Fucked up kids

[moono]

Yossarian;

Do you even know where Palestine is?

You're the navigator, ask Major Major for a map.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

KeyboardJockey;


You can? I thought it was just me.

Get real, Jock, you're looking for a middle way which isn't there.

If you took the time to inform yourself about those who are working for peace in the region you would find out that there are people and groups on both sides who passionately believe that there is a middle way and it must be walked or more deaths and tragedy will result.

Thirty years ago nobody though that there would be a middle way forward in Northern Ireland now we have a situation where although not perfect is a lot better than the past.

Extremist paths such as removing all arabs from Israeli soil or destroying the legitimate state of Israel will achieve nothing but more deaths. Unquestioning support of Israeli defence actions is as counterproductive and as stupid as the unquestioning worship of groups like Hamas. BTW would YOU like to live under a Hamas Govt? I think not. The Christians who voted for them are beginning to regret it.

Moono, in a spirit of enquiry I would be interested to know why you care about this matter so much and what drives you to see only one side as the villain?

 

[nino_savatte]

Democracy in the arab world - an oxymoron if ever I saw one.

.

Democracy full stop. Where on his planet can we find a real democracy?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Democracy full stop. Where on his planet can we find a real democracy?

Fair point but I was trying to point out that moono was trying to hightlight the splinter in one parties eye whilst totally ignoring the fucking great railway sleeping in his / her own.

 

[nino_savatte]

Fair point but I was trying to point out that moono was trying to hightlight the splinter in one parties eye whilst totally ignoring the fucking great railway sleeping in his / her own.

Aye but the "Arab countries are not democratic" line is a pretty weak argument. Especially so, given the fact that certain US states barred people from voting because of their ethnicity.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Aye but the "Arab countries are not democratic" line is a pretty weak argument. Especially so, given the fact that certain US states barred people from voting because of their ethnicity.

But the bald fact is that vast majority of Arab countries are not in any way democratic. At least in Israel there isa functioning democracy. I agree about the defiencies of certain US states but you could make the argument against Britain (no votes for women until 1921) and many other states.

I'm speaking about the here and now. You are more likely to be jailed, tortured or killed for a political view that the government disagree with in places like Syria or Saudi than in Israel.

For example try setting up a LGBT group in an Arab nation and see what result you get. At least in Israel only the hyper religious Charedi community get hot under the collar about what people do in bed.

 

[nino_savatte]

But the bald fact is that vast majority of Arab countries are not in any way democratic. At least in Israel there isa functioning democracy. I agree about the defiencies of certain US states but you could make the argument against Britain (no votes for women until 1921) and many other states.

I'm speaking about the here and now. You are more likely to be jailed, tortured or killed for a political view that the government disagree with in places like Syria or Saudi than in Israel.

For example try setting up a LGBT group in an Arab nation and see what result you get. At least in Israel only the hyper religious Charedi community get hot under the collar about what people do in bed.

When measured against the partial democracies of the west they look the way they do: less democratic.

Israel is a highly militarised state that exists under emergency powers. I don't think it is terribly democratic. Many of the settlers on the West Bank are Yanks who have imported with them, the notions of the frontier. The US committed genocide against the indigenous population. I see little difference between the US and Israel in this regard. Israel is the 51st state of the US, not Britain. If Israel is so democratic, then why did it imprison Mordechai Vanunu in solitary confinement for so long? Weren't his democratic rights severely infringed?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

When measured against the partial democracies of the west they look the way they do: less democratic.

Agreed but they ARE less democratic than elsewhere.

Israel is a highly militarised state that exists under emergency powers.

It can be argued that the militarisation is a result of being attacked repeatedly and the paranoia that that engenders. I'd like to see the raft of emergency powers and the priority given to National Security reduced to a more normal level. For example I think that there is a conflict of interest in Shin Bet acting as the guardian of public buildings and airports etc and their intellegence work within Israel proper and occupied Judea and Samaria etc. This dual use of Shin Bet makes it difficult for Israel to import certain items for legitimate internal airport security uses for example because of its actions in the occupied territories.

I don't think it is terribly democratic.

Having learned more about the electorial system in Israel I would say that there is a greater democratic flexibility in the Israeli system than in the UK which may be down to the high turnout of voters and also the PR system. Israel is a very dynamic political environment when compared to the UK. For example there is a Pensioners Party in Israel where the majority of votes for it were young people fucked off by the horsetrading in the Knesset. Could you see that happening in the UK? The sad fact is that protest votes in the UK are more likely to go to scum like the bnp.

Many of the settlers on the West Bank are Yanks who have imported with them, the notions of the frontier.

Agree there. The majority of religious extremists are Americans.

The US committed genocide against the indigenous population.

Are you saying that the US committed genocide against the Native Americans if so I will agree with you. If you are saying that the US has committed genocide against the Palestinians then I'm afraid that you are mistaken. What has happened to the Palestinians is wrong and needs to be amended by compensation but it is NOT genocide.

I see little difference between the US and Israel in this regard. Israel is the 51st state of the US, not Britain. If Israel is so democratic, then why did it imprison Mordechai Vanunu in solitary confinement for so long? Weren't his democratic rights severely infringed?

We imprisoned Michael Bettany for 35 years for spying for the Russians whats the difference? However, I agree that the action taken against Vanunu was wrong and the situation could have been dealt with differently.

 

[Divisive Cotton]

I like this comment:

yea.. the whole culture/society is pretty much worthless.

Which is surrounded by dodgy porn

 

[nino_savatte]

Agreed but they ARE less democratic than elsewhere.

It can be argued that the militarisation is a result of being attacked repeatedly and the paranoia that that engenders. I'd like to see the raft of emergency powers and the priority given to National Security reduced to a more normal level. For example I think that there is a conflict of interest in Shin Bet acting as the guardian of public buildings and airports etc and their intellegence work within Israel proper and occupied Judea and Samaria etc. This dual use of Shin Bet makes it difficult for Israel to import certain items for legitimate internal airport security uses for example because of its actions in the occupied territories.

Having learned more about the electorial system in Israel I would say that there is a greater democratic flexibility in the Israeli system than in the UK which may be down to the high turnout of voters and also the PR system. Israel is a very dynamic political environment when compared to the UK. For example there is a Pensioners Party in Israel where the majority of votes for it were young people fucked off by the horsetrading in the Knesset. Could you see that happening in the UK? The sad fact is that protest votes in the UK are more likely to go to scum like the bnp.

Agree there. The majority of religious extremists are Americans.

Are you saying that the US committed genocide against the Native Americans if so I will agree with you. If you are saying that the US has committed genocide against the Palestinians then I'm afraid that you are mistaken. What has happened to the Palestinians is wrong and needs to be amended by compensation but it is NOT genocide.


We imprisoned Michael Bettany for 35 years for spying for the Russians whats the difference? However, I agree that the action taken against Vanunu was wrong and the situation could have been dealt with differently.

The military component existed prior to Israel's creation in 1947. Irgun, for example, is now in power (in the guise of Likud/Kadimah) and their Revisionist Zionism is in the driving seat.

If you are saying that the US has committed genocide against the Palestinians then I'm afraid that you are mistaken. What has happened to the Palestinians is wrong and needs to be amended by compensation but it is NOT genocide.

No, I didn't say that the US has commited genocide against the Palestinian people, though they have contributed directly to their numerous deaths. There has been an ongoing campaign of ethnic cleansing (see the Negev thread for the latest example), which is based, not entirely on notions of nationhood but, rather, ethnic supremacy.

Having learned more about the electorial system in Israel I would say that there is a greater democratic flexibility in the Israeli system than in the UK which may be down to the high turnout of voters and also the PR system. Israel is a very dynamic political environment when compared to the UK.

Hmmmm, maybe. Though I am also aware that not all Israeli political parties are Zionist - The Communists, for instance.

For example there is a Pensioners Party in Israel where the majority of votes for it were young people fucked off by the horsetrading in the Knesset. Could you see that happening in the UK? The sad fact is that protest votes in the UK are more likely to go to scum like the bnp.

We have seen one issue-parties in the UK, they just aren't successful because of the current first past the post system. I don't like it much but it does keep the BNP out of Westminster....perhaps that's its only saving grace.

We imprisoned Michael Bettany for 35 years for spying for the Russians whats the difference? However, I agree that the action taken against Vanunu was wrong and the situation could have been dealt with differently.

Israel lied about its nuclear weapons programme and Vanunu told the world about it. I think there is a difference, ethically speaking.

 

[moono]

Thirty years ago nobody though that there would be a middle way forward in Northern Ireland now we have a situation where although not perfect is a lot better than the past.

A situation I recall as being arrived at by a massive and almost completely successful attack upon the heart of the Empire's financial district.

I very much regret the casualty.

Still, there is no comparison between Palestine and N.I. The oppressors of Palestine have been condemned worldwide and have a vast list of breached United Nations resolutions on their charge sheet. The death toll of the Second Intifada alone is in the thousands.

 

[Yossarian]

The death toll of the Second Intifada alone is in the thousands.

And what do you think the death toll of British involvement in Ireland over the decades was, you clown?

Your recollection of the arrival of a way forward was found in Northern Ireland is inaccurate, incredibly selective, wrong-headed, simple-minded, and lacking any real knowledge of history and context – very similar to your ideas about Palestine!

 

[moono]

Clown is it ? Look again, twat, and you'll see that I emphasised the Palestinian death toll for the Second Intifada ALONE. That's since 2000, numbnuts.
Now, clown, tell me the NI death toll over the DECADES.
Again, there is no comparison between Palestine and NI.

And you're mistaken. The Canary Wharf bomb scared the shit out of the Brits.

Why the fuck do you post, when you know nothing ?

 

[Andy the Don]

Clown is it ? Look again, twat, and you'll see that I emphasised the Palestinian death toll for the Second Intifada ALONE. That's since 2000, numbnuts.
Now, clown, tell me the NI death toll over the DECADES.
Again, there is no comparison between Palestine and NI.

And you're mistaken. The Canary Wharf bomb scared the shit out of the Brits.

Why the fuck do you post, when you know nothing ?

The Canary Wharf bombing in 1996 was after the ceasefire. What brought the UK government & the IRA to the table was on the UK government side the City bombings of the early 90's. Which threatened Londons place as Europes leading financial centre. For the IRA it was the realisation that terror alone would never bring a united Ireland. As well as the loyalist death squads which dented the IRA's claim that they alone could defend the Catholic population.

 

[JoePolitix]

Yeah, they're going ape about this video over at "Adolf's Place" aswell at the moment. What the fuck do these people expect given the brutalisation of Palestinian society by continued Israeli attrocities?

Moono's link exposes the sheer hypocrisy of these Zionoid power worshiping clowns who never say anything about the militised nature of Israeli society or its continued butchery against Palestinian children. The people feining moral outrage at this memri (who are dodgy fuckers anyway) video are fucking arseholes.

 

[Yossarian]

Again, there is no comparison between Palestine and NI.

I think the greatest similarity between the two conflicts is that they both have a disproportionate appeal to sad bastards many miles away who get a hard-on over other people's violent struggles...

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think the greatest similarity between the two conflicts is that they both have a disproportionate appeal to sad bastards many miles away who get a hard-on over other people's violent struggles...

Spot on. IMHO One of the things that prolonged the IRA / Loyalist / UK Govt aggro in NI was the involvement of a bunch of 'student grant' type sad bastards who wank over violence and tragedy.

Shame to see the same type of people are fuelling hatred between Israel and Palestine.

 

[nino_savatte]

What? So Loyalist/Unionist intractability had nowt to do with it?

Republican: I hope you have a Happy Xmas

Loyalist : When you say Xmas, what do you mean? Have given up the gun yet? (While we hold on to ours). What about this word "happy"? Who's happy?

 

[KeyboardJockey]

What? So Loyalist/Unionist intractability had nowt to do with it?

I didn't say that. Of course there was intractablilty amongst the Loyalists. Intractability equally applied to the Republicans. The misguided interference of naieve socalist student grants didn't help the situation on the ground.

Republican: I hope you have a Happy Xmas

Loyalist : When you say Xmas, what do you mean? Have given up the gun yet? (While we hold on to ours). What about this word "happy"? Who's happy?

It is dangerous to see conflicts like NI and Israel Palestine in the terms of one party good and not be criticised constructively or at all (moono's position on Palestinian groups) and one party irredemably evil.

It doesn't help those trying to bring about peace and trust. It's like trying to put out a bonfire with petrol.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But the bald fact is that vast majority of Arab countries are not in any way democratic. At least in Israel there isa functioning democracy. I agree about the defiencies of certain US states but you could make the argument against Britain (no votes for women until 1921) and many other states.

I'm speaking about the here and now. You are more likely to be jailed, tortured or killed for a political view that the government disagree with in places like Syria or Saudi than in Israel.

For example try setting up a LGBT group in an Arab nation and see what result you get. At least in Israel only the hyper religious Charedi community get hot under the collar about what people do in bed.

Thing is that the whole "Arab nations are non-democratic" issue is often, when discussed, constructed on assumptions around the inability of those nations to practice democracy, as though democracy were somehow inimical to the "Arab psyche" (a position put across ruthlessly by many generations of FCO and US State Dept functionaries). The truth is that the UK, the US and a handful of other imperial powers have spent the last century and a half insuring that any move toward democratic governance, or even (moderately) benign dictatorship has been overturned in favour of political systems that favour those imperial interests. Sometimes that intereference has blown up in their faces (Iran, Syria), but more often it has provided a pliant ruling class who support the imperial status quo whatever the cost to the masses of their population. Who knows how democratic, open to questions of sexuality or many other issues the politics of those nations would be if our imperial masters hadn't interfered?

 

[nino_savatte]

I didn't say that. Of course there was intractablilty amongst the Loyalists. Intractability equally applied to the Republicans. The misguided interference of naieve socalist student grants didn't help the situation on the ground.


It is dangerous to see conflicts like NI and Israel Palestine in the terms of one party good and not be criticised constructively or at all (moono's position on Palestinian groups) and one party irredemably evil.

It doesn't help those trying to bring about peace and trust. It's like trying to put out a bonfire with petrol.

Ah, but the NI example is useful. If we look at the history of the province (or what's left of it), then we see that the Protestant community held all the power and Catholics were barred from holding office and from employment. It was the power held by the Protestant hegemony that allowed this to continue until relatively recently. I haven't forgotten the civil rights marches of 1968. I haven't forgotten how Paisley stood there and used some of the most inflammatory rhetoric I had ever heard. It is people like Paisley who stood in the way of progress and, more inportantly, it is the fault of the British for partitioning Ireland in the first place. Like Ireland, the British have used partition as a means of pacifying conflicting ethnic groups; it has been a massive failure. Ireland, India and the Middle East were all subjected to the FCO's red pen and none of those places have ever had lasting peace.

Sinn Fein and the PIRA were a desperate response to a desperate situation.

 

[ViolentPanda]

We imprisoned Michael Bettany for 35 years for spying for the Russians whats the difference? However, I agree that the action taken against Vanunu was wrong and the situation could have been dealt with differently.

There are a couple of small differences, mate.
1) Bettany was an intelligence officer, bounded by all the oaths of his ilk. Vanunu was a nuclear technician, a civilian employee who swore no such oaths.

2) MI6 didn't kidnap Bettany from the territory of another, sovereign, nation in order to prosecute him. The state of Israel did exactly that when they used a Mossad honeytrap to lure Vanunu to Italy and abducted him there.

 

[moono]

The Canary Wharf bombing in 1996 was after the ceasefire. What brought the UK government & the IRA to the table was on the UK government side the City bombings of the early 90's. Which threatened Londons place as Europes leading financial centre. For the IRA it was the realisation that terror alone would never bring a united Ireland. As well as the loyalist death squads which dented the IRA's claim that they alone could defend the Catholic population.

True enough, Andy, but the Canary Wharf bomb served to remind the Brits of their vulnerability.

The twat Yossarian will nevertheless have a hard task finding any similarities between Palestine and NI, despite his daft claim.

I repeat, Yossarian, there have been thousands of Palestinian casualties since the start of the Second Intifada and Israel is the subject of a long list of UN resolution breaches. There is no comparison between the two conflicts.
And there is only one villain. The occupying force.

KeyboardJockey;

I'm a lot more impartial than you

I'm not impartial at all, fool. It's the realm of Dumpties.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

Ah, but the NI example is useful. If we look at the history of the province (or what's left of it), then we see that the Protestant community held all the power and Catholics were barred from holding office and from employment. It was the power held by the Protestant hegemony that allowed this to continue until relatively recently. I haven't forgotten the civil rights marches of 1968. I haven't forgotten how Paisley stood there and used some of the most inflammatory rhetoric I had ever heard. It is people like Paisley who stood in the way of progress and, more inportantly, it is the fault of the British for partitioning Ireland in the first place. Like Ireland, the British have used partition as a means of pacifying conflicting ethnic groups; it has been a massive failure. Ireland, India and the Middle East were all subjected to the FCO's red pen and none of those places have ever had lasting peace.

Sinn Fein and the PIRA were a desperate response to a desperate situation.

I agree with your analysis of NI up to a point. There was a Protestant hegemony that is a matter of historical record but the lionising of Sinn Fein / IRA by the UK left didn't help matters.

As regards partition that was the case in Mespotamia / Iraq but the Balfour Declaration expressly called for co existance between Jew and Arab.

 

[Yossarian]

There is no comparison between the two conflicts.
And there is only one villain. The occupying force.

I'm not the one who brought up the comparison, fucko, but I still reckon you're the equivalent of some dumb American in a Boston bar who's never been to Ireland shaking a tin for the IRA and feeling like a hardman - that or some Orange fuckwit singing about 1690 at a Rangers game.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

True enough, Andy, but the Canary Wharf bomb served to remind the Brits of their vulnerability.

It also fed groups like the British Movement etc. I recall posters on bus stops round East Ham at the time with 'Hang IRA scum' that appeard very shortly after the Canary Wharf bomb.

The twat Yossarian will nevertheless have a hard task finding any similarities between Palestine and NI, despite his daft claim.

I repeat, Yossarian, there have been thousands of Palestinian casualties since the start of the Second Intifada and Israel is the subject of a long list of UN resolution breaches. There is no comparison between the two conflicts.

And how many deaths have been caused by the Second Intifada and the response to it by the Israeli Govt?

And there is only one villain. The occupying force.

Its a shame that you don't use your obvious intellect for good rather than regurgitating propaganda.

There are villains on both sides I'm afraid and as soon as people like yourself recognise this and work with those on both sides who are working towards peace rather than just arse licking hamas etc then the better for all the peoples in the region.

KeyboardJockey;


I'm not impartial at all, fool. It's the realm of Dumpties.

Sometimes impartiality is wisdom and blind commitment to a cause the realm of the naive fool.

I can recognise the wrongness of the security barrier but I can also see that it has reduced the amount and severity of suicide bombers coming in from the West Bank. I don't think the barrier will be a permanant feature I think that as soon as there is normal day to day contact between Israelis and Palestinians the quicker it will come down.

Moono, I'd be interested to know if you have ever met any Israelis - or any Palestinians for that matter. I have and what has struck me is how the ordinary Joe Israeli and Palestinians just want the violence to stop on both sides. I've met Israelis who have lost family to Palestinian terrorists and want an end to violence as a way of honouring the dead in their families and I've met Palestinians who think the same way.

No more deaths and no more outside wankers encouraging more deaths thats what I say.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I'm not the one who brought up the comparison, fucko, but I still reckon you're the equivalent of some dumb American in a Boston bar who's never been to Ireland shaking a tin for the IRA and feeling like a hardman - that or some Orange fuckwit singing about 1690 at a Rangers game.

I'm glad you said this Yossarian because that's my opinion of where Moono is coming from. I noticed that he / she appears to be refusing to answer my point about why they care about the issue so much.

The problem is people like moono pour petrol on the flames of an already tragic situation.

I wish people like him would work for peace in a practical way rather than just spewing hatred for Israelis most of whom just want to get on with their lives.

 

[nino_savatte]

I agree with your analysis of NI up to a point. There was a Protestant hegemony that is a matter of historical record but the lionising of Sinn Fein / IRA by the UK left didn't help matters.

As regards partition that was the case in Mespotamia / Iraq but the Balfour Declaration expressly called for co existance between Jew and Arab.

I don't think anyone is lionising Sinn Fein/PIRA. The Balfour Declaration was a convenient way for the British Empire to get their hands on former Ottoman lands and thus the oil. Having a colony of compliant (or so they thought) Europeans in the Levant would provide a sort of beachhead in the Middle east.

The entire ME was partitioned between the British and French in the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I don't think anyone is lionising Sinn Fein/PIRA.

I'm not accusing you of this but it is something I noticed in socialists in the late 70's to mid 80's. I always though it incongruous that socialists were backing a group that would quite happily have northern ireland forcibly merged with the Republic of Ireland that many of us saw as a theocracy at the time. Its not a theocracy now but the Irish Govt was heavily influenced by the catholic church for many years.

The Balfour Declaration was a convenient way for the British Empire to get their hands on former Ottoman lands and thus the oil. Having a colony of compliant (or so they thought) Europeans in the Levant would provide a sort of beachhead in the Middle east.

Not quite sure I agree with you on this one. Yes there was an interest in a stable levant because the Ottoman empire was collapsing.

The entire ME was partitioned between the British and French in the Sykes-Picot Agreement.

In the case of Iraq, Iran, Lebanon etc I would agree with you but the Balfour Declaration specifically called for the Jews to be allowed to return to their anscestral home that they had been forcibly removed from.

The declaration also called for equality between the religious and ethinic groups in Israel.

Personally my opinion is things will not move forward in Israel until both sides sideline the religious extremists. The Palestinians will have to dump Hamas and the other loons and the Israelis will have to reduce the power of Ultra Orthodox Judaism in the Israeli state.

 

[moono]

Yossarian;

fucko

Brrrrrrrrrrr.

You, like the other tosser, Jockey, have no concept of what the Zionists want, what they would do to get it or even what they are guilty of to date. You strike me as a sponge for Zionist propaganda as disseminated by the BBC according to Lord Levy's insistences in Tone's ear.

To deny that the invader and occupier is the guilty party is the mouthings of a moron, or a Zionist sympathiser, perhaps both. No way is it anywhere close to an armature for the construction of a just solution.