Free Will: the poll!

[max_freakout]

It is a scientific FACT that if we are all physical bodies (without a non-physical soul of some sort) it is impossible for us to have free will..

I think it is a logical fact that, whether we have a soul or not, free-will is impossible

Unless that soul is somehow able to transcend infinite-regression

 

[The Groke]

What about people who have near-death experiences?

What about them?

But anyway, the important point is, it is actually TRUE that you are going to die at one particular time

*gasp*

Stop the press!

and therefore determinism is true

To an nth an utterly meaningless degree.

but you can't know this for certain until you actually die

huh?

It is UNTRUE that death could occur at anytime, and yet this belief is what freewill assumptions are based on

But the knowledge of ones ultimate demise does not prove the supposition that all one's actions until that point are somehow predetermined.

 

[edwin]

I think it is a logical fact that, whether we have a soul or not, free-will is impossible

Unless that soul is somehow able to transcend infinite-regression

i understand that if a soul was non-physical... with our logic here on earth... it shouldn't have free will...

but i think if we did have a non-physical soul it would already be beyond our logic.. as it is non-physical (which is something we can't comprehend)... so if it's all ready managed to be non-physical... whats to say it can't have free will..

but i agree that with our logic.. it is impossible to have a non-physical soul... or free will...

i just think that our logic is most likely wrong... or that free will is incomprehensible.

 

[max_freakout]

What about them?

They are living proof that you were wrong when you said:

Here is a statistic for you: apparently, 100% of people that cease to live become "dead"

It's true.

But the knowledge of ones ultimate demise does not prove the supposition that all one's actions until that point are somehow predetermined.

If your death is determined, then surely everything else you ever do is? Because death is the last thing that ever happens to you

 

[The Groke]

i understand that if a soul was non-physical... with our logic here on earth... it shouldn't have free will...

but i think if we did have a non-physical soul it would already be beyond our logic.. as it is non-physical (which is something we can't comprehend)... so if it's all ready managed to be non-physical... whats to say it can't have free will..

but i agree that with our logic.. it is impossible to have a non-physical soul... or free will...

i just think that our logic is most likely wrong... or that free will is incomprehensible.

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Fwabble!

 

[edwin]

Max freakout is right... the paradox of free will is something that philosophers have always struggled with...

you don't nee a degree in rocket science to realise that it is logicaly impossible to have free will.

the problem occurs.. when we try and grapple with the fact that it seems we can choose what we do...

 

[El Jefe]

If your death is determined, then surely everything else you ever do is? Because death is the last thing that ever happens to you

Do you really believe this statement has any validity whatsoever?

 

[Maurice Picarda]

What's your definition of free will then? It's clear that when most people talk about it they are referring to something non-material, and believe that explaining everything in material terms eliminates the will. If your version is different I'd be interested to know how you define it.

I'd contrast free will with forced decision-making, in an appropriate context. There are various human experiences of choice or compulsion, and "free will" describes a particular experience of this type.

I don't think that there's a phenomenological experience of volition which is radically different from other kinds of experienced choice or behaviour, and I can't see anything special about it which leads to the loony dualism that appears on this thread.

I suppose that "free will" is a useful phrase for an aspect of human experience, which has unfortunately developed into a loaded abstract term. You can undermine or collapse most abstract concepts if you want to, without anything very important being demonstrated.

 

[The Groke]

They are living proof that you were wrong when you said:








If your death is determined, then surely everything else you ever do is? Because death is the last thing that ever happens to you

Post hoc ergo propter hoc

 

[edwin]

Do you really believe this statement has any validity whatsoever?

i swear to god... i don't understand why so many people can't get the concept of determinism.. max freakout is on the right track for gods sake.

educate yourself: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

"Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Determinism may also be defined as the thesis that there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future."

 

[El Jefe]

Max freakout is right... the paradox of free will is something that philosophers have always struggled with...

No. Max Freakout may be right about the absence - ultimately - of free will. But the way he gets there, and the conclusions he draws, are bullshit

 

[max_freakout]

Do you really believe this statement has any validity whatsoever?

yes it's obviously true

consider the specific time in the future when you die, then trace a line back through your life


your life from now until you die is only going to happen in one specific way

 

[edwin]

No. Max Freakout may be right about the absence - ultimately - of free will. But the way he gets there, and the conclusions he draws, are bullshit

possibly..

 

[Maurice Picarda]

consider the specific time in the future when you die, then trace a line back through your life
your life from now until you die is only going to happen in one specific way

So what?

 

[max_freakout]

im a convert to the quantum-physics model of the 4D block-universe, it makes perfect sense

 

[edwin]

i think max freakout has the right idea but is explaining it with bad examples.

 

[max_freakout]

So what?

So, determinism is true, but you dont actually experience this undeniably until you die

 

[max_freakout]

block-universe determinism isnt the same as the causal-determinism model the wiki page is about

causal determinism doesnt allow for random events, this model does

 

[max_freakout]

i think max freakout has the right idea but is explaining it with bad examples.

i use the example of death as it's the one that makes the most sense to me

 

[Maurice Picarda]

So, determinism is true, but you dont actually experience this undeniably until you die

Sorry, Max, but I don't think you should be allowed to use language any more. All your words should be confiscated by an appropriate authority, leaving you with just signs and grunts. You won't trip yourself up with those. It's for your own good.

 

[The Groke]

"Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and behavior, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Determinism may also be defined as the thesis that there is at any instant exactly one physically possible future."

Is this something actually worth having a word for?

"Something happens because something else happened"

Not sure what that has to do with the predetermination of any of the choices which lead up to a "something" happening.

Actually, this makes my head itch - I know fuck all about "philosophy" but finding increasingly more obtuse ways to state the fucking obvious is surely not worthy of the label.

 

[max_freakout]

Sorry, Max, but I don't think you should be allowed to use language any more. All your words should be confiscated by an appropriate authority, leaving you with just signs and grunts. You won't trip yourself up with those. It's for your own good.

in short:

death proves determinism

 

[The Groke]

in short:

death proves determinism

Assuming a given, and utterly pointless, definition of determinism yes.

 

[El Jefe]

in short:

death proves determinism

It doesn't, you know.

 

[The Groke]

you know.

He doesn't.

Therein lies the problem.

 

[max_freakout]

He doesn't.

Therein lies the problem.

but you just said it did?

 

[The Groke]

but you just said it did?

I meant generally.

 

[edwin]

Is this something actually worth having a word for?

"Something happens because something else happened"

Not sure what that has to do with the predetermination of any of the choices which lead up to a "something" happening.

Actually, this makes my head itch - I know fuck all about "philosophy" but finding increasingly more obtuse ways to state the fucking obvious is surely not worthy of the label.

Ofcourse its worth having a word for.

If our brains are just physical objects.. then all that goes on in them is 'things that happen because another thing happens' therefore no one can intervene with the process of thier mind... what ever happens is always determined by prior events.

Many people believe we do infact have free will.. hence a word is needed for the philosophy that argues we don't.

You say it's obvious... well ofcourse it is.. i just can't believe that so many people don't understand and also follow it.

 

[Maurice Picarda]

Ofcourse its worth having a word for.

If our brains are just physical objects.. then all that goes on in them is 'things that happen because another thing happens' therefore no one can intervene with the process of thier mind... what ever happens is always determined by prior events.

Many people believe we do infact have free will.. hence a word is needed for the philosophy that argues we don't.

You say it's obvious... well ofcourse it is.. i just can't believe that so many people don't understand and also follow it.

Your words, as well. Come on sonny, hand them over. Don't make it harder on yourself. Keep your nose clean, and you'll probably be given some concrete nouns back in five years.

 

[Brainaddict]

I'd contrast free will with forced decision-making, in an appropriate context. There are various human experiences of choice or compulsion, and "free will" describes a particular experience of this type.

I don't think that there's a phenomenological experience of volition which is radically different from other kinds of experienced choice or behaviour, and I can't see anything special about it which leads to the loony dualism that appears on this thread.

I suppose that "free will" is a useful phrase for an aspect of human experience, which has unfortunately developed into a loaded abstract term. You can undermine or collapse most abstract concepts if you want to, without anything very important being demonstrated.

Mmm, I can agree with free will being a type of experience, and not having any particularly philosophical implications - or no more than any other.

I think what I said was very similar to what you're saying.