Forward Wales in crisis

[niclas]

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English - to my knowledge he's working as a journalist for Socialist Worker in London. Don't tar an entire organisation on that basis - it might come back to bite yer arse

Udo's attempts to paint CG as a nationalist organisation are predictable and a bit lame. While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities. While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign.

CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP and within months the SWP had wound up the whole sorry show after ensuring that the alliance disintegrated into a very unhappy marriage. And when your partner gets abusive, you know it's time to walk out of the door - that's what CG and the SP did.

CG had many faults but it was consistently active in workers' struggles and sought to build unity at all times on the left. Bitter experience has demonstrated that building unity with organisations that take their orders from London is pointless.

I disagree with those who criticise the SWP for being mainly English ex-students. They also have some good Welsh working-class activists, e.g. in Neath, Blackwood and Cwmbran. But, when push came to shove, these comrades too opted for "internationalism" over "provincialism" (to quote Udo at his most revealing).

Forward Wales could have been a Welsh version of the SSP. It became Old Labour MkII. Despite that, it mobilised the successful campaign against stock transfer in Wrexham (and only last week the council admitted that tenants were still opposed as strongly as before), launched campaigns for free school meals and against the sell off of council housing, fought fascists trying to muscle in on the tail of the Caia Pk riots, won trade union affiliation from the RMT, initiated the anti-war campaign in Wrexham and came within 20 votes of winning 3 seats on Wrexham Council (only got one, but it only missed beating the council leader by 14 votes). Not a bad result in 18 months - I wonder if Respect can point to any similar successes?

Despite this, it failed. Socialists joined with their eyes opened and maybe should have seen it coming - but "better to have fought and lost than not have fought at all"... the experience gained will be put to good use.

 

[osterberg]

Just a small point - is this really relevant? No doubt parts of the Empire had people less poor then the working class of Manchester in the 19th c but that doesn't mean that those suffering under the yoke of imperial rule were not oppressed or indeed members of an oppressed nation.

Well yes but surely the basis of Welsh nationalism is that Wales is in some way being held back economically by England.
I have come across no convincing examples of present-day English oppression of the Welsh.
If you know of any please tell.

 

[lewislewis]

How can you have socialism in a state that is a remnant of colonialism?

Didn't the SWP support the African nationalist movements whilst also calling for socialism? Why can't they do the same in Wales?

Wales does exist Udo, I don't think many people in this country would agree with you that it doesn't. You need to realise that this world isn't fair, but I can't see it changing before someone presses the nuclear button. I'd rather die in an unjust, capitalist Wales than the artificial UK super-state.

 

[jannerboyuk]

Well yes but surely the basis of Welsh nationalism is that Wales is in some way being held back economically by England.
I have come across no convincing examples of present-day English oppression of the Welsh.
If you know of any please tell.

As i am not a welsh nationalist i wouldn't really know if the basis of welsh nationalism is any such thing. I was merely pointing out that imperialism is not merely an economic construct.

 

[nwnm]

Niclas - I think you deserve a point by point reply


1) “I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English “ Well I was - and the fact that the person who said it was representing Cymru Goch on the platform was kind of a give away….

2)“While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities.” Actually the SWP were involved in setting up one of the first support groups in the UK

3)”While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign“ The first person to be imprisoned in England for non-payment was in fact a member of the SWP, (his ‘Mackenzies friend’ was a Militant supporter) .


4)”CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP” Nope - CG walked out of the WSA annual conference after losing the vote on independence. They walked out during the lunch break. Not particularly politically astute; as nobody noticed that they didn’t return until conference finished! The SP left after losing the vote for candidate at an election hustings meeting. The SP later claimed this was ‘packed out’ by SWP members, an assertion strenuously denied by amongst others the Alliance for Workers Liberty - not exactly bed-fellows of the SWP; (not to mention the various non aligned WSA’ers present).

5)”Forward Wales could have been a Welsh version of the SSP. It became Old Labour MkII. Despite that, it mobilised the successful campaign against stock transfer in Wrexham (and only last week the council admitted that tenants were still opposed as strongly as before), launched campaigns for free school meals and against the sell off of council housing, fought fascists trying to muscle in on the tail of the Caia Pk riots, won trade union affiliation from the RMT, initiated the anti-war campaign in Wrexham and came within 20 votes of winning 3 seats on Wrexham Council (only got one, but it only missed beating the council leader by 14 votes). Not a bad result in 18 months - I wonder if Respect can point to any similar successes?” Lets see….we have an MP who won standing for RESPECT (not as an independent), 4 candidates who came second and quite a number who came 3rd in the General Election. I believe that with the last couple of defections from the New Labour we have around 10 councillors. We grew out of the anti war movement have one Trade Union General Secretary who’s a member (at least one other is sympathetic) and have a record of raising support for strikes such as Gate Gourmet, Rolls Royce, PCS, Sefton UNISON etc. Oh and we also initiated the 10,000 strong Unite Against Racism festival in Liverpool, after the murder of Anthony Walker. I think this places the achievements of Forward Wales in context.

6)”Despite this, it failed. Socialists joined with their eyes opened and maybe should have seen it coming - but ‘better to have fought and lost than not have fought at all‘... the experience gained will be put to good use” Actually you didn’t fight at all. You went along with a ban on members being allowed to sell newspapers etc - so that effectively members of existing organisations would either have to leave or dissolve their organisations to join Forward Wales - this is anathema to both the Scottish Socialist Party and RESPECT, which allows affiliated organisations to continue selling their literature.

The last thing we need now is for the left to dissolve into even smaller splinter parties; although I’m sure there are some people who are more than happy to reinvent the wheel endlessly (ever see a film called “The Incredible Shrinking Man?). Personally, I think RESPECT offers the best hope of uniting the left with hitherto unorganised sections of the working class. I don’t expect to convince you of this - but hope we can find ways of working together over issues that matter, and areas where we find agreement.

 

[rednblack]

glad to see CG walking out of the stupid forward wales project, i always had time for them - maybe they should look across the border at the iwca for some tips

 

[niclas]

NWNM, I think I too will have to reply point by point...

Niclas - I think you deserve a point by point reply


1) “I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English “ Well I was - and the fact that the person who said it was representing Cymru Goch on the platform was kind of a give away….

Can't argue with that.

2)“While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities.” Actually the SWP were involved in setting up one of the first support groups in the UK

Silly me - there I was thinking in a Welsh context, this being a Welsh board after all. The SWP was noticeable by its absence in the miners' support groups until a turn by the leadership in the last couple of months of the strike.

3)”While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign“ The first person to be imprisoned in England for non-payment was in fact a member of the SWP, (his ‘Mackenzies friend’ was a Militant supporter) .

Not the same thing (and again I was talking about Wales). Militant and CG (as well as anarchists and non-aligned socialists) understood the importance of the mass non-payment campaign while the SWP thought that getting council workers' unions to refuse to implement the poll tax was the way forward - it was a mistake and you should be big enough to acknowledge it. The SWP was nowhere to be seen in the anti-poll tax feds or the Welsh Campaign Against Poll Tax.

4)”CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP” Nope - CG walked out of the WSA annual conference after losing the vote on independence. They walked out during the lunch break. Not particularly politically astute; as nobody noticed that they didn’t return until conference finished! The SP left after losing the vote for candidate at an election hustings meeting. The SP later claimed this was ‘packed out’ by SWP members, an assertion strenuously denied by amongst others the Alliance for Workers Liberty - not exactly bed-fellows of the SWP; (not to mention the various non aligned WSA’ers present).

Not true - we went to the pub at lunchtime (not a walk out) and just never made it back! How could we have walked out when one of our members was elected to the editorial board of the WSA paper and continued to edit that for some months after the conference? CG officially left in a statement some time later. The underlying reasons why the SP left are, apart from the independence question, similar to CG - the SWP entered the WSA and treated it as one of their infamous front organisations. Anyone remember the fun had when the SWP tried to stop Welsh Socialist Voice from getting off the ground? It led to the resignation of all the independents, CG and SP members from the editorial cmttee.

5) Lets see….we have an MP who won standing for RESPECT (not as an independent), 4 candidates who came second and quite a number who came 3rd in the General Election. I believe that with the last couple of defections from the New Labour we have around 10 councillors. We grew out of the anti war movement have one Trade Union General Secretary who’s a member (at least one other is sympathetic) and have a record of raising support for strikes such as Gate Gourmet, Rolls Royce, PCS, Sefton UNISON etc. Oh and we also initiated the 10,000 strong Unite Against Racism festival in Liverpool, after the murder of Anthony Walker. I think this places the achievements of Forward Wales in context.

You don't get it, do you? I was talking in a Welsh context. To compare Respect in EnglandnWales with FW is nonsense and you know it. Respect in Wales has hardly set the world on fire, has it?

The last thing we need now is for the left to dissolve into even smaller splinter parties; although I’m sure there are some people who are more than happy to reinvent the wheel endlessly (ever see a film called “The Incredible Shrinking Man?). Personally, I think RESPECT offers the best hope of uniting the left with hitherto unorganised sections of the working class. I don’t expect to convince you of this - but hope we can find ways of working together over issues that matter, and areas where we find agreement.

It'd be interesting to know how RESPECT can do this more successfully than the WSA.
I have no intention of splintering into ever smaller parties and will happily work with any socialist on campaigns on which we can agree - but don't kid yourself that RESPECT's the only game in town on the left in Wales. Given the fractures in the "unity" coalition, it's only a matter of time before that splinters too.

 

[nwnm]

Here we go again -

1)“Silly me - there I was thinking in a Welsh context, this being a Welsh board after all. The SWP was noticeable by its absence in the miners' support groups until a turn by the leadership in the last couple of months of the strike.” That’s funny - I thought socialists were supposed to be internationalists, (presumably neither of us should have mentioned the SSP either…) We were active in Miners Support Groups in areas where we had members - there are still a layer of people around who joined the SWP during the dispute. We also continued selling papers at some of the pits we went to AFTER the strike up until they closed. At one pit on the last day the miners not only bought every copy we had - but invite the girls doing the sale in for breakfast in the canteen!

2)”Militant and CG (as well as anarchists and non-aligned socialists) understood the importance of the mass non-payment campaign while the SWP thought that getting council workers' unions to refuse to implement the poll tax was the way forward - it was a mistake and you should be big enough to acknowledge it. The SWP was nowhere to be seen in the anti-poll tax feds or the Welsh Campaign Against Poll Tax“ So you were not in favour of people taking industrial action against the poll tax then? There were a small number of strikes - we tried to spread them. Some were against implementing the poll tax, others focussed on adding the poll tax to wage demands. Obviously the ones based on implementation were the most political, but they fizzled out after a while. We WERE also involved in local anti poll tax Feds. In fact, we had quite a few delegates from Wales at the 2nd All Britain Anti Poll Tax Fed conference in Manchester, (but I am probably banned from mentioning that - as it was not held in Cymru….) Why do you try so hard to write us out of existence? Who leant you the air brush, Joe bloody Stalin?

3)”The underlying reasons why the SP left are, apart from the independence question, similar to CG - the SWP entered the WSA and treated it as one of their infamous front organisations. Anyone remember the fun had when the SWP tried to stop Welsh Socialist Voice from getting off the ground? It led to the resignation of all the independents, CG and SP members from the editorial cmttee“ You are right! CG and the SP left for exactly the same reasons actually - you lost the vote on something! Welsh Socialist Voice is an interesting case in point, and shows the difference in attitude to democratic decisions between ourselves and yourselves. At the conference we agued against setting up what became Welsh Socialist Voice. I personally thought it was a bit premature for such a small organisation to produce a newspaper, and that it might be financially crippling. I was in favour of further developing the newsletter which was already being produced, with a view to eventually producing a paper. We lost the vote, but got involved in producing and writing for the paper despite this. The editorial committee had 2 SWP members, 2 non-aligned members, 1 CG and 1 SP. 1 non-aligned member resigned citing other commitments, (there was also geographical/logistical problems in terms of meetings to decide content - the internet wasn’t as prevalent as it is now). Then CG and the SP dropped out. But WSV was still produced! Who by? The remaining editorial committee - the majority of whom were SWP. Who wrote for SWV? Well quite a lot of it was done by SWP members actually. Which area sold the most copies? Newport - which had a very large SWP contingent. Don’t even try to lecture me about democratic decision making pal.

4)”To compare Respect in EnglandnWales with FW is nonsense and you know it. Respect in Wales has hardly set the world on fire, has it?” Again your narrow nationalism astounds me. RESPECT in Wales is small but growing, The vote in the election was miniscule, but come on, FW wasn’t much better - not that dissimilar to the old WSA in fact. We also picked up a sizeable vote when we stood in a council by-election in Neath. But to talk of FW in the same terms as RESPECT as an entity is to have the FW tail Wagging a growing RESPECT pup.

5)”It'd be interesting to know how RESPECT can do this more successfully than the WSA.” Its doing it with a lot less internal wrangling for a start! And reaching into areas that the WSA was beginning to, before its collapse, via the anti war movement and the radicalisation of some sections of the Muslim communities as well as working around strikes and any other issues that crop up in working class communities. In fact, the way that the old Socialist Alliance in England got its only elected councillor in Sheffield. He is now of course a RESPECT Councillor.

 

[chilango]

As an ex SWP member I unreservedly and humbly apologise for once being a student.However I am Scottish and free of English taint.
Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?Oh and by the way I know loads of Welsh SWP members.

Nowt.

Just that people who are not from Wales and are based at the UofW are not likely to be the most credible in an arguemnet about the national question.

 

[chilango]

They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.

Only cos they aren´t allowed to put posters up otherwise.

When i was an SWP student organiser in Wales ( ) they never produced a single piece of publicity in Welsh.(only what i translated myself) Despite trying to set up branches in places like Neath and Aberystwyth.

That is ignorance, plain and simple.

 

[chilango]

I disagree with those who criticise the SWP for being mainly English ex-students. They also have some good Welsh working-class activists, e.g. in Neath, Blackwood and Cwmbran. But, when push came to shove, these comrades too opted for "internationalism" over "provincialism" (to quote Udo at his most revealing).

There are no doubt good Welsh working class activists.

BUt its "leading cadre" were in my time at least, not.

Crucially, they determined activity and policy (following Londons orders of course) which meant that they could never provide a credible challenge to, or engagement with nationalist ideas.

 

[nwnm]

Originally Posted by osterberg
They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.

Chilango said “Only cos they aren´t allowed to put posters up otherwise. When i was an SWP student organiser in Wales they never produced a single piece of publicity in Welsh.(only what i translated myself) Despite trying to set up branches in places like Neath and Aberystwyth. That is ignorance, plain and simple. There are no doubt good Welsh working class activists. But its "leading cadre" were in my time at least, not. Crucially, they determined activity and policy (following Londons orders of course) which meant that they could never provide a credible challenge to, or engagement with nationalist ideas.”

How many times can you contradict yourself in one day and still expect to be taken seriously? We either had publicity in Welsh or we didn’t, ( we had leaflets and advertised our meetings in Welsh as well as posters in the colleges. And lets not forget not all the colleges we were active in even implemented their bilingual policies….), you can’t have it both ways mate! We didn’t ‘try’ to set up a branch in Neath we have one! (We hope to relaunch one in Aber soon).How can you whinge about translating stuff? Doh….aren’t organisers supposed to erm organise things then? Presumably you wanted to be spoon fed publicity from London. There’s not much point whingeing about the lack of working class cred of the ’leading cadre’, as you claim to have been an ’SWP student organiser in Wales’ you would have been part of that cadre, and therefore part of the problem. Sounds like ’engaging’ with tippex’n’typewriters was a major challenge for you. As far as the SWP goes, its amazing that a thread that could be focussing on prospects for the left if Forward Wales does collapse turns into another lets rant about the SWP session. We must be ’reaching the parts other beers can’t’ otherwise you wouldn’t spend so much time slagging us off!

 

[chilango]

How many times can you contradict yourself in one day and still expect to be taken seriously? We either had publicity in Welsh or we didn’t,

No contradiction. We didn´t.

We didn’t ‘try’ to set up a branch in Neath we have one!

Okay.

(We hope to relaunch one in Aber soon)

Really?

.How can you whinge about translating stuff? Doh….aren’t organisers supposed to erm organise things then? Presumably you wanted to be spoon fed publicity from London.

Hmm. London send me hundreds of posters that i can´t use.

London can print stuff cheaper than me?

If all organisers were just making their own publicity than fine, happily "spoonfeed" me stuff in english but won´t bother doing stuff in Welsh?

There’s not much point whingeing about the lack of working class cred of the ’leading cadre’, as you claim to have been an ’SWP student organiser in Wales’ you would have been part of that cadre, and therefore part of the problem.

Yup. Like many others of my generation who left and/or were forced out by a leadership clique.

The student organiser at Cardiff and Glamorgan Unis both quit, the entire SWSS group at Cardiff quit too. Sound healthy?

Sounds like ’engaging’ with tippex’n’typewriters was a major challenge for you.

Er....no. but nevermind.

As far as the SWP goes, its amazing that a thread that could be focussing on prospects for the left if Forward Wales does collapse turns into another lets rant about the SWP session. We must be ’reaching the parts other beers can’t’ otherwise you wouldn’t spend so much time slagging us off!

The SWP are very relevent here as a major reason why there isn´t a a "Welsh Left" for the reasons debated above.

But keep to your wishful thinking if you like, and fail to learn from your organisations history and we´ll see what happens to your loyalty in a few years time...

 

[niclas]

the old Socialist Alliance in England got its only elected councillor in Sheffield. He is now of course a RESPECT Councillor.

I think you'll find it's Preston, but what the hell... there's only so many times I want to bang my head against a brick (shurely Brit? ) wall.

This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a "nationalist organisation". He (and I say this because his manner reminds me of a certain individual in Swansea SWP) may think he can misrepresent CG but this kind of name calling doesn't do much for his attempts to big up RESPECT's credentials as the inclusive party of the left.

It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).

 

[osterberg]

This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a "nationalist organisation". He (and I say this because his manner reminds me of a certain individual in Swansea SWP) may think he can misrepresent CG but this kind of name calling doesn't do much for his attempts to big up RESPECT's credentials as the inclusive party of the left.

It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).

I don't want to take sides in this little spat but I saw this on the IRSP website(CG's is 'under construction')

'Cymru Goch was formed in 1987 and fights for a Free Socialist Wales. Only the workers of Wales can free themselves from this joke called British democracy. '(my italics)
http://www.irsm.org/general/comrades/cymrugoch/

That sounds like a nationalist organisation to me.I don't know much about CG so I'm happy to be enlightened.

What happened at the Galloway meeting re Leanne Wood?I'm afraid I missed it.

Also it seems to me that Respect in Wales isn't worth arguing about as it doesn't really exist here.
It's a small narrow organisation mainly comprised of the SWP with Galloway as its figurehead which targets muslim communities in the English Midlands and the East-End of London who are angry(quite rightly)about the war.
It has very little appeal to the working class in the rest of the UK.Especially not in Wales.

Oh, I would be very surprised if chilango was ever an 'SWP student organiser'.Perhaps he just staggered past a Socialist Worker sale at uni 30 years ago.

 

[nwnm]

Chilango, you still claim we didn’t produce publicity material in Welsh, yet here’s GavinB in this very same thread, “They once did the opposite - and printed a load of stuff in Welsh to go to Newport, despite the town having some of the lowest levels of welsh speaking in the whole country. They were told by local members, but thought they knew better apparently.” Sounds like a good reason for getting people to do it locally eh?

You say “Hmm. London send me hundreds of posters that i can´t use. London can print stuff cheaper than me? If all organisers were just making their own publicity than fine, happily "spoonfeed" me stuff in english but won´t bother doing stuff in Welsh?” I hate to disillusion you further but all organisers do produce their own publicity. London printing prices cheaper than here? I don’t think so!

You go on to say “Yup. Like many others of my generation who left and/or were forced out by a leadership clique. The student organiser at Cardiff and Glamorgan Unis both quit, the entire SWSS group at Cardiff quit too. Sound healthy?” Sounds like something from a parallel universe more like! The SWP has never employed organisers on a on a college by college basis. You obviously think we are made of money. When exactly was this dream time you were living in?

Niclas wrote, “I think you'll find it's Preston, but what the hell... there's only so many times I want to bang my head against a brick (shurely Brit?) wall.” You got me bang to writes on that one guv - a slip of the keypads; or it could be the shape of things to come

He Also wrote of RESPECT, “It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).” Yet heres a quote from the John Marek - the guy you hitched your wagon to in Forward Wales, “On the left you have Plaid Cymru, but they have the aim of independence which denies them mass appeal….but there are more important matters to worry about. Defence of the public services is a key issue. We want to increase control over our health services and utilities” Or on the SSP “Their a pro independence party but we don’t take that view.”
On that programmatic basis YOU could join RESPECT!

Niclas also complained, “This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a ‘nationalist organisation’” judging by your replies to my posts he’s got a point!

 

[niclas]

A house built on sand

I see you're avoiding the question re Galloway and Leanne Wood - he said there was no place in Respect for people who supported Welsh independence (a policy made with the full consultation for which Galloway is famous).

That's why I think the problems of internal democracy facing FW are likely to be mirrored by Respect further down the line...

 

[nwnm]

a house built WITH sand (and cement and water....)

Actually Leanne asked for RESPECT not to stand in Wales because Plaid Cymru were a socialist organisation, and Galloway countered by pointing out they were a nationalist organisation, and true he did rail against their position on independence. But RESPECT (like the WSA, before it) has not got a position on independence. As John Marek put it - there are more important things to worry about.

In terms of the lack or otherwise of internal democracy in FW niclas, Cymru Goch is not exactly blameless in this. CG went along with a constitution which did not allow other political organisations to affiliate - unlike the SSP or RESPECT. In doing so you have left yourselves in the same position as the clandestine groups which used to operate within Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party. A position for which you were even prepared to drop the independence 'principle' which led you to break from the WSA, after the only conference where CG made their independence motion go to a vote (and lost; at previous conferences you always withdrew your motion after debating it in the interests of 'unity').

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Glamorgan uni had a rep???

Where?

I go to Glamorgan and had seen NOTHING about any of this advertised there at all

 

[steeplejack]

The student body at Glamorgan is just about the most politically apathetic and disinterested that I've ever encountered.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

True, dont see a problem with that though.Do you believe they should be obliged to be politically motivated just becuase they are students.
Many of them are so busy working their backsides off to keep themselves while in uni they dont have the time nor the incination to do anything else. They are there to study after all, not become campaigners if they dont want to be

 

[steeplejack]

I'm well aware of all that and no, they are under no obligation to be active.

It was just my observation. Are you always this arsy with people?

 

[osterberg]

Glamorgan uni had a rep???

Where?

I go to Glamorgan and had seen NOTHING about any of this advertised there at all

Presumably chilango refers to the dim and distant past ( or the dark corners of his fevered imagination).

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

I'm well aware of all that and no, they are under no obligation to be active.

It was just my observation. Are you always this arsy with people?

Not being arsey at all. Yu seemed to be slating Glamorgan students for being 'apathetic' Im just asking whether you think that they should be polictically motivated since you seem to see it as a negative trait they they arent interested.
I;d say the student body at glamorgan are also likely to be one of the most financially disadvataged student bodies in the country too and I think that makes a MASSIVE difference as to how they have to spend their time when not in uni

 

[steeplejack]

I was observing my own experience of them. I didn't offer a value judgement either way.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Apathatic and disinterested would seem pretty judgemental. Maybe they simply havent got the time to get involved in political argiung in the same way others do.
What exactly is your experience of them from which you base your observations?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Presumably chilango refers to the dim and distant past ( or the dark corners of his fevered imagination).

Possibly, if they did I;d love to know about it

 

[steeplejack]

What exactly is your experience of them from which you base your observations?

None of your business.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

so why make claims about the 'glamorgan student body' on a BB if you arent going to reveal what you base your observations on.
It makes you look laughable quite frankly. If anyone else posted stuff up here without being asked to quanify their opinion they'd be laughed at. what makes you think youre exempt?

 

[steeplejack]

I'm not remotely interested in your personal opinion of me.