-Violent Civil Disobedience of the Climate Camp.

If all protestors had used Non-violent Civil Disobedience, then it would have been a different story in today's newspapers. There would have been photos of NVDA protestors being batoned in the south perimeter of the Climate Camp instead. The Public would have had a different impression. Instead, they remain alienated from the movement by violence.

can you give an example of meaningful political change occurring without violence being involved in some shape or form

 

[Crispy]

Ghandi or am I being simple?

 

[smokedout]

India had a strong and violent resistance movement along with Ghandi

 

[Crispy]

Thought it'd be complicated

 

[_pH_]

^This, except it provided a reason for the police to get their riot gear - they weren't 'riot police' until after RBS

not quite how i remember it.

they turned in to riot police after that small group of unprotected city police got a bit of a tonking and they retreated to just past the junction that RBS was on the corner of. there were small shielded riot police in line before RBS got smashed and the mounted police were at the bottom of the street as it all happened.

i'd agree with Dan U on this

 

[_pH_]

I agree. Climate Campers behaved impeccably.

but i agree with you here tangentlama

 

[smokedout]

I agree. Climate Campers behaved impeccably.

maybe, but the police allowed the camp to be set up with only a brief bit of token resistance from city plod

if theyd had to face the same level of policing and aggression that everyone else did, even before RBS then theres no way that they would have had their camp at all

so all the sniffy climate campers, some of whom were being very judgemental about the rest of us, and showed little in the spirit of solidarity, couldnt have had their event without the threat of violence down the road meaning the police didnt have the resources to stop the camp happening

i dont think thats a bad thing, i think a mix of targeted violence and nvda is probably the best strategy for a political movement - but i do not think that people should be judgemental about how others choose to express their resistance and when we're on the streets solidarity should be unconditional

 

[Corax]

i dont think thats a bad thing, i think a mix of targeted violence and nvda is probably the best strategy for a political movement

I'm with you on that one, as long as we're talking violence against property, not people.

 

[_pH_]

so all the sniffy climate campers, some of whom were being very judgemental about the rest of us, and showed little in the spirit of solidarity

in what way

 

[smokedout]

well, i heard reports that they were sending out twitter messages saying come to our event if you dont want violence

but, more importantly, one of the organisers of the camp was on the outside of the kettle where there was a largely peaceful, bar the odd plastic bottle, but very spiky in mood presence until around 11.30 when police violently cleared the area

the camp organiser stood in front of the police line, effectively trying to use herself as a human shield protecting the police and started to harangue the very people who helped ensure the camp lasted as long as it did, about throwing bottles and how the police should be protected

although tbf the look on her face did change as the filth repeatedly violently attacked sit down peaceful protesters

 

[smokedout]

there were also a couple of arrests very early on just after the camp was set up - there was little clear reason for the arrests, but any solidarity or resistance to this from the climate campers was non-existent

 

[_pH_]

I dunno what to make of that, not having seen the events you describe or having seen the twitter messages (link?)

I got the text alert from climate camp, nothing in there about 'come to our event if you don't want violence'. But then again even if there had been, it may have been along the lines of 'if you're worried about having your head caved in by the police at BoE then come up to bishopsgate, it's peaceful here'.

Also, even if the organiser was doing what you see, i'm not sure it could be described as 'haranguing'?? Just a pleas for everyone to stay calm?