French anarchists and libertarians on the rioting

[Ryazan]

Name names!!! Or is this merely projection?

projection? I have listened to anarchists drivelling on at the Gregson (community centre- really hogged by middle class students for their poncy posturing) in Lancaster about how they are radical and the local working class isn't. As if the local working class needs them! There is a good Gay/Bi/Lesbian disco there though.

 

[reallyoldhippy]

I have listened to anarchists drivelling on at the Gregson .

Is the Gregson in a working class area? Why don't the local scroats give these middle-class wankers a kicking?

 

[Ryazan]

They woudn't dare go onto Skerton or the Marsh...The wrong side of the Lune...

 

[audiotech]

Not a Python moment!

Ryazan I would take more seriously your comments about 'lame', 'bile', 'daft' comments if you didn't use them yourself.

Just for the record, I was brought up on a council estate, after moving there as part of a slum clearance programme in the late 60's. It was fantastic to have for the first time an inside khazi, a bath (which wasn't a tin one you dragged from the cellar) and heating which didn't involve newspapers, fire lighters and nutty slack.

I came across the SWP when two of it's members knocked on our front door one day - one being a working-class scouser who I 'engaged' with and he 'listened'. He asked me along to a meeting which I attended (lots of listening and engaging). Many years later I found myself doing exactly the same thing on a working class estate other than my own.

 

[reallyoldhippy]

They woudn't dare go onto Skerton or the Marsh...The wrong side of the Lune...

So the Gregson isn't in a working class area? What's its relevance, then?

 

[Ryazan]

I cam across an SWP member outside of the estate I live on who was very middle class and was berating me for not going to the "theataaaarrrr, and the pob".

And the SWP since those days MC5. Any good? Trotsky taken seriously by the working class? Not like those compelled to take him serioulsy at some time in the development of the USSR.

 

[Ryazan]

So the Gregson isn't in a working class area? What's its relevance, then?

It is, I mean apart from estates and Grammar School toff areas a lot of Lancaster has a big mix, including the Gregson.

 

[audiotech]

I cam across an SWP member outside of the estate I live on who was very middle class and was berating me for not going to the "theataaaarrrr, and the pob".

And the SWP since those days MC5. Any good? Trotsky taken seriously by the working class? Not like those compelled to take him serioulsy at some time in the development of the USSR.

The SWP is one of the few groups left from that period. I suspect because thanks to Trotsky they had a better understanding of the nature of Stalinism and the USSR.

This member of the SWP who was berating you for not going to the "theataaaarrrr, and the pob" (what is a "pob"), sounds like a right philistine.

 

[Ryazan]

Has the SWP been true to Trotsky? No compromises that might be embarassing?

And you missed out the working class bit. Are they taken seriously on the whole? Not just among the workibg class members of that organisation.

 

[audiotech]

Has the SWP been true to Trotsky? No compromises that might be embarassing?

And you missed out the working class bit. Are they taken seriously on the whole? Not just among the workibg class members of that organisation.

I don't understand your first point.

For all their faults the SWP has more roots (which are very small indeed) inside the working class than most other far-left groups.

Sorry for the derail.

Ryazan, can we do this somewhere else please.

 

[Ryazan]

Okay.

 

[John Quays]

Meanwhile dicked-on people, North African origin or not have their cars 'carbonised' night after night. Make no mistake, it's they who suffer.

Fuck Sarkozy, let's hope he resigns. Oh yeah, while we're on, you can more or less forget your classes here in Euro-France land. It's immigrants, 'fonctionnaires', peasants or the well well-off as far as I can tell.

Anarchy my left arse. I've drunk my French beer tonight and I'll tell you what I see: fashion conscious kids high on vanity and the power of fear, with no compass of any sort, moral, social or geographical, attacking the only people they come into contact with who make any effort to fight back.

In the end, the République will crush them again, and the rest of its deluded 'equal' citizens too.

When these hoody-topped kids call for action on all levels against all authority and by all citizens - then we're talking.

 

[888]

Oh yeah, while we're on, you can more or less forget your classes here in Euro-France land. It's immigrants, 'fonctionnaires', peasants or the well well-off as far as I can tell.

Those are classes, or parts of classes. But you've left several out. And you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

 

[John Quays]

I'm a creative thinker, not an activist. So I've been on the wrong forum I guess.

Otherwise, while accepting your allusion to the sloppiness of my remarks, you can still bollocks, 888.

 

[Herbert Read]

I was referring to Herbert on the comments about the IWCA. He has posted some shite on the IWCA- Social Housing thread on t'other board. And on the Liberation Shopping thread. Usually with a at the end of each crap comment.

Its well shite been critical of an organisation that advocates reformist politics and standing in local government. I must be mental, imagine not believing in local or national govt with the current framework, or reformist politics i must be crazy.

 

[888]

I'm a creative thinker, not an activist. So I've been on the wrong forum I guess.

Otherwise, while accepting your allusion to the sloppiness of my remarks, you can still bollocks, 888.

This part is nonsense:

fashion conscious kids high on vanity and the power of fear, with no compass of any sort, moral, social or geographical, attacking the only people they come into contact with who make any effort to fight back.

The majority of the anger is clearly directed at the police. Fashion conscious High on vanity and fear? - sounds like you're just stating your pre-made assumptons of what they might be like. Creative thinker indeed.

 

[John Quays]

Bugger. I'm rumbled again by British sociology's finest. Or am I?

Well I do live in Lille, anyway.

I'd take issue with what you say about the anger. The guerilla attacks have generally been conducted precisely in such a way as to avoid the police, with mobile groups of rioters attacking property and vehicles before scattering and melting away. Clashes with the CRS don't often work in the favour of protesters.

(I'd get rid of the CRS tomorrow, but the French don't seem quite to realise how negative an effect they have on people.)

As for the rest, well, it's true I'm not at all of the same milieu or background as the 'fouteurs de trouble'. Obviously. But I know very well what disaffected French youth looks like from having worked in collèges, lycées and unis for the last five years.

I'd gladly retract 'high on vanity' but by christ the visible vanity that goes with group culture exists all the same. And don't tell me that the power of creating fear in local, older people isn't intoxicating.

Finally, the arson attacks hit schools - where teachers try to help - McDonalds - where the possibility of earning money is at least open to some - recycling plants - you see my point? Easy targets all, and all will in fact affect other disadvantaged people more than anyone else. I don't claim that's deliberate, but there it is all the same.

That's why as much as I cede to your criticisms about my cod-sociology, I won't have the rest dismissed as nonsense. D'accord?

 

[888]

OK, I don't know enough about exactly what & who has been attacked the most, and I admit that a lot of it is just undirected random anger, but bear in mind that the media will emphasise the most pointless and shocking attacks, so that even if there slightly more intent to the anger, they will portray it as as mindless and thuggish as possible... god forbid that these youths might have a reason to be angry.

 

[soulman]

I'd take issue with what you say about the anger. The guerilla attacks have generally been conducted precisely in such a way as to avoid the police, with mobile groups of rioters attacking property and vehicles before scattering and melting away. Clashes with the CRS don't often work in the favour of protesters.

If that's the case it suggests that tactics are being discussed and developed as the riots/insurrection grows. From the initial head to head fighting that led to many arrests, through luring the police into the estates and ambushing them to small mobile groups swarming in to a particular location and out again quickly.

(I'd get rid of the CRS tomorrow, but the French don't seem quite to realise how negative an effect they have on people.)

As for the rest, well, it's true I'm not at all of the same milieu or background as the 'fouteurs de trouble'. Obviously. But I know very well what disaffected French youth looks like from having worked in collèges, lycées and unis for the last five years.

I'd gladly retract 'high on vanity' but by christ the visible vanity that goes with group culture exists all the same. And don't tell me that the power of creating fear in local, older people isn't intoxicating.

Finally, the arson attacks hit schools - where teachers try to help - McDonalds - where the possibility of earning money is at least open to some - recycling plants - you see my point? Easy targets all, and all will in fact affect other disadvantaged people more than anyone else. I don't claim that's deliberate, but there it is all the same.

That's why as much as I cede to your criticisms about my cod-sociology, I won't have the rest dismissed as nonsense. D'accord?

Why do you think that schools and notoriously poorly paying and demeaning workplaces are being targetted? There must be lots of other 'easy' targets.

 

[John Quays]

If that's the case it suggests that tactics are being discussed and developed as the riots/insurrection grows. From the initial head to head fighting that led to many arrests, through luring the police into the estates and ambushing them to small mobile groups swarming in to a particular location and out again quickly.



Why do you think that schools and notoriously poorly paying and demeaning workplaces are being targetted? There must be lots of other 'easy' targets.

Good points, you're saying that there's more organisation behind this than there seems? There may also be the American factor with McDonalds... the schools though prolly coz they have all suffered there so much??
Not sure on that one.

 

[soulman]

Good points, you're saying that there's more organisation behind this than there seems? There may also be the American factor with McDonalds... the schools though prolly coz they have all suffered there so much??
Not sure on that one.

It's difficult to understand exactly what's going on which is probably why so many people who have something to offer to the discussion are reluctant to get involved.

If there is a level of organisation then I think it's likely to be self-organisation rather than the traditional concept of some shady leaders in the background pulling strings. It's also going to be self-organisation and coordination that goes beyond face to face meetings to use the latest must have consumer products and technology - texting, mobile imaging, the internet and so on. I get the feeling Debord would be pissing himself laughing.

 

[888]

La goutte qui a fair Deborder le vase.

 

[Taxamo Welf]

Its well shite been critical of an organisation that advocates reformist politics and standing in local government. I must be mental, imagine not believing in local or national govt with the current framework, or reformist politics i must be crazy.

i'm not sure they do - they only stand in council elections and only stand in other ones for publicity. They may well see the idea of taking over councils as a step to giving power to communities and never going higher than that; they don't put out anything more specific post this stage. They are not neccessarily reformist: start a thread on it and ask, i'd be interested to see what they say. if they have no interest inleft politics - and are a new more ground-up labour party for the post industrial working class - why do they hang arounf here?