Free England Party Discussion

[DotCommunist]

I believe the term for our party is 'civic nationalist'. The same sort of civic nationalism that has overthrown the British Empire (and various other empires) in countries across the world and is now threatening to give the death blow to the Empire, on its home soil. I personally draw a lot of inspiration from Mustafa Kemal and the Republican People's Party he founded, although I think their nationalism has become less pleasant in recent years.

The empire died a long time ago tbf. The Suez Canal thing was a final nail to the coffin in honesty. The only empire extant on the world stage is surely the USA-they won't accept the mantle of course but cultural and fiscal hegemony enforced by armed operations is empiricist behaviour.

 

[Dead Flag]

Hmmm. A rather authoritarian chap was old Ataturk – he had a very narrow idea about what is and isn't Turkish. A good secularist, though. I presume this new England would be a republic?

That's up in the air too, unfortunately. We definitely have a strong republican presence in the party (including yours truly, naturally).

 

[littlebabyjesus]

That's up in the air too, unfortunately. We definitely have a strong republican presence in the party (including yours truly, naturally).

Thinking about it, it would have to be a republic. The current royal family would never consent to the breakup of the kingdom.

 

[TomPaine]

Where do you guys stand on all this database/id card crap and the CCTV and what have you?

 

[Dead Flag]

Where do you guys stand on all this database/id card crap and the CCTV and what have you?

We don't have an official policy but I didn't hear a positive voice in favour of ID cards when I brought the topic up.

 

[DotCommunist]

Any discussion around the recent benefit reforms?

 

[Dead Flag]

Any discussion around the recent benefit reforms?

A little. A basic income scheme was suggested to replace benefits, and there was also another suggestion that people on benefits could perform a type of community service in return for more money.

 

[TomPaine]

A basic income scheme was suggested to replace benefits

I think there was a thread on here recently about this.

that people on benefits could perform a type of community service in return for more money

So basically a job?

 

[Dead Flag]

It would only be temporary but in a way, yes. I do think that a system in which no use can be found for a human being is quite an inefficient and inhumane one.

 

[DotCommunist]

A little. A basic income scheme was suggested to replace benefits, and there was also another suggestion that people on benefits could perform a type of community service in return for more money.

Citizen wage is a good idea. The idea of CS in exchange for top-ups is also interesting but it would mean that people already involved in CS work have new competition unless you fancty going FDR new deal style and creating CS projects for a voluntary workforce.

 

[editor]

Migration to England should be entering English society, not forming a mini exclave of poverty.

Could you define "English society" please?

 

[Dead Flag]

Citizen wage is a good idea. The idea of CS in exchange for top-ups is also interesting but it would mean that people already involved in CS work have new competition unless you fancty going FDR new deal style and creating CS projects for a voluntary workforce.

I'd have no reservations about going FDR new deal style, personally.

Could you define "English society" please?

The community, the environment in which citizens live, work and socialise.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The community, the environment in which citizens live, work and socialise.

Again, too vague to mean anything really. But this last word worries me a lot. Do mean that you somehow oppose multicultural ideas? Would immigrants be expected to socialise with their new neighbours?

As I said before about Ataturk, he was authoritarian and had very definite ideas about what it meant to be Turkish. I reject the notion that such a thing as Englishness really exists. I certainly don't want to be told by someone else what it might be.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Question:

What, in your opinion, is it that unites the English in a way that makes them a nation.

 

[TomPaine]

Do mean that you somehow oppose multicultural ideas? Would immigrants be expected to socialise with their new neighbours?

Surely you would expect people moving to England to want to socialise with their neighbours? There is a difference between forcing somebody and a reasonible expectation that people will want to be part of the community?

I'd say the phrase "multiculturalism" is just as empty.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Surely you would expect people moving to England to want to socialise with their neighbours?

Nope. Absolutely not. It is for the private individual to decide with whom and how they want to socialise. None of my damn business.

 

[Dead Flag]

Again, too vague to mean anything really. But this last word worries me a lot. Do mean that you somehow oppose multicultural ideas? Would immigrants be expected to socialise with their new neighbours?

As I said before about Ataturk, he was authoritarian and had very definite ideas about what it meant to be Turkish. I reject the notion that such a thing as Englishness really exists. I certainly don't want to be told by someone else what it might be.

I'm not suggesting we have police go round knocking on the doors of the neighbours of immigrants to check whether they've popped over for a cup of tea in the past month. I just think we should encourage immigrants to become part of the community.

I'm opposed to multiculturalism in the sense of segregationist 'white people have one culture and black people have another' attitudes. I believe we should encourage cultural and racial intermixing and when two cultures and peoples exist side by side but in isolation from each other it's a crime against humanity.

 

[editor]

The community, the environment in which citizens live, work and socialise.

And what particular traits make it uniquely English, please?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'd say the phrase "multiculturalism" is just as empty.

To me it means something very definite. It means that a citizen of the UK is just that and nothing more. They live and work and don't piss other people off. Everything else about what they do is up for grabs.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

when two cultures and peoples exist side by side but in isolation from each other it's a crime against humanity.

I do agree with this. I'm just not sure what legislation can do about it.

 

[TomPaine]

Nope. Absolutely not. It is for the private individual to decide with whom and how they want to socialise. None of my damn business.

I never said it was any of your business. However as I also said you would think people moving to another country would want to socialise, even on the very basic level of speaking the native langaue in order to engage in simple stuff such as shopping.

I'm not one for telling people how to live their lives, what to believe in or how to dress. However I would think it odd to move somewhere and have absolutly no interest in the local culture.

 

[Dead Flag]

And what particular traits make it uniquely English, please?

English society exists wherever people call themselves English and accept one another as English citizens.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I never said it was any of your business. However as I also said you would think people moving to another country would want to socialise, even on the very basic level of speaking the native langaue in order to engage in simple stuff such as shopping.

I'm not one for telling people how to live their lives, what to believe in or how to dress. However I would think it odd to move somewhere and have absolutly no interest in the local culture.

I would think that odd, too. And I may well extend a hand of friendship. But I don't think it is something any government should have a policy on in those terms.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

English society exists wherever people call themselves English and accept one another as English citizens.

That doesn't actually mean anything.

 

[TomPaine]

To me it means something very definite. It means that a citizen of the UK is just that and nothing more. They live and work and don't piss other people off. Everything else about what they do is up for grabs.

What exactly does that have to do with culture though? And how can the above be achieved when you have cultures who are opposed to each other on say theological grounds living next to each other and tension bubbling over?

 

[editor]

English society exists wherever people call themselves English and accept one another as English citizens.

That makes no sense at all, I'm afraid. One person's definition of being an "English citizen" may be completely different to another's, and it may also be to the exclusion of other "English citizens."

 

[Dead Flag]

I would think that odd, too. And I may well extend a hand of friendship. But I don't think it is something any government should have a policy on in those terms.

I honestly believe that a sense of community is necessary to the continued survival of human civilisation. The point at which we can pass a dying stranger in the street and think nothing of it is the point at which we begin to lose confidence in our fellow human beings, stick our money under our bed and start arming ourselves with fully automatic weapons.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What exactly does that have to do with culture though? And how can the above be achieved when you have cultures who are opposed to each other on say theological grounds living next to each other and tension bubbling over?

That's where you need a strictly secular constitution. I am in no way opposed to integration. I very much welcome it – but integration is a two-way thing, not just immigrants accommodating themselves to the hosts, but the other way round too. All too often, integration is just another term for 'be like us, please'.

 

[TomPaine]

English society exists wherever people call themselves English and accept one another as English citizens.

I'd say every culture has it's own type of society. Try living abroad and looking back at England and it is glaring obvious. Of course we share many traits with other countries but a myriad of variables in English society are what make it "English" and that includes the sterotypes.. fish and chips anyone .

Cultures of course evolve and absorb incomers and often fuse the best of their traditions/culture into the larger host culture. You can see this with cuisine for example. Curry somewhat obviously comes to mind.

 

[Dead Flag]

That makes no sense at all, I'm afraid. One person's definition of being an "English citizen" may be completely different to another's, and it may also be to the exclusion of other "English citizens."

But where people consider themselves to be English citizens (I use the term citizens in a loose sense, really here it just means 'people') and are not considered to be English by others, there is not a society. There is a part of a society, and a group of unhappy and disenfranchised people.