Free Will: the poll!

[Cid]

Ofcourse its worth having a word for.

If our brains are just physical objects.. then all that goes on in them is 'things that happen because another thing happens' therefore no one can intervene with the process of thier mind... what ever happens is always determined by prior events.

Or you could say that the brain sees <past events> and computes <response correct to situation>. You say you cannot intervene with the process of your mind, but the process of your mind is you, so - by even acknowledging a 'process of mind' - you are disproving your own argument. Max, your death argument is frankly ridiculous, I can't believe you even claim to have studied philosophy.

 

[max_freakout]

but the process of your mind is you, so - by even acknowledging a 'process of mind' - you are disproving your own argument. .

do you control this process of mind?

 

[smmudge]

I think we have the free will to believe in determinism...or maybe we believe in free will because of determinism

I like to believe in free will because it makes me consider the implications of and take responsibility for my actions.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

I like to believe in free will because it makes me consider the implications of and take responsibility for my actions.

does it? i dont believe in free will, and im still a consideration, thoughtful and responsible person. it has had a very positive impact on my life.

saying that sounds very much like a christian saying atheists cant have proper morality, y'know?

 

[bodach]

What does 'believe' mean

 

[chainsaw cat]

What about people who have near-death experiences?



But anyway, the important point is, it is actually TRUE that you are going to die at one particular time, and therefore determinism is true, but you can't know this for certain until you actually die

It is UNTRUE that death could occur at anytime, and yet this belief is what freewill assumptions are based on

No, death could occur at any time. Meteorites, mad snipers, embolism, aneurism, bad prawn.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

What does 'believe' mean

sorry, yeah a bit clumsy with my language there. i guess i mean, the model that rings a bell with me, is the one where free will only exists in a transcendent form through a higher power- and is not governed by the author of my thoughts.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

No, death could occur at any time. Meteorites, mad snipers, embolism, aneurism, bad prawn.

but in retrospect, on the grave stone, it was the prawn, in 1900.

 

[Cheesypoof]

anyone that doesnt understand that they have free will is a coward.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

whys that?

 

[bodach]

i guess i mean, the model

Free your mind.

 

[Cheesypoof]

whys that?

conscience.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

Free your mind.

is your mind free?

 

[bodach]

Free your mind.

is your mind free?

That's kind of relative.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

very!

but also, in another way, its as free as anyone elses.

 

[Cid]

do you control this process of mind?

Not sure there's any point in this, but hey I've just had a night of ska punk. First we look at the brain; let's start with linguistics. Now, I'm sure - as a philosopher - you're familiar with Chomsky/Pinker's ideas on language so I won't bother laying out all the proofs for the mind not being strictly linear. Given that this seems likely we can rule out the idea that our future is strictly and directly determined by the past with no influence from 'the mind'. So the question is whether the mind is 'you' or a set of subconscious instincts... Can't answer that I'm afraid, but - let's face it - we seem to be a sum of our parts, which implies that separating mind and 'us' is quite probably false. So, on the face of things, yes you control your mind because you are your mind.

 

[bodach]

its as free as anyone elses.

What does 'free' mean

 

[bodach]

Now, I'm sure - as a philosopher.

Plank.

 

[i-am-your-idea]

Given that this seems likely we can rule out the idea that our future is strictly and directly determined by the past with no influence from 'the mind'. .

not saying that the mind doesnt have an influence on its future..
just that any influence it has is predetermined.

 

[bodach]

not saying that the mind doesnt have an influence on its future..
just that any influence it has is predetermined.

Is that a 'something'

 

[i-am-your-idea]

what do you mean ?

 

[bodach]

what do you mean ?

Could it be something or nothing, bearing in mind...

 

[i-am-your-idea]

yeah!

 

[bodach]

You're my idea

 

[i-am-your-idea]

 

[smmudge]

not saying that the mind doesnt have an influence on its future..
just that any influence it has is predetermined.

Predetermined by what? For what?

 

[max_freakout]

No, death could occur at any time. Meteorites, mad snipers, embolism, aneurism, bad prawn.

it is only possible to believe this before you die

at the moment of death, or perhaps sometime shortly before, it becomes impossible to hold this belief


the rest of your life is only going to go one way, just as the life you have lived since you were born has only gone one way

 

[max_freakout]

Not sure there's any point in this, but hey I've just had a night of ska punk. First we look at the brain; let's start with linguistics. Now, I'm sure - as a philosopher - you're familiar with Chomsky/Pinker's ideas on language so I won't bother laying out all the proofs for the mind not being strictly linear. Given that this seems likely we can rule out the idea that our future is strictly and directly determined by the past with no influence from 'the mind'. So the question is whether the mind is 'you' or a set of subconscious instincts... Can't answer that I'm afraid, but - let's face it - we seem to be a sum of our parts, which implies that separating mind and 'us' is quite probably false. So, on the face of things, yes you control your mind because you are your mind.

The model of determinism i have incorporated is not causal determinism, i am not saying things are determined by the past, if that was true, there could be no such thing as a random event


But this statement "you are your mind" does not solve the problem, it does not answer the question do you control yourself?

 

[i-am-your-idea]

So, on the face of things, yes you control your mind because you are your mind.

if you think your using the same sort of 'you's in this sentence, then how can you say-

'you' get on 'your' nerves or 'you' are more 'yourself'


how is that different from saying 'a cat is a cat' ?

 

[i-am-your-idea]

Predetermined by what? For what?

by everything & nothing.

saying 'for what?' suggests it needs a reason. why do you think it needs a reason?