littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
The truth is, df, that as with any nation-builder, you would need to consciously create Englishness. At the moment, I just don't think it exists, really.
Nation building is seldom a pretty business.
Free England Party Discussion
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Nation building is seldom a pretty business.
Yes to a degree but I think the onus is on the person that moves into a community at the end of the day. I think the host community should obviously accept the person and not stomp on them for being different, but ultimatley if you move somewhere and are completly at odds with the existing community then you do have to ask yourself why you are there.
I think it just comes down to being respectful of your neighbours at the end of the day.
I'd say every culture has it's own type of society. Try living abroad and looking back at England and it is glaring obvious. Of course we share many traits with other countries but a myriad of variables in English society are what make it "English" and that includes the sterotypes.. fish and chips anyone.
Cultures of course evolve and absorb incomers and often fuse the best of their traditions/culture into the larger host culture. You can see this with cuisine for example. Curry somewhat obviously comes to mind.
I use the term 'culture' to refer to the customs practiced by those in a particular society.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Which in the case of England is a very wide variety of customs.
I could take all new immigrants to their first proper English squat party if you like.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm Welsh. I struggle to think of any important cultural difference between the Welsh and the English.That always makes me chuckle. Try asking anybody who isn't English what they think.
Language, for a start. Even though the British have done a fairly good job of wiping that out, it seems to be coming back.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I'm one of the majority Welsh who don't speak Welsh. I'd like to but there it is.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I think it comes across initially as a bit confused and inconsistent, with a bunch of "free market" policies like medicare, fully privatised education, lower tax on business and also a bunch of more "socialistic" ones.
On a skim of the actual policy document though the latter mostly seem to melt away into neo-liberalish "private sector does it but government funds it" stuff, and there's a big blow of the old-school Tory dog-whistle there as well; tough on crime, put the family first, stop immigration now etc. Section 8 certainly caught my eye, given that not only is it opposed to "any form of discrimination against the ethnic English" (the poor things, so discriminated against) but it seems to want to say "repeal discrimination legislation" but can't quite manage it. I can't think of another actual policy implication from 8.2. Even uses the phrase "political correct madness" (sic).
I was hoping that it wouldn't descend into the usual but it does seem to. Oh well.
On a skim of the actual policy document though the latter mostly seem to melt away into neo-liberalish "private sector does it but government funds it" stuff, and there's a big blow of the old-school Tory dog-whistle there as well; tough on crime, put the family first, stop immigration now etc. Section 8 certainly caught my eye, given that not only is it opposed to "any form of discrimination against the ethnic English" (the poor things, so discriminated against) but it seems to want to say "repeal discrimination legislation" but can't quite manage it. I can't think of another actual policy implication from 8.2. Even uses the phrase "political correct madness" (sic).
I was hoping that it wouldn't descend into the usual but it does seem to. Oh well.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Thing is, I lived in a very monocultural society for a little bit, and one of the things I like most about Britain is its cultural diversity. I oppose any attempt to limit that diversity by imposition from above.
editor
hiraethified
That makes even less sense than your last one, I'm afraid.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I didn't read that bit. 'ethnic English'? Get to fuck.
editor
hiraethified
What are the customs practised by English people that define their 'Englishness' please?
Language is the major one that comes to mind, slang, accent, Welsh literature and history. Of course being neighbours and part of a politcal union for a long time has had an affect upon merging out some of the differences. However I'd say they are still very noticible.
Take England and Scotland and they get greater, and even more so with Ireland. Once you reach non-English speaking nations across the channel then they obviously become even more noticable.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I know this point is not new, but the entire history of this island is rife with examples of passive and aggressive influxes of different peoples. With these people came traditions, ideas, culinary influences, language bleed through and all of that stuff.
Any appeal to englishness has to accept that there's no real hard and fast definition for an englishman save his passport details.
Any appeal to englishness has to accept that there's no real hard and fast definition for an englishman save his passport details.
Again, that policy document was the opinion of one member who took the time to create a draft of what they thought our manifesto should be. I was under the impression there was a disclaimer to that effect but it may have disappeared in the recent site re-shuffle.
editor
hiraethified
The British didn't try and wipe out Welsh. It was predominantly the English.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
A mongrel nation. And all the better for it.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Do you recognise such an entity as an 'ethnic Englishman/woman'? If so, how would I recognise one?
Editor I'm actually fairly surprised you had to ask that? Out of interest do you live in England?
Having said that I think if people had asked me that when I was living in England I would have had to sit and think about it. Many of the things we take for granted or are second thoughts can seem very alient to those not from England/having lived there.
Whatever the English happen to feel like practising.
This denial of the English an identity is a disastrous idea. Without an identity there is no community. Without a community there is no solidarity. Without solidarity there is nothing.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Mate, if you're going to have a website for a party and publish a policy document on it, you need to make sure that document reflects what your party promotes. Delete it if it doesn't.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I would say that a native of Bristol has much more in common linguistically and culturally with a native of Newport than a native of, say, Newcastle.
Someone who considers themselves to be an ethnic English person would be an ethnic English person in my book. And don't try and claim that someone from the other side of the world could claim to be English even though their ancestors are all Native American. It's not going to happen.
I'm not sure I agree with you there to be honest. I would say they have more in common with folks from Somerset/Devon/Gloucestershire, but I think there is a marked difference between England Wales, and hell all the better for it. I've always enjoyed my trips to the West Country and Wales
.I agree, and I'm going to argue that point strongly when I meet with the National Executive Council in June.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
i don't usually quote wikipedia, but in this case, I think the first sentence of their entry on ethnicity is apposite:
(my bold)
The bit I've emboldened is important. If you see yourself as ethnic English but nobody else who sees themselves as ethnic English accepts you, then you're stuffed.
Well, yes, that ties into what I was saying earlier.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Right, now do you see yourself as 'ethnic English', and if so, what common heritage would you consider necessary in another for you to identify them as a fellow 'ethnic English'?
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