Free England Party Discussion

[spring-peeper]

You'd have to split it by population I presume. As for currency, I would imagine everyone would use the pound until they either joined the Euro or drew up their own currency.

To add to the above, there is also a Cornish movement who want to be recognised as a separate politcal entity. Headaches abound!

The Cornish movement brings up a good point.

Let's say England separates from the UK, I wonder if parts of England decide to join with the other countries. Northern cities may actually prefer to joining Scotland instead. They may feel that they are culturally more Scotish than English - it could happen.

- and Cornwall can go it's own way!!!

 

[Dead Flag]

If there is demand for Cornish independence, or northern areas want to join Scotland, then so be it.

 

[TomPaine]

Meantime you'll hang around with crackpot rightwingers rather then helping construct that left?

Butchers, do you see though that there is space on the left for embracing some of subjects raised by these English groups e.g. calls for devolution etc? As discussed on the other thread for example that Show of hands band seem to have struck a cord with folks. It seems a shame that the far right should be allowed to capitalise on peoples disenfranchiment and try and take over cultural activites.
Plaid seem to have done a good job of steering the Welsh movement away from bigotry and petty nationalism?

 

[butchersapron]

I've spent enough time around the members of the Free England Party to know they're not crackpot right-wingers.

And i've spent enough time obsevering small party nutters to know that they do revolve around a far right agenda.

You don't belive in anything that they say as far as i can see, but they give you a badge saying 'head of' and you're gagging for it.

It's a toy party, i know that and you soon will.

 

[spring-peeper]

I've spent enough time around the members of the Free England Party to know they're not crackpot right-wingers.

No, but I'm betting that they are very passionate. As the leader of the youth section, it's this passion that you should be focusing on. It will easy to draw in the youth, they think with their hearts.

You really should research the Parti Quebecois history. Your website is very remenisant of theirs.

 

[TomPaine]

Let's say England separates from the UK, I wonder if parts of England decide to join with the other countries. Northern cities may actually prefer to joining Scotland instead. They may feel that they are culturally more Scotish than English - it could happen.

Sure. Although having family from Northern England and having lived there I doubt it very much somehow .

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers, do you see though that there is space on the left for embracing some of subjects raised by these English groups e.g. calls for devolution etc? As discussed on the other thread for example that Show of hands band seem to have struck a cord with folks. It seems a shame that the far right should be allowed to capitalise on peoples disenfranchiment and try and take over cultural activites.
Plaid seem to have done a good job of steering the Welsh movement away from bigotry and petty nationalism?

There is space for social issues yes, i've been arguing for them for the last 20 years, and i've been argung that space needs to be filled pronto.

 

[Dead Flag]

And i've spent enough time obsevering small party nutters to know that they do revolve around a far right agenda.

You don't belive in anything that they say as far as i can see, but they give you a badge saying 'head of' and you're gagging for it.

It's a toy party, i know that and you soon will.

I've demonstrated several times that my political beliefs are perfectly compatible with the agenda of the Free England Party, and I've also demonstrated that they're not far-right any more than the SNP is. It seems like you've decided that since we're a small nationalist party, we must be like all the others, even though that contradicts the evidence presented to you.

 

[spring-peeper]

Sure. Although having family from Northern England and having lived there I doubt it very much somehow .

I will take your word for it - that probably was a bad example. Would there be the similar issues along the Welsh border?

 

[Dead Flag]

No, but I'm betting that they are very passionate. As the leader of the youth section, it's this passion that you should be focusing on. It will easy to draw in the youth, they think with their hearts.

You really should research the Parti Quebecois history. Your website is very remenisant of theirs.

Thanks for the advice!

 

[butchersapron]

I've demonstrated several times that my political beliefs are perfectly compatible with the agenda of the Free England Party, and I've also demonstrated that they're not far-right any more than the SNP is. It seems like you've decided that since we're a small nationalist party, we must be like all the others, even though that contradicts the evidence presented to you.

But they are not! They're not compatible at all. To you maybe. But you're an interested party. And i'm, not saying that your party is far-right, but that small nationalist parties inebvitably centre on far-right agendas due to the total lack of popular support that you have.

 

[TomPaine]

Would there be the similar issues along the Welsh border?

Yes. There is certainly a case for that on the Welsh/English border. the EDP had a campaign in Monmoth for it to re-join with England. It didn't do very well, however there was some interest. Reflecting on this, I think you would find some village either side of the border who may sway one way or another.
Unfortunatly the situation with devolution has caused a lot of tension over health issues on the Welsh/English which imo do risk bubbling over into petty racism.

 

[butchersapron]

I've demonstrated several times that my political beliefs are perfectly compatible with the agenda of the Free England Party, and I've also demonstrated that they're not far-right any more than the SNP is. It seems like you've decided that since we're a small nationalist party, we must be like all the others, even though that contradicts the evidence presented to you.

You've demonstrated that the FEP has no settled, principled or agreed political agenda whatsoever

 

[smokedout]

The fact is, I came to realise that England needed to be an independent nation in order to implement socialist policies.

so would you describe yourself as a national socialist then

(sorry cheap)

 

[smokedout]

Sure. Although having family from Northern England and having lived there I doubt it very much somehow .

im from yorkshire and exiled to london, but id pick scottish over soft southern twat english any day

although yorkshire nationalism is not uncommen either

 

[TomPaine]

im from yorkshire and exiled to london, but id pick scottish over soft southern twat english any day

Nice.

 

[frogwoman]

If there is demand for Cornish independence, or northern areas want to join Scotland, then so be it.

border changes = very dangerous. im not necessarily opposed to wales/scotland being independent but if you start getting a map and re-drawing boundaries that would be asking for trouble.

 

[Herbert Read]

im from yorkshire and exiled to london, but id pick scottish over soft southern twat english any day

although yorkshire nationalism is not uncommen either

Good man

 

[Belushi]

Yes. There is certainly a case for that on the Welsh/English border. the EDP had a campaign in Monmoth for it to re-join with England.

Their candidate Stephen Gash (sorry but )posted on here for a while.

And Im with froggy, once you start fiddling with borders all kinds of nastiness can follow.

 

[Belushi]

The fact is, I came to realise that England needed to be an independent nation in order to implement socialist policies.

You dont think that the prospects of socialism in England is weakened without the Welsh and Scots?

 

[frogwoman]

Yeah ...

My dissertation has been on this actually, among other tihngs. Fiddling with boundaries is very dangerous and should not be done

Countries should STAY INSIDE THEIR BORDERS Jesus

if areas of the north of england were going to join scotland, then what would happen to the english people living there? especially if this stuff was going to be organised on an ethnic basis?

Don't forget that an "independent England" and "independent Scotland" would likely as not be much poorer places than they are today - if scotland left the union, they'd have to reapply to join the EU, probably the same with England as well

 

[smokedout]

if areas of the north of england were going to join scotland, then what would happen to the english people living there? especially if this stuff was going to be organised on an ethnic basis?

you mean the southerners

we'd hang them and feed them to our sheep

 

[frogwoman]

one way of dealing with it i guess

 

[lewislewis]

'my' history as well LL .. it is just that i think that seperation by nation is not justified by saving the laguage and anything .. yes to culturalism .. npo to nationalism

you know as well as i do that welsh nationalism is a construct of the 18thc .. it helps no one really and creates a new false welshness .. are you sh'mae or sut dach chi? are you ugain or are you dau ddeg? taught welsh now, again as you know, is based on the Israeli re creation of Hebrew .. is is a false re-creation

look we all want to save the best bits of our cultures .. but did a 'free state save Irish? no .. it is not nations that do good but positive progressive politics

nationalism STOP the creation of a international progressive movement .. sure you can have as much contact at teh activists level but as soon as theshit hits teh fan you are simply encouraging racism

btw where is the border? i have i often wondered if you nats in your dreams drive, moshe dayan like, your tanks over into Euas ac Ergyn and past Croesyswallt to free Cymru dros Glawdd offa

hywl

I am finding it difficult to understand what you are talking about. All I can see is a bizarre diatribe peppered with random Welsh placenames.

As soon as you compare Welsh nationalism to Hebrew constructivism, you've lost the argument.

A Free State did not 'save' the Irish precisely for the reasons I have already described in this thread, which is why I advocate left-nationalism in Wales (rather than nationalism for its own ends). I have attempted to share my experiences, because the vast majority of people on this thread are based in England. It is extremely ignorant to wade in with vague pronouncements about 'nationalism' without having lived in communities here and understood what political parties standing on a Welsh nationalist ticket are advocating or representing.

 

[lewislewis]

Yes. There is certainly a case for that on the Welsh/English border. the EDP had a campaign in Monmoth for it to re-join with England. It didn't do very well, however there was some interest. Reflecting on this, I think you would find some village either side of the border who may sway one way or another.
Unfortunatly the situation with devolution has caused a lot of tension over health issues on the Welsh/English which imo do risk bubbling over into petty racism.

Good point- however the 'some' interest would most likely stem from the fact that a significant minority of the population in the 'Monmouth' area would be English national identifiers, and in that area there is some residual frustration about devolution and the Assembly (they heavily voted 'no' and are generally conservative British unionists). That said, it's worth nothing that the party advocating Welsh independence won more votes than the EDP in the regional list and the constituencies as well.

I heard a rumour that some English villages are disgruntled about not getting free prescriptions or free car parking at hospitals. I don't think it would become politicised though, these are generally wealthy communities we're talking about.

 

[durruti02]

I am finding it difficult to understand what you are talking about. All I can see is a bizarre diatribe peppered with random Welsh placenames.

As soon as you compare Welsh nationalism to Hebrew constructivism, you've lost the argument.

A Free State did not 'save' the Irish precisely for the reasons I have already described in this thread, which is why I advocate left-nationalism in Wales (rather than nationalism for its own ends). I have attempted to share my experiences, because the vast majority of people on this thread are based in England. It is extremely ignorant to wade in with vague pronouncements about 'nationalism' without having lived in communities here and understood what political parties standing on a Welsh nationalist ticket are advocating or representing.

what did you not understand?

- the bit where i said that YOUR concept fo wales is differerent form mine yet nationalism ( welsh as well as english ) dictate what national conciousness is to evreyone else

- the bit where i was using the idea of Cymru dros Glawdd Offa to say that when the nationalist genie os let out of the bottle you always end up with ethnic cleansing .. sure YOU would not support it .. but it will happen

- or the bit where i was pointing out that nationalism creates NEW languages and welsh has already been changed into a lower common denominator ( using the hebrew method )

- and are you honestly telling me you do not know the genesis of welsh nationalism?


look i was not bought up in wales but bought up in a house where welsh was spoken regularly and Plaid, Gwynfor, Saunders Lewis, 'the treachery of the blue books' and that my dads generation were the first who did not have to where the 'welsh not' sign for sepaking welsh, were as much a topic of conversation as the weather .. i understand well what yma o hyd means and i respect utterly what CYIG and all the other activists did to save the language .. and i do know pretty well what the different nat parties believe in and i have no more truck with so called left wing nationalism as right wing nationalism .. it all leads down the same route .. it is fundamentally about a bullshit concept of nations and nationalism ( have you read Hobsbawms book yet?) it is about division instead of bringing people together .. and the last thing we need at this moment in history is division based on false concepts

look i am totally in favour of autonomy for culture etc ... but i think the way to do it is NOT to divide one person from another by using false concepts but to create a progressive world where people are not descriminated against ..

 

[lewislewis]

what did you not understand?

- the bit where i said that YOUR concept fo wales is differerent form mine yet nationalism ( welsh as well as english ) dictate what national conciousness is to evreyone else

- the bit where i was using the idea of Cymru dros Glawdd Offa to say that when the nationalist genie os let out of the bottle you always end up with ethnic cleansing .. sure YOU would not support it .. but it will happen

- or the bit where i was pointing out that nationalism creates NEW languages and welsh has already been changed into a lower common denominator ( using the hebrew method )

- and are you honestly telling me you do not know the genesis of welsh nationalism?


look i was not bought up in wales but bought up in a house where welsh was spoken regularly and Plaid, Gwynfor, Saunders Lewis, 'the treachery of the blue books' and that my dads generation were the first who did not have to where the 'welsh not' sign for sepaking welsh, were as much a topic of conversation as the weather .. i understand well what yma o hyd means and i respect utterly what CYIG and all the other activists did to save the language .. and i do know pretty well what the different nat parties believe in and i have no more truck with so called left wing nationalism as right wing nationalism .. it all leads down the same route .. it is fundamentally about a bullshit concept of nations and nationalism ( have you read Hobsbawms book yet?) it is about division instead of bringing people together .. and the last thing we need at this moment in history is division based on false concepts

look i am totally in favour of autonomy for culture etc ... but i think the way to do it is NOT to divide one person from another by using false concepts but to create a progressive world where people are not descriminated against ..

I am not a cultural nationalist and English is my first language. I support an independent socialist Wales. You make some cogent points in your own way, but as soon as you talk about 'ethnic cleansing' you are into the realms of fantasy.

All of the political parties in Wales support the Welsh language and culture to various extents. The debate is about whether Wales should have more autonomy and eventually independence.

The bit I don't understand is where you say about 'letting the nationalist genie out of the bottle' and about 'ethnic cleansing'. I do not accept that you are familiar with the situation in Wales if you say such ridiculous things! Ethnic nationalism is not on the agenda here, even cultural nationalism has not really been prominent since Saunders Lewis. If I was really touchy I would take huge offence about those claims, but I am choosing not to take them too seriously...

You can't write off dozens of credible peaceful political causes (are the ERC in Catalonia not the biggest left party in that country?) just by saying about a Hobsbawm book!

 

[durruti02]

I am not a cultural nationalist and English is my first language. I support an independent socialist Wales. You make some cogent points in your own way, but as soon as you talk about 'ethnic cleansing' you are into the realms of fantasy.

All of the political parties in Wales support the Welsh language and culture to various extents. The debate is about whether Wales should have more autonomy and eventually independence.

The bit I don't understand is where you say about 'letting the nationalist genie out of the bottle' and about 'ethnic cleansing'. I do not accept that you are familiar with the situation in Wales if you say such ridiculous things! Ethnic nationalism is not on the agenda here, even cultural nationalism has not really been prominent since Saunders Lewis. If I was really touchy I would take huge offence about those claims, but I am choosing not to take them too seriously...

You can't write off dozens of credible peaceful political causes (are the ERC in Catalonia not the biggest left party in that country?) just by saying about a Hobsbawm book!

you do not understand 'genie in the bottle' re nationalism?! well that is really scary! of course there is little trouble now .. but 'wales' and 'england' were enemies for many centuries .. and there is still much bitterness from many people .. and this is the calmest, the best of times .. to embark on a course that creates artificial definitions and re inforces borders is insane

and Catalunya?? yes there is little racism .. but there is racism .. against the southerners, the andalusians and more understandable against the castilians .. and there have been bombings though few .. but as i understand there is virtually NO appetite for independance in Catalunya .. autonomy yes independnace no .. this is crucial differrence .. independance however is key to the idiotic and disaterous and ill fated basque struggle ..

and still have you read Hobsbawm book yet??

 

[glenquagmire]

(are the ERC in Catalonia not the biggest left party in that country?)

If you don't count the PSC.