Well quite. This is why I say he's up to something. If I had to guess I'd say he's "preparing" (as they say) the Frogs for an Israeli strike against Iran.
French president Sarkozy slams the burka
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Well quite. This is why I say he's up to something. If I had to guess I'd say he's "preparing" (as they say) the Frogs for an Israeli strike against Iran.
Yeah, like they focus on just one thing at a time.
Bollocks. Sarkozy doesn't give a shit about the burkha. He's using it to stir up anti-Islamic feeling among les frogs. Et pourquoi est un tres bon question.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
He was responding to submissions from 60 MPs though ....
says you
London_Calling
Pleasant and unpatronising
So is this about respecting an individual's choices vs. respecting the generic culture of the host country?
Is social force any less than force by threat of violence?
And i'd like to hear from females who are happy to be covering themselves from head to toe when they're out and about while living their lives.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
He's enthusiastically pushing the bandwagon.
It's all a pretty blatant appeal to anti Arab prejudice.
I don't think it's dress codes that are the problem, rather enforced dress codes on one half of the population, wherever it is practised.
Or is it someone who's speaking out against men forcing their will on women through the guise of misrepresented religious teachings? If france is so keen on keeping the church and state separate, then perhaps the burka represents an assault on traditionally held concepts about freedom more than say in britain?
I'd like to know what burka-clad women feel about the clothing they have to wear. I wonder if they support sarkozy over this?
it's also the debate about wether the more medieval varieties of islam are compatible with the developed world
must admit i'd find it hard to defend the burqah, i wouldn't argue strongly for or against it because i don't know enough about the ins and outs, but it does appear a pretty shit way to treat women
"It will not be welcome on French soil," he said." We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity."
and
President Sarkozy may have given his backing to an open debate on the burka, but he also insisted France needed to make sure it knew exactly what it was debating.
"We must not fight the wrong battle," he said. "In the republic, the Muslim faith must be respected as much as other religions."
Nothing seems wrong with what he's saying to me. But again, we need to know from women who wear the burka why they do so, and their own reaction to it. I certainly thought the mother i observed in her family context seemed deprived of identity.
Intuitively what sarkozy says about the burqa demeaning women resonates with me. And at the end, the bit i've quoted him saying too, he demonstrates very well the context in which he has come out against the burka.
and
President Sarkozy may have given his backing to an open debate on the burka, but he also insisted France needed to make sure it knew exactly what it was debating.
"We must not fight the wrong battle," he said. "In the republic, the Muslim faith must be respected as much as other religions."
Nothing seems wrong with what he's saying to me. But again, we need to know from women who wear the burka why they do so, and their own reaction to it. I certainly thought the mother i observed in her family context seemed deprived of identity.
Intuitively what sarkozy says about the burqa demeaning women resonates with me. And at the end, the bit i've quoted him saying too, he demonstrates very well the context in which he has come out against the burka.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I can't speak for lasses wearing full coverings but a head covering is common here. No one is forced to wear it but many do anyway because they want to.
It's as normal for them as wearing any clothes at all is in other countries.
Do you think it's fine to walk the streets naked but don't as social norms would prevent you?
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
This has been a rumbling issue in France for ages, and I partly agree with phil as to asking why Sarko has suddenly turned this into a front page issue again.
A couple of years ago I would have almost automatically responded in agreement with the 'ban it' argument...having spent the intervening period working with a number of Muslim women some of whom wear it, some of whom don't, my opinion is that it's not the clear cut 'It's a destroyer of identity' that many like to think it is. It has to be seen in the wider context of the specific community. For example, I would argue that for women from some parts of the Bangladeshi community in London the wearing of the chadour is connected to issues surrounding repression, lack of public identity etc; however, for other parts of the wider muslim community it's as much a badge of religious identity, something that's worn with pride (well, not pride cos that's sinful but YSWIM) rather than imposed...and it certainly doesn't prevent these women having a very public identity.
Then of course you get those Muslim women who wear all-over kit that's figure hugging and incredibly sexy...
So no, it's not so clear cut, and it certainly isn't some kind of principled stand about women's rights, more about the assertion of one set of cultural norms over another being done in a very, very hamfisted fashion.
A couple of years ago I would have almost automatically responded in agreement with the 'ban it' argument...having spent the intervening period working with a number of Muslim women some of whom wear it, some of whom don't, my opinion is that it's not the clear cut 'It's a destroyer of identity' that many like to think it is. It has to be seen in the wider context of the specific community. For example, I would argue that for women from some parts of the Bangladeshi community in London the wearing of the chadour is connected to issues surrounding repression, lack of public identity etc; however, for other parts of the wider muslim community it's as much a badge of religious identity, something that's worn with pride (well, not pride cos that's sinful but YSWIM) rather than imposed...and it certainly doesn't prevent these women having a very public identity.
Then of course you get those Muslim women who wear all-over kit that's figure hugging and incredibly sexy...
So no, it's not so clear cut, and it certainly isn't some kind of principled stand about women's rights, more about the assertion of one set of cultural norms over another being done in a very, very hamfisted fashion.
i think the argument is that the burqah isn't just wearing strange clothes, it stands for something more
Hey. Take it easy on the burkha.
I'm reminded, a few years back, of a guy being escorted from Marks and Spencers in Birmingham. He was dressed in full burka and was hanging about in the lingerie department. His size thirteen boots attracted the attention of the staff.
I'm reminded, a few years back, of a guy being escorted from Marks and Spencers in Birmingham. He was dressed in full burka and was hanging about in the lingerie department. His size thirteen boots attracted the attention of the staff.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Given that a country like France has lots of nuns wandering about setting a precedent, I wonder why any woman would want to go further than the Hijab - which is super-modest in comparison to young women with their bits hanging out.
I would guess is this is mostly about ghettoisation.
I would guess is this is mostly about ghettoisation.
But are your ideas based on your observations and intuition, or actually asking the women you've worked with why they wear the burka? Did they tell you they wore it as a badge of religious identity?
Does the woman wear it by choice, or do their husbands make them wear it through the guise of cultural/religious bullshit? What about single women, do they have to wear it? I guess they do, therefore, have they chosen to wear it, or is their family telling them to be a good young lady and wear the right clothing?
What have these wearers of the burka actually told you?
Well, that's where it gets dodgy of course, always does when one human bans others from doing things.
But i would argue, and i don't know because i've never been able to actually ask burka wearers, that religious and/or cultural bullshit yet again interferes with the choice of an individual to live the life they want to, so long as they cause no harm to others. I find it quite difficult to imagine a woman actually wanting to cover themselves up from head to toe when they go out. It seems contrary to the spirit of being a woman to me. I know i did read a book about life in modern afghanistan, and reading how much the women in that story hated all the repressions they had to put up with at the hands of the men and a weird anti-human culture imposing on them. Of which the burka was the main symbol of this repression.
I think it's indicative of repression personally, and for this reason i would support sarkozy, but only only on condition that i've seen plenty of opinions from those who actually have to wear it. But they're not readily available it seems to me. Perhaps this thread will turn up something.
Those with less power in life face injustice, and, to gain advances, depend to a degree on those with more power that have humanity flowing through their veins, not selfishness and concern for oneself only.
chainsaw cat
Tea. Biccies. Happy now?
That's why it's ironic - 'we are going to take away your choice to do this thing because we think that you should only do things you have chosen to do and some of you doing this thing were coerced'
More logical to ban the forcing of people to wear burka. But more difficult and politicians only have easy answers.
In fact they only have 2 answers
1. ban it
2. tax it
Jeff Robinson
Marxist-Lentilist: Jackboots and Jackfruit
"The concept of secularism or "laicite" is sacred in France."
Epic fail.
Epic fail.
I think this sums it up although I also think it goes wider than that. The issue of 'Islamification' is a big European issue and how the whole thing is dealt with will determine Europes future.
From what I understand those who wear the full length burka tend to those Muslims who follow the Wahhabism school of Islam which is very joyless and miserable form of Islam which I feel should be viewed in the way that the Klu-Klux Klan are seen as representing Christianity. With the only difference between that the KKK aint got the amount of oil wealth helping them spread their brand of poison.
Now I am not sure if banning is the right way forward because it will be seen as an attack on Islam but I do feel it is perfectly correct for the West to confront this type of Islamic belief because those who follow it would happily impose it on us.
What we really need to do is wipe Saudi Arabia off the face of the map but that aint going to happen so really we need the next best thing which is to come up with a real viable alternative to oil and then just fuck it off and watch it go back to the third world shit hole is deserves to be.
Of course to many Muslim women, western clothes are strange.
Men allowing lasses to wear almost nothing is a very odd concept.
Of course a shirt up to a lasses arse means prostitute to many Muslims.
So much more than just a lass wearing what she wants.
It's a case of trying to see the other side's point of view.
Sadly many on urban are still stuck in their bigoted ways and are unable to consider another point of view if it fails to suit them.
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
@fela fan
Well those women I've talked to have been a mixed bag, unsurprisingly. One I knew years ago didn't wear it when she was single, but took to wearing it when she got married - but then that period also included her embarking on a rediscovery/reaffirmation of her faith and it seemed from her answers that it was partly a pragmatic thing about making her husband's parents happy (I talked with him about it and he didn't want her wearing it) but mainly through her personal journey in her faith.
One of the women at work who wears a burkha does it partly out of 'Well, everyone else at the mosque does it' but also that she sees it as no different as wearing a cross as an external symbol of her faith. One of the women who is single and who is very religious really does do it for the faith.
Which is why I say it's not the cut and dried issue you (and as I used to) think it is, and wider social context of the community the individual comes from is very important. I would add as well that one of the women I know actually said she wore it because she gets taken more seriously by all men, not just Muslims, because it prevents them from seeing her as a sexualised being in the public sphere.
I also detect a couple of fairly lazy stereotypes about Muslim men in your post ff - IME to many of them go through the same kind of confusion over masculinity and their relationships with women as any other reasonably intelligent and caring male in Western societies, and some of them are absolute pigs, much the same as other men. I think the key factor in how men view women has little to do with their faith (or otherwise) and more to do with the overall question of patriarchy in society...
Well those women I've talked to have been a mixed bag, unsurprisingly. One I knew years ago didn't wear it when she was single, but took to wearing it when she got married - but then that period also included her embarking on a rediscovery/reaffirmation of her faith and it seemed from her answers that it was partly a pragmatic thing about making her husband's parents happy (I talked with him about it and he didn't want her wearing it) but mainly through her personal journey in her faith.
One of the women at work who wears a burkha does it partly out of 'Well, everyone else at the mosque does it' but also that she sees it as no different as wearing a cross as an external symbol of her faith. One of the women who is single and who is very religious really does do it for the faith.
Which is why I say it's not the cut and dried issue you (and as I used to) think it is, and wider social context of the community the individual comes from is very important. I would add as well that one of the women I know actually said she wore it because she gets taken more seriously by all men, not just Muslims, because it prevents them from seeing her as a sexualised being in the public sphere.
I also detect a couple of fairly lazy stereotypes about Muslim men in your post ff - IME to many of them go through the same kind of confusion over masculinity and their relationships with women as any other reasonably intelligent and caring male in Western societies, and some of them are absolute pigs, much the same as other men. I think the key factor in how men view women has little to do with their faith (or otherwise) and more to do with the overall question of patriarchy in society...
kyser_soze
Hawking's Angry Eyebrow
What you call cultural bullshit also influences what women in the West and elsewhere, wear (euch, terrible sentence!) as clothing. Is pressure to wear the burkha really any differnt from the pressure to wear revealing/skimpy clothing? Is your finding it 'difficult to imagine' a cultural failing on the part of Islam or a comment on your own inability to empathise with someone from a culture that sees the world in a fundamentally different way to someone bought up in the Western/secular tradition?
dylans
overlord of all acorns
A guy in Quetta, Pakistan, once explained Burkha to me. Men, he explained, are beasts, wild animals, who need to be restrained by the power of god laws. Man is born bad. The burqa is to protect women from these beasts. "If I see a womans body, maybe the fire inside me grows. Maybe I attack her and rape her. The burqa protects her from the uncontrolled lust of man.
I thought about his opinions afterward and it struck me how catholic Islam was, particularly as practiced in conservative tribal areas like Baluchistan or the NWFP,
The idea of original sin.That man is born bad and lives weak and can only be controlled through the strict laws of god. Laws so strict that people cannot possibly live up to them.
The idea that god sets laws that are so strict and so severe and standards so high that you are supposed to fail. Failure is ok as long as you feel guilty about it. Both Islam (in this form) and Catholicism, share this idea that failing to meet the strict laws of God is to be expected because man is so weak.
So what we get, amongst both Catholics and Muslims, is this acceptance of hypocrisy. Nearly everyone I met in Pakistan drank for example and admitted it with the proviso that they were too weak to live up to the standard expected from God. They felt guilty and by doing so were forgiven by god.
I thought about his opinions afterward and it struck me how catholic Islam was, particularly as practiced in conservative tribal areas like Baluchistan or the NWFP,
The idea of original sin.That man is born bad and lives weak and can only be controlled through the strict laws of god. Laws so strict that people cannot possibly live up to them.
The idea that god sets laws that are so strict and so severe and standards so high that you are supposed to fail. Failure is ok as long as you feel guilty about it. Both Islam (in this form) and Catholicism, share this idea that failing to meet the strict laws of God is to be expected because man is so weak.
So what we get, amongst both Catholics and Muslims, is this acceptance of hypocrisy. Nearly everyone I met in Pakistan drank for example and admitted it with the proviso that they were too weak to live up to the standard expected from God. They felt guilty and by doing so were forgiven by god.
Come on, dude, you're more intelligent than this.
Nothing wrong with starting a debate on the Burkha - plenty of people find it objectionable no matter what their race.
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