G20, RBS and violence.

[tangentlama]

This is true to some extent, but it doesn't let the police off the hook. Their action at the camp was completely disproportionate.

I agree. Climate Campers behaved impeccably.

 

[Crispy]

I agree. Climate Campers behaved impeccably.

And as a result, got zero press.

 

[tangentlama]

And as a result, got zero press.

The riotous behaviour at the BoE eclipsed the Non-Violent Civil Disobedience of the Climate Camp.

If all protestors had used Non-violent Civil Disobedience, then it would have been a different story in today's newspapers. There would have been photos of NVDA protestors being batoned in the south perimeter of the Climate Camp instead. The Public would have had a different impression. Instead, they remain alienated from the movement by violence.

 

[Fruitloop]

Not all publicity is good publicity. In fact as far as mainstream media is concerned, the vast majority of it is bad.

 

[quimcunx]

I don't think derf is trying to highlight the violence, rather ask the question"was it counter-productive" - to which my answer is a big fat YES.

Agreed.

There was one group there bent on aggression and violence from the start; the police. I unequivocally condemn that violence.

Possibly some of them but by no means all, just as some protestors would have turned up bent on trouble, but by no means all.

 

[Crispy]

And 'no publicity' defeats the point. My suspicion is that if the protest had passed off peacefully with no incident, the front pages would not be "Happy hippies hand out flowers to smiling cops in sunny city sit-in" but "World leaders arrive in london for big pow-wow"

Someone beat the cynic out of me with a metal baton

 

[Spion]

Instead, they remain alienated from the movement by violence.

IMO that's not the only or even the main reason that most people don't connect with this movement, which is de facto a vanguard unconnected to the bulk of people. And the reason it is unconnected is that it lacks a practical programme of action that can link the nastiness of the banks, climate change issues, war etc to the lives of the bulk of people who are doing shitty, 'flexible' jobs or have no job or are struggling to pay a mortgage/being repossesed etc.

 

[Spion]

And 'no publicity' defeats the point. My suspicion is that if the protest had passed off peacefully with no incident, the front pages would not be "Happy hippies hand out flowers to smiling cops in sunny city sit-in" but "World leaders arrive in london for big pow-wow"

Which is what the bulk of the news is anyway isn;t it? There are 20-odd leaders of government here trying to sort out the biggest shitstorm in the world economy for decades, with the threat of breaking up the globalised financial system a real possibility.

The protests are small beer really

 

[Citizen66]

I don't think derf is trying to highlight the violence, rather ask the question"was it counter-productive" - to which my answer is a big fat YES.

But hilarious, none the less.

 

[danny la rouge]

Possibly some of them but by no means all

So, just the ones who came up with the tactic of hemming people in? Or just the ones batoning people who were minding their own business?

Yes, there were some broken windows, but what's worse? Broken windows or broken heads?

 

[Cressi]

The police used stainless steel telescopic batons.....whacking them on un protected skulls. The steel splits/tears the skin.

We cleaned up + patched up 2 young lads who were later allowed out to go to hospital. One lad had 3 cuts on his head meaning 2 blows to the head + one across the face.

The Police should not be armed with such dangerous weapons. If they must beat people with batons why not use rubber/plastic types that cause less damage .

 

[tangentlama]

IMO that's not the only or even the main reason that most people don't connect with this movement, which is de facto a vanguard unconnected to the bulk of people. And the reason it is unconnected is that it lacks a practical programme of action that can link the nastiness of the banks, climate change issues, war etc to the lives of the bulk of people who are doing shitty, 'flexible' jobs or have no job or are struggling to pay a mortgage/being repossesed etc.

Hence why my opinions of that so-called Anthropology Adjunct Professor are incredibly negative. He ought to have understood the process - instead, he acted like a schoolboy situationist without forethought for the whole body of the People that this crisis affects. He won't get his job back, imo.

 

[editor]

I don't believe that was the case. Some, albeit a small minority of the protestors, will have viewed these protests as a means to clash with the police and will have been planning, in advance, a ruck with them.

For sure, But they were easily identifiable and they weren't at the Climate Camp. What happened there was a fucking disgrace.

 

[quimcunx]

And 'no publicity' defeats the point. My suspicion is that if the protest had passed off peacefully with no incident, the front pages would not be "Happy hippies hand out flowers to smiling cops in sunny city sit-in" but "World leaders arrive in london for big pow-wow"

Someone beat the cynic out of me with a metal baton

Maybe not for this one because of all the speculation about violence beforehand, but 4 or 5 peaceful, incident-free protests down the road...

Violent protest is fucked up.
Police responses are fucked up.
Media coverage is fucked up. And they're all caught in a vicious circle.

 

[danny la rouge]

Violent protest is fucked up.
Police responses are fucked up.

Were the police definitely "responding"? And what is more violent - breaking a window or breaking a head?

 

[quimcunx]

So, just the ones who came up with the tactic of hemming people in? Or just the ones batoning people who were minding their own business?

Yes, there were some broken windows, but what's worse? Broken windows or broken heads?

Were the police definitely "responding"? And what is more violent - breaking a window or breaking a head?

You're repeating yourself, Danny.

I'm not defending the police. I don't agree with penning protestors in, they attempted to pen me in at a Palestine demo in January and I didn't like it one bit; and from what I've heard of events yesterday their behaviour both tactically and reactionary was unnecessary. I can't comment much on their motivation as I am not privy to their policies. I'm not going to agree with a suggestion that all police officers, as a group, and without exception are looking for a ruck and all protestors without exception are looking to avoid one.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not going to agree with a suggestion that all police officers, as a group, and without exception are looking for a ruck and all protestors without exception are looking to avoid one.

It isn't an allegation I made, though.

 

[Zachor]

1) non-violence works, for example, the Bi'lin protests in Palestine-Israel held jointly by Israeli-Palestinian Jews and Arabs. search the Middle East forum on my posts there on the non-violence movement.
2) Best reason to do it - it leaves only the authorities as the ones meting out the violence. Agent provocateurs and random violence starters can be rooted out easier this way. We live in Britain, not Israel-Palestine. We need to build public support, at this early stage, all is not lost, but it could be lost in future if violent acts against persons or property continue. Non-violent demos will encourage others who might not join in to join in. If people think they're going to get hurt, either by acts of other protestors or by police, they won't join us and we lose.
3) Don't confuse non-violence with being against civil disobedience, e.g. squatting, sit-downs, repeated marches/demos to keep issue in news. Throwing missiles which might injure someone on the demo or even the police is potentially going to hurt someone and therefore violent.
4) with non-violence, money is needed to fight ineveitable court cases - see Anarchists against the Wall website for news of how long a fight needs to be kept running. It took 2 years to get the Bi'lin demo - held every week by - before Channel 4 news did a long piece on the issues.

By non-violence, I mean no throwing any missiles, smoke bombs. No point really in destroying property - private or public, but fine to dismantle illegal walls/fences (see Bi'ilin protests - where farmers cut off from their lands and denied access via checkpoints despite court orders saying farmers must be allowed access)
By civil disobedience I mean disregarding demands by authorities and demonstrating regardless, keeping spirits high, and getting articulate messages across via all media at disposal.

Good post.

 

[Zachor]

IMO that's not the only or even the main reason that most people don't connect with this movement, which is de facto a vanguard unconnected to the bulk of people. And the reason it is unconnected is that it lacks a practical programme of action that can link the nastiness of the banks, climate change issues, war etc to the lives of the bulk of people who are doing shitty, 'flexible' jobs or have no job or are struggling to pay a mortgage/being repossesed etc.

Spion I have disagreed with you many a time on here over various issues but on this point I agree to a certain extent with you.

The average bod/worker (who is calling the protestors wankers as I speak) doesn't identify with the causes of the protestors as they do not seem relevant and the alternatives offered do not seem practical.

If the 'alternatives to angloamerican captialism' want to appeal beyond those who just want a punch up or middle class ex hippies then they must work to make this alternative relevant.

 

[danny la rouge]

I'm not defending the police.

No, I'm not accusing you of that.

However, I'm merely pointing out that what we got in this morning's tabloids and news bulletins omitted scenes like these:

And:

https://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/993

 

[paolo]

And as a result, got zero press.

I'd challenge that. News24 were still covering them live last night, long after the smashy thing had finished.

I'm with Tangentlama on this one.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The police used stainless steel telescopic batons.....whacking them on un protected skulls. The steel splits/tears the skin.

The batons are "Asps".

We cleaned up + patched up 2 young lads who were later allowed out to go to hospital. One lad had 3 cuts on his head meaning 2 blows to the head + one across the face.

The Police should not be armed with such dangerous weapons. If they must beat people with batons why not use rubber/plastic types that cause less damage .

The police use asps because they're more portable, and they concentrate their force into a smaller area. It's supposedly all about "putting down" a crim/protester/innocent person with a single blow rather than several.

 

[ViolentPanda]

IMO that's not the only or even the main reason that most people don't connect with this movement, which is de facto a vanguard unconnected to the bulk of people. And the reason it is unconnected is that it lacks a practical programme of action that can link the nastiness of the banks, climate change issues, war etc to the lives of the bulk of people who are doing shitty, 'flexible' jobs or have no job or are struggling to pay a mortgage/being repossesed etc.

I agree that the "movement" appears to lack coherence, and still very much has an air of people standing around a la "Father Ted" with "down with this sort of thing" placards, and I suspect that "vanguardism" or the possibility of it has kept some protesters at home.
That said, what's the alternative? I for one don't want to see the Swappies pull a StwC on this.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Good post.

Seconded. Any violence loses nearly all of the backing of people who are not participating. Especially with a press obsessed with violence p0rn.

 

[Cressi]

The police use asps because they're more portable

Peoples skulls should be the priority over portability.

Also the press always number how many police injured yet fail to mention how many protesters were.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The police use asps because they're more portable

Peoples skulls should be the priority over portability.

I wholeheartedly agree, but the Home Office don't.
You see, when it comes down to it, the police are what they are: Defenders of the establishment status quo. We're told that they're the upholders of "the law", but as you may have noted vis-a-vis their head-whacking behaviour, "the law" is something they very easily set aside if the choice is between "the law" or their defending of privilege.

Also the press always number how many police injured yet fail to mention how many protesters were.

That's because the police are obliged (for insurance purposes, typically enough) to collect data on officer injuries. They have absolutely no obligation to determine how many "civvies" they've injured.

 

[derf]

There's a surprise. Derf concentrating on the actions of a tiny minority of protesters to highlight a negative aspect of the protest. Who'd a thunk it?

Come on Ed, re-read the OP with care and reconsider that post.

I didn't make comment on what the press are saying, just asked the people who were there what they thought of the coverage.

From what I have read on here and in other places it does seem that most of the people were keeping it happy but the few that did the RBS job have taken over most of the news.

 

[Zachor]

Seconded. Any violence loses nearly all of the backing of people who are not participating. Especially with a press obsessed with violence p0rn.

Taking a small discreet straw poll of peoples conversations about the protests yesterday in my workplace it seems you are right. The genuine grievances of people over Brown and others mishandling of economic matters and the demented 'private sector knows best' bollocks which we have all suffered from have been subsumed in anger and disgust at the protestors.

These are not high flyers or bankers or those in reciept of humungous salaries these are just ordinary low grade staff.

If these protests had been kept fluffy and dignified then much more good could have been done. Also any abuses of power by the police would have had more impact. however now what has happened is the violent actions oif the minority of protestors has filled our TV screens and tarred all those marching yesterday with the same shit filled brush.

Well done lads.....not.

 

[derf]

Also the press always number how many police injured yet fail to mention how many protesters were.

In all fairness, it may be hard to gather those stats as many injuries will be light and a lot of the people in question may not wish to be on record for various reasons.

 

[Spion]

I agree that the "movement" appears to lack coherence, and still very much has an air of people standing around a la "Father Ted" with "down with this sort of thing" placards, and I suspect that "vanguardism" or the possibility of it has kept some protesters at home.
That said, what's the alternative? I for one don't want to see the Swappies pull a StwC on this.

A movement answers every issue we face by demanding the rich pay for what we need in terms of jobs, housing, environment etc and placing the solution under the control of workers in workplaces and communities.

Is that an existing alternative? No. But it never will be unless the idea is fought for