French president Sarkozy slams the burka

[phildwyer]

A guy in Quetta, Pakistan, once explained Burkha to me. Men, he explained, are beasts, wild animals, who need to be restrained by the power of god laws. Man is born bad. The burqa is to protect women from these beasts. "If I see a womans body, maybe the fire inside me grows. Maybe I attack her and rape her. The burqa protects her from the uncontrolled lust of man.
I thought about his opinions afterward and it struck me how catholic Islam was, particularly as practiced in conservative tribal areas like Baluchistan or the NWFP,

On the other hand, Islam also acknowledges (or asserts depending on your point of view) that the male of the species is not naturally monogamous. Which is something that all forms of Christianity either deny or suppress.

 

[phildwyer]

The idea that god sets laws that are so strict and so severe and standards so high that you are supposed to fail. Failure is ok as long as you feel guilty about it. Both Islam (in this form) and Catholicism, share this idea that failing to meet the strict laws of God is to be expected because man is so weak.
So what we get, amongst both Catholics and Muslims, is this acceptance of hypocrisy. Nearly everyone I met in Pakistan drank for example and admitted it with the proviso that they were too weak to live up to the standard expected from God. They felt guilty and by doing so were forgiven by god.

Sounds reasonable enough to me. And it's not just Catholicism that parallels Islam in this regard, but all forms of monotheism. The ritual Jewish law, for instance, is literally impossible to keep. And Jesus's reading of the ten commandments claims that the prohibition of adultery applies to adultery "of the heart," which means it is a prohibition against feeling sexual desire for anyone other than your spouse. Which is of course impossible.

To be a Muslim one only has to do one thing: acknowledge the unity of God and Mohammed's status as the seal of the prophets. All the other requirements are suggestions rather than laws.

 

[Andy the Don]

A guy in Quetta, Pakistan, once explained Burkha to me. Men, he explained, are beasts, wild animals, who need to be restrained by the power of god laws. Man is born bad. The burqa is to protect women from these beasts. "If I see a womans body, maybe the fire inside me grows. Maybe I attack her and rape her. The burqa protects her from the uncontrolled lust of man.

Well in that case if it is the man who is bad and the burkha is protecting the women why does the man not wear the burkha. In fact why does not man not walk around in a box with leg hole clamp around his private parts.
Reminds me of when there was a spate of very nasty rapes in Pakistan and to protect women from the rapists the authorities forced a curfew on women. Getting it a bit arse about face IMO.

 

[DotCommunist]

Come on, dude, you're more intelligent than this.

Nothing wrong with starting a debate on the Burkha - plenty of people find it objectionable no matter what their race.

of course. But look at the language Sarkozy uses. No reasoned appeal that, but a flag, republic and nation appeal. Dodgy cunt imo.

 

[goldenecitrone]

I've had a couple of students who wore the niqab in class and it did make a difference to how they integrated into the group, not being able to see someone's facial expressions does make a huge difference to communication and subsequently I felt I knew them far less than the other students in the class. I didn't help that they both seemed very shy and cowed people. Subsequently I'd prefer it if people didn't wear it in college, but I'm not sure about making it illegal.

 

[paulhackett]

On the other hand, Islam also acknowledges (or asserts depending on your point of view) that the male of the species is not naturally monogamous. Which is something that all forms of Christianity either deny or suppress.

I thought Mormon Fundamentalists still practiced polygamy?

 

[phildwyer]

I thought Mormon Fundamentalists still practiced polygamy?

They're not Christians.

 

[dylans]

At one level I like the militant secularism in the French State. It is one of the democratic gains of the French revolution. Separation of Church and state. For everyone. no crucifix, no Burkha in state institutions. Historically democratic and progressive.

I understand the conflict that arises when issues of piety or cultural observances and necessities clash with this secular idea and I don't propose any answers but, nevertheless, I think its a progressive idea. Very French.

Personally I think it is reasonable for students to be allowed to wear a headscarf but I am not comfortable with students arriving in full burqa.

I have to say, I think it's a horrible, ugly and oppressive garment. It isn't synonymous of Islam in general (whatever that is) .Rather it is synonymous with the very conservative rural tradition of North West Pakistan and Afganistan. That is the only place where I have really seen Burkha.

I only really saw it in really conservative areas like Pashawa and Quetta. This is a wild land. Deserts and mountains and an angry god. These are dusty desert people in dusty desert towns. No women, anywhere in any social life. I never met a woman in the North West of Pakistan in the whole time I was there.

 

[jonH]

Just to prove the french govt isn't religious here's a list of this years public holidays holidays

* Thursday 1 January - New Year's Day (Jour de l'An).
* Sunday 12 April - Easter (Pâques).
* Monday 13 April - Easter Monday (Lundi de Pâques).
* Friday 1 May - Labour Day (Fête du Travail).
* Friday 8 May - VE Day - WWII Victory Day (Fête de la Victoire 1945).
* Thursday 21 May - Ascension Day (Ascension catholique).
* Sunday 31 May - Whit Sunday (Pentecôte).
* Monday 1 June - Whit Monday (Lundi de Pentecôte).
* Tuesday 14 July - Bastille Day (Fête nationale).
* Saturday 15 August - Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary (Assomption).
* Sunday 1 November - All Saints' Day (Toussaint).
* Wednesday 11 November - Armistice Day (Armistice 1918).
* Friday 25 December - Christmas Day (Noël).

 

[Wolveryeti]

Is the point of a full-on burkha not really just men's desire to control their womens' public interactions and keep them isolated? I can't understand women who think it is a mark of pride in their religion. I really can't. I'm tempted to just say they've been brainwashed into thinking that from an early age.

This having been said, I seriously doubt any good will come from the government weighing in on the matter of what civilians are or are not allowed to wear.

 

[jonH]

they say if they're not allowed to wear burkhas, they'll wear nothing, what's worse?

 

[Dr Jon]

A doctrine based on a non-existing god telling you what to wear and what you can and cannot eat is ridiculous. These religions are hundreds of years behind what the world should be aiming for: secular society.

If a woman of any nationality is required to wear a burka in public in somewhere like Saudi Arabia, then why not have a rule against it in France. It's an intersting concept and it's good to see someone standing up for secularism rather than bowing down to the evil that is religion.

When will the world realise that religion and it's laws are just an awful waste of time. It has produced some wonderful architecture though.



Cue "fuck you prick Hobgoblin" from the left wing hug brigade

Well said. Religion is well past its sell-by date.
It is tragic that such superstitious, sky-pixie claptrap is still taken seriously.

 

[fela fan]

Which is why I say it's not the cut and dried issue you (and as I used to) think it is, and wider social context of the community the individual comes from is very important. I would add as well that one of the women I know actually said she wore it because she gets taken more seriously by all men, not just Muslims, because it prevents them from seeing her as a sexualised being in the public sphere.

I also detect a couple of fairly lazy stereotypes about Muslim men in your post ff - IME to many of them go through the same kind of confusion over masculinity and their relationships with women as any other reasonably intelligent and caring male in Western societies, and some of them are absolute pigs, much the same as other men. I think the key factor in how men view women has little to do with their faith (or otherwise) and more to do with the overall question of patriarchy in society...

You really should have seen from my posts that i don't think it's a cut and dried issue, hence wanting to know what burka wearers themselves think about it all. I've certainly put up my opinion that i think it's wrong, but my opinion and the issues are not always standing together.

As for any lazy stereotypes i've posted, if that's the case then i've inadvertently strayed. I need to reread what i've written. Agreed with your comments about relationships.

But, is patriarchy in a society not delivered (and given accord and status) by way of religious interpretation?

 

[untethered]

Well said. Religion is well past its sell-by date.
It is tragic that such superstitious, sky-pixie claptrap is still taken seriously.

It's notable that people making statements like these have had almost zero impact on changing anyone's views on the matter. The best persuasive arguments tend not to start with, "You're an idiot".

 

[fela fan]

What you call cultural bullshit also influences what women in the West and elsewhere, wear (euch, terrible sentence!) as clothing. Is pressure to wear the burkha really any differnt from the pressure to wear revealing/skimpy clothing? Is your finding it 'difficult to imagine' a cultural failing on the part of Islam or a comment on your own inability to empathise with someone from a culture that sees the world in a fundamentally different way to someone bought up in the Western/secular tradition?

I'm not talking about islam this or that really. I'm talking about this burka thing that it seems to me is enforced onto women by men, either directly or indirectly.

I could also talk about the bullshit that culture is responsible for in making people act in ways they'd rather not. This is what i was referring to when mentioning cultural bullshit, how people do things because they're not strong enough to resist the cultural influences.

Don't conflate your imagined character descriptions of myself with what we're posting. I have had the opportunity to live in, be immersed in, and to imbibe two polar opposite cultures and religions. I am a international citizen who takes the un human rights declaration as a point of departure.

I am simply against that which seeks to make the individual a compliant citizen, whether it be through culture, religion, or whatever other means. It's a fucking racket man. Let people be. I did mention i had reservations about banning anything, but if i'm right, and all burka-clad women would really rather not be wearing this stuff, then help is required by them from us.

I think you have a stronger case to make over this issue not being as cut and dried as you have belatedly decided it to be.

 

[fela fan]

A guy in Quetta, Pakistan, once explained Burkha to me. Men, he explained, are beasts, wild animals, who need to be restrained by the power of god laws. Man is born bad. The burqa is to protect women from these beasts. "If I see a womans body, maybe the fire inside me grows. Maybe I attack her and rape her. The burqa protects her from the uncontrolled lust of man.
I thought about his opinions afterward and it struck me how catholic Islam was, particularly as practiced in conservative tribal areas like Baluchistan or the NWFP,
The idea of original sin.That man is born bad and lives weak and can only be controlled through the strict laws of god. Laws so strict that people cannot possibly live up to them.

The idea that god sets laws that are so strict and so severe and standards so high that you are supposed to fail. Failure is ok as long as you feel guilty about it. Both Islam (in this form) and Catholicism, share this idea that failing to meet the strict laws of God is to be expected because man is so weak.
So what we get, amongst both Catholics and Muslims, is this acceptance of hypocrisy. Nearly everyone I met in Pakistan drank for example and admitted it with the proviso that they were too weak to live up to the standard expected from God. They felt guilty and by doing so were forgiven by god.

An informative post. It's an example to me of how others who get caught up in religion or culture feel it necessary to control everyone else because of their own bloody weaknesses.

And yes, those two religions certainly encourage hypocrisy. Perhaps they all do, but these two seem to have the most influence in the modern day era over their 'followers'.

So to add to one of kyser's comments, yes, even the men may be persuaded into wanting their new wives to wear this burka thing, so they themselves have become victims of religious and cultural thinking and sermonising.

It's so easy to blame God!! But weak as hell.

 

[dylans]

@fela fan

I also detect a couple of fairly lazy stereotypes about Muslim men in your post ff - IME to many of them go through the same kind of confusion over masculinity and their relationships with women as any other reasonably intelligent and caring male in Western societies, and some of them are absolute pigs, much the same as other men. .

I must say in Pakistan I saw some pretty twisted attitudes to women and especially to sex. Wow Pakistan is sexually frustrated. Every conversation would be sexually charged and people would always steer the conversation to sex some how.

That is all the men think about and talk about.Sex Sex Sex. Because there are NO women! None. And no opportunities to meet women. If you are poor and male in Pakistan chances are you are never going to meet a women. That fucks peoples heads up. Add to this mix ignorance, poverty war and the growing ideas of fundamentalism and you have a fucked up situation.

Pakistan is the most sexually frustrated country I have ever been too. There are no women anywhere in public life, except ghostly burkha shadows. Women are not free in these parts of Pakistan. People stated that fact to me all the time. If a female is seen even talking to a man who is not part of the family her family can cut off her nose or kill her.

Burkha is intimately tied to this tradition.

I think there is no question in my mind that Burkha is an instrument of repression.

 

[fela fan]

I've had a couple of students who wore the niqab in class and it did make a difference to how they integrated into the group, not being able to see someone's facial expressions does make a huge difference to communication and subsequently I felt I knew them far less than the other students in the class. I didn't help that they both seemed very shy and cowed people. Subsequently I'd prefer it if people didn't wear it in college, but I'm not sure about making it illegal.

This sums it up for me.

But, how to help all these people who are being basically forced (by religious and/or cultural 'persuasion') to wear stuff that so cows them? If not banning it, then what?

 

[kyser_soze]

But, is patriarchy in a society not delivered (and given accord and status) by way of religious interpretation?

No - aside from a few Pacfic Island and possibly rainforest societies that have matriachal systems, the whole planet is based around patriarchy; how this came about, whether it was driven by religion, or that religion came to reflect it as societies grew in size, became agrarian and the types of and division of labour between men and women changed (i.e. a small h-g tribe of 50 people will necessarily have a certain level of equality in division of labour; an agrarian society of 5,000 doesn't have such an immediate 'everyone has to contribute in all ways' need)

I'm tempted to just say they've been brainwashed into thinking that from an early age.

Just as a girl in the west who grows up wearing 'Playboy' t-shirts and who's only ambition is to become a topless model in Nuts or Zoo has been 'brainwashed'. Fucks sake, every culture imbues it's norms and values in it's people. The dynamics of Islamic societies aren't so different from our own.

But then socliasing women to feel pressurised into wearing revealing clothing is so much better then socialising them into wearing more modest dress isn't it?

 

[fela fan]

I have to say, I think it's a horrible, ugly and oppressive garment. It isn't synonymous of Islam in general (whatever that is) .Rather it is synonymous with the very conservative rural tradition of North West Pakistan and Afganistan. That is the only place where I have really seen Burkha.

I only really saw it in really conservative areas like Pashawa and Quetta. This is a wild land. Deserts and mountains and an angry god. These are dusty desert people in dusty desert towns. No women, anywhere in any social life. I never met a woman in the North West of Pakistan in the whole time I was there.

Good to read your post mate. But, in that case, how come it's an issue in france? Are the 'islamic' immigrants there all from one part of pakistan and afghanistan?

Incidentally, i've seen it a couple of times on thailand. Well, a few times, but in a couple of places.

 

[fela fan]

Just as a girl in the west who grows up wearing 'Playboy' t-shirts and who's only ambition is to become a topless model in Nuts or Zoo has been 'brainwashed'. Fucks sake, every culture imbues it's norms and values in it's people. The dynamics of Islamic societies aren't so different from our own.

But then socliasing women to feel pressurised into wearing revealing clothing is so much better then socialising them into wearing more modest dress isn't it?

Er, what does that question mean then kyser? You really just cannot help yourself in projecting your own interpretations of what i say onto me as part of who i am and what i think and so on. It's just very poor and lazy posting.

 

[dylans]

Good to read your post mate. But, in that case, how come it's an issue in france? Are the 'islamic' immigrants there all from one part of pakistan and afghanistan?

Incidentally, i've seen it a couple of times on thailand. Well, a few times, but in a couple of places.

Good question. Algerian Muslims.North Africa. I don't know much about Islam in Algeria but I lived in Cairo for a couple of years. I never saw Burkha in Egypt.

Interestingly Cairo women have started wearing headscarfs recently though Mubarak doesn't really approve.I don't think it's indicative of growing Islamism in Egypt. A lot of women in Cairo told me they felt it was part of their Arab pride.

 

[phildwyer]

Well said. Religion is well past its sell-by date.
It is tragic that such superstitious, sky-pixie claptrap is still taken seriously.

Can you do us all a favor and keep your bigoted rubbish off these boards please? Ta.

 

[kyser_soze]

Er, what does that question mean then kyser? You really just cannot help yourself in projecting your own interpretations of what i say onto me as part of who i am and what i think and so on. It's just very poor and lazy posting.

Not aimed at you - check who I quoted above that paragraph fela; it's a comment by wolveryeti...

 

[Wolveryeti]

Just as a girl in the west who grows up wearing 'Playboy' t-shirts and who's only ambition is to become a topless model in Nuts or Zoo has been 'brainwashed'. Fucks sake, every culture imbues it's norms and values in it's people. The dynamics of Islamic societies aren't so different from our own.

Well it's not really the same is it? With burqa wearing there is significant, direct, familial as well as cultural pressure. Do people in this country intimidate or beat their daughters because they refuse to dress like a playboy bunny...?

But then socliasing women to feel pressurised into wearing revealing clothing is so much better then socialising them into wearing more modest dress isn't it?

I think the issue here is that the covered-face burkha goes further than the requirements of modesty, and acts as an impediment to communication and integration into society.

This is one aspect which sets it apart from your Playboy example. The other is that I am really struggling to think of any way in which the burqa actually benefits the woman wearing it. I don't have any problems thinking of examples in which dressing sexily might be of benefit to a woman.

 

[dylans]

Can you do us all a favor and keep your bigoted rubbish off these boards please? Ta.

Why is it bigoted?

As long he holds all religions equally in contempt, there is nothing bigoted in denouncing religion as a whole as nonsense. At one level it is.

If they are honest, all athiests hold this view.As an athiest I am bit tired of this "reverence" for religion too.

 

[fela fan]

Not aimed at you - check who I quoted above that paragraph fela; it's a comment by wolveryeti...

Oh dear, apologies then!

 

[dylanredefined]

I must say in Pakistan I saw some pretty twisted attitudes to women and especially to sex. Wow Pakistan is sexually frustrated. Every conversation would be sexually charged and people would always steer the conversation to sex some how.

That is all the men think about and talk about.Sex Sex Sex. Because there are NO women! None. And no opportunities to meet women. If you are poor and male in Pakistan chances are you are never going to meet a women. That fucks peoples heads up. Add to this mix ignorance, poverty war and the growing ideas of fundamentalism and you have a fucked up situation.

Pakistan is the most sexually frustrated country I have ever been too. There are no women anywhere in public life, except ghostly burkha shadows. Women are not free in these parts of Pakistan. People stated that fact to me all the time. If a female is seen even talking to a man who is not part of the family her family can cut off her nose or kill her.

Burkha is intimately tied to this tradition.

I think there is no question in my mind that Burkha is an instrument of repression.

" Your not getting any sex no drink no drugs ever thought of jihad running around afganistian with an ak47 will take your mind of sex and if you get killed
straight to paradise" If you put it like that the appeal of the taliban dosen't seem too stupid after all.

 

[kyser_soze]

Well it's not really the same is it? With burqa wearing there is significant, direct, familial as well as cultural pressure. Do people in this country intimidate or beat their daughters because they refuse to dress like a playboy bunny...?

So you think that, even today, parents don't try and control what their daughters wear? That no father (or mother) has ever raised his hand to a child because of what she wants to wear/do doesn't match his view on the matter?

I think the issue here is that the covered-face burkha goes further than the requirements of modesty, and acts as an impediment to communication and integration into society.

Which society? Ours? A society where every other woman wears the veil? And how much of this is down to the veil, and how much down to our inability to work around it, because it's all we can see, and not the person beneath it? Who's problem is that - ours or the person wearing the veil?

This is one aspect which sets it apart from your Playboy example. The other is that I am really struggling to think of any way in which the burqa actually benefits the woman wearing it. I don't have any problems thinking of examples in which dressing sexily might be of benefit to a woman.

Hmm, and what does a woman dressing sexily gaining advantage over others who don't, and using that sexuality to manipulate male (or female, but lets face it we're talking about men here), say about our society and how we view and treat women?

Just so we're clear - I'm not a fan of the burkha, chadour or any other covering; however I also disagree with Sarkozy's blunt instrument attempts to impose some kind of cultural imperialism on Muslim citizens in France, which smacks as more a 'bash the brownies' act then it does one of a principled stand.

And of course, as we all know, banning something that many hold dear to their hearts, or indeed banning something that they don't hold dear but that many perceive as being part of cultural identity, will only make the desire to continue using/wearing it grow...you're never going to win anyone over to your way of thinking by banning stuff...

 

[cesare]

Why is it bigoted?

As long he holds all religions equally in contempt, there is nothing bigoted in denouncing religion as a whole as nonsense. At one level it is.

If they are honest, all athiests hold this view.As an athiest I am bit tired of this "reverence" for religion too.

There's a fine line to be trod between acknowledging and accepting the emotional, spiritual and political power of religion v 'reverence'.

I don't revere religion (still less, organised religion) but I'm not quick to denounce it or its followers. Denouncing and/or discounting won't make it go away, and just serves to harden attitudes.