Forward Wales in crisis

[niclas]

Judging from this report on seren.blogspirit.com, Forward Wales is in meltdown...


Forward Wales heads for oblivion
Forward Wales continues to implode after losing many of its leading activists including its sole councillor Dave Bithell, the National Secretary and International Organiser. Now the trade union organiser has quit.

The party's website has been "under construction" for the past four months - i.e. since the website organiser resigned - and members have just received their first written communication since the elections. It includes the minutes of the June 19 National Committee, which decided to change the name of the party from "Forward Wales, the Welsh Socialist Party" back to "Forward Wales". Dropping the socialist tag is a deliberate attempt to distance itself from the Scottish Socialist Party.

Not only is such a move against the party's rules - changes to the constitution can only be made at annual conference - but it took place without any prior consultation with the membership, who had no knowledge that such a step was even being considered.

Those who quit are citing disagreements with the political direction of the party - specifically a secret deal party leader John Marek struck with the Tories to stand a spoiling candidate in marginal Cardiff North at the recent General Election - as well as the lack of internal democracy in the party.

They are also disillusioned with Marek's performance in the Assembly, where he has put more emphasis on his role as deputy speaker than campaigning for his new party and winning affiliation from unions such as the RMT.

More locally, there has also been dissatisfaction with Marek's handling of the crisis surrounding the planned redevelopment of Wrexham Football Club's stadium, in which he has openly aligned himself with disgraced former chairman Mark Guterman who is hated by fans.

The activists who have left are re-grouping locally in the Wrexham Socialist Forum and include a quarter of the party's candidates in last year's council elections.

Fewer than 100 members remain in the party throughout Wales and the number of activists has dwindled dramatically.

One of the party's founder members told SEReN: "Forward Wales was born from an alliance of former Labourites and socialists who were united in wanting to challenge Labour's unhealthy grip on Welsh politics. Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

Forward Wales, which was almost exclusively concentrated in Wrexham and Clwyd South, managed impressive results in those areas in the council elections - standing candidates in more than half the borough's seats and gaining 23% of the vote. It also played a prominent role in campaigning against the sale of school playing fields and housing stock transfer, which Wrexham tenants rejected decisively.

The ex-member said: "The party was a very real threat to Labour in the north-east and had the potential to win over disillusioned left-wingers throughout Wales. But the party's dependence for its finances on John Marek meant it was vulnerable to an undemocratic clique surrounding him. This led to decisions on candidates being pushed through with no real debate or discussion - what Marek wanted, he got.

"There's no doubt Marek was very generous with his money - he stumped up many thousands personally to pay for the Assembly and the Westminster elections. But he failed to realise that real political change is based on building parties between elections - there was never any money forthcoming for that. The national secretary couldn't even get stamps to mail out to members at times!"

A picture emerges of key members quitting and many more peripheral members drifting away disillusioned with the party's failure to build on its early promise.

It's possible FW will limp on to the 2007 Assembly elections, partly because Marek can afford to fund another set of candidates and partly because Ron Davies wants a last crack at returning to political power. But a party that can't even stick to its own rules and keeps its few remaining members in the dark over key decisions does not have a credible future.

Attempting to build a party round a rebel ex-Labour politician ultimately proved to be a quick-fix solution that came unstuck. Respect should take note.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Good stuff

 

[lewislewis]

haha, i remember that guy saying to me how great Forward Wales were going to become. Fun times.

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

same here. The sooner Ron davies buggers off into oblivion the better, hes like a local sleb here. The archbishop of canterbury visited caerfilthy last weekend and the local paper printed not one thing about it despite a bit marquee being erected and a video screen a whole days event, kids activities , a real party atmosphere AND the archbishop making key statements about recent events which could have been a total key article for the esteemed Caerphilly Campaign .
Why I hear you ask? Becuase Ron fucking badgerbothering davies crawled out and did 'something' mildly interesting( I use the term sparingly and sarcastically) and the local paper crawled dtraight back up his arse( I hope the apologised to the badgers for their interuption)

 

[roger rosewall]

same here. The sooner Ron davies buggers off into oblivion the better, hes like a local sleb here. The archbishop of canterbury visited caerfilthy last weekend and the local paper printed not one thing about it despite a bit marquee being erected and a video screen a whole days event, kids activities , a real party atmosphere AND the archbishop making key statements about recent events which could have been a total key article for the esteemed Caerphilly Campaign .
Why I hear you ask? Becuase Ron fucking badgerbothering davies crawled out and did 'something' mildly interesting( I use the term sparingly and sarcastically) and the local paper crawled dtraight back up his arse( I hope the apologised to the badgers for their interuption)

It's fair comment that Ron Davis is a past it asswipe but why should anybody give a toss about the Arch witchdoctor of Canterbury?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

They should at least be given the opportunity to read about it in the local rag if they do give a toss though shouldnt they? You might not be religious or want to read about it but that shouldnt stop it being featured. Its not every day the archbishop of catherbury visits a small town, a huge video screen is erected, thousands turn up and listen to what he has to say.
Just becuase Ron does something pretty mediocre and un newsworthy he shouldnt take precedece over something that might deserve some coverage just becuase its ron and hes loved by the midguided idiots who live round here and the editor.Its a local paper which is supposed to feature local events, of which this was one
It was obviously important enough to the huge numbers of people who showed up on the day yet the local paper gave it no coverage becuase Ron called them to take photos of him doing something pathetic and unimportant

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Could the source of the split be over nationalism?

"Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

 

[chilango]

Could the source of the split be over nationalism?

"Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

So are CG going to go it alone again?

 

[roger rosewall]

They should at least be given the opportunity to read about it in the local rag if they do give a toss though shouldnt they?

Yeah sure whatever. Write a letter to the rag.

 

[roger rosewall]

Could the source of the split be over nationalism?

"Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

To be fair to Cymru Goch, which I would rather not be, they are involved in various real life campaigns. They are an activist group and have the usual concerns that activists have.

John Marek on the other hand is an old fashioned placeman who has never been involved with any kind of campaigning or trade union activism in his life. All the poor old sod wanted was a bunch of canvassers to back him until his retiremnt on the generous pensions granted our elected representatives. On the other hand CG wanted a vehicle for their campaigning and left nationalist politics.

I doubt the collapse of Backward Wales was really over politics at all. Marek has precious few and Davies substitutes his ego for a program. The various parts simply fell apart because there is nothing to unite them. Both lack any serious social basis and as such simply float around on the margins doomed to obscurity.

PS What is Charlie Kimbers "past history of Welsh language activism"? Just curious.

 

[Karac]

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.

Dont see why being "hostile to Nationalism" (though i think Ron Davies was more hostile to Tory rule of Wales) would rule out setting up a "Wales only organisation"

I dont know much about about Cymru Goch but i assume the attempt was to set up some sort of Welsh equivalent of the Scottish Socialist Party-something i would have supported if it got off the ground.

 

[chilango]

Dont see why being "hostile to Nationalism" (though i think Ron Davies was more hostile to Tory rule of Wales) would rule out setting up a "Wales only organisation"

I dont know much about about Cymru Goch but i assume the attempt was to set up some sort of Welsh equivalent of the Scottish Socialist Party-something i would have supported if it got off the ground.

hasn´t there been a couple of those? the WSA for example? and don´t they alwys split between left nationalists/republicans and the "Brit Left" who a) don´t take the national question in Wales seriously and b) whose local leadership is largely (though not exclusively) made up of English graduates from the University of Wales?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

I doubt the collapse of Backward Wales was really over politics at all. Marek has precious few and Davies substitutes his ego for a program. The various parts simply fell apart because there is nothing to unite them. Both lack any serious social basis and as such simply float around on the margins doomed to obscurity.

PS What is Charlie Kimbers "past history of Welsh language activism"? Just curious.

At an SWP day school in Cardiff on Welsh history, Charlie Kimber revealed that his first political activity was around agitating for Welsh language rights.

He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.

 

[chilango]

He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.

As someone else whose political debut was as amember of cymdeithas can I just be a bit peeved at the facile Saunders Lewis bit...have you read any of Cymdeithas´s maniffesto´s etc.? Where is the facsist influence? there ain´t any, so why bring it up?

 

[Karac]

hasn´t there been a couple of those? the WSA for example? and don´t they alwys split between left nationalists/republicans and the "Brit Left" who a) don´t take the national question in Wales seriously and b) whose local leadership is largely (though not exclusively) made up of English graduates from the University of Wales?

Probably true-the Swappies i knew in Cardiff and Swansea were all students or ex-students and exclusively English.

 

[Karac]

yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.

Total crap of course.
There was a discussion a month or 2 about this issue here-http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117160

 

[chilango]

Quick question:

How many Socialist Worker posters/placards have ever been printed in Welsh?

 

[LilMissHissyFit]

Yeah sure whatever. Write a letter to the rag.

Grow up

 

[osterberg]

Probably true-the Swappies i knew in Cardiff and Swansea were all students or ex-students and exclusively English.

As an ex SWP member I unreservedly and humbly apologise for once being a student.However I am Scottish and free of English taint.
Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?Oh and by the way I know loads of Welsh SWP members.

 

[osterberg]

Quick question:

How many Socialist Worker posters/placards have ever been printed in Welsh?

They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.

 

[Ben Bore]

He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.

Saunder Lewis was never a President or even a member of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.
It was his lecture 'Tynged yr iaith' (the fate of the language) that insprired the creation of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, mainly members of Plaid Cymru who were frustrated at the party's lack of action at safeguarding the language.
I think Saunders Lewis was critical of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, possibly because of their tactics (non-violent direct action), although this is a bit strange considering that he was a pacafist and also took part in the Penyberth bombing.

Seems that this guy Charlie Kimber wasn't that well informed.

Also worth a read, a blog post by a Cardiff Labour member about How unpleasant was Saunders Lewis?

 

[Gavin Bl]

They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.

They once did the opposite - and printed a load of stuff in Welsh to go to Newport, despite the town having some of the lowest levels of welsh speaking in the whole country. They were told by local members, but thought they knew better apparently.

I take it the latter point is ironic.

 

[Karac]

Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?.

Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies
By the way -is Piers still involved in the Cardiff SWP?

 

[Gavin Bl]

Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies
By the way -is Piers still involved in the Cardiff SWP?

I was a Welsh SWPer - but . . I . . was . . in . . England.

A few of them used to like telling me they could make anti-Welsh comments because I wasn't oppressed.

 

[osterberg]

I take it the latter point is ironic.

Er yes. No offence intended.Sorry.
Should have used one of these

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies

Firstly, it is well known that Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and was pretty reactionary and a rightwinger despite being artistically gifted.
If certain nationalists are in a state of denial about this, fair enough.

Actually the majority of SWP members in my branch are Welsh including the full-timer who was born and brought up in Cardiff, though they don't make a big deal about it - we are all internationalists not provincialists.

I have to say that when I joined the SWP, there were more people from Scottland who were in my branch than England.

Indeed, Karac must be living in England if he has never met a Welsh swp-er. Most of the leading members I know are Welsh and of the English ones, they may have been students, but donkey's years ago, and have lived in Wales for years.

You should maybe speak to one of the main candidates for leadership of the welsh-medium school Teachers' union who is a member of the SWP in Newport

Or maybe Karac's claim is something different.

I mentioned the irony of Cymru Goch accusing the SWP of having an Englishman speak at a debate (between CG, CPGB, SP and SWP) on the national question. The irony being that the SWP member in question was the only welsh speaker on the platform.

The reality is that Cymru Goch thought he was English, because they can't countenance the fact that somebody can be Welsh and reject their parochial nationalism - just as Karac thinks that the SWP in Wales are all English students because he can't handle the fact that some Welsh people might prefer working class politics to middle class nationalism.

It's quite odd, because the overwhelming majority of Welsh people also show little interest in nationalism. Where Plaid has had recent electoral success it has been by posing as a left-alternative to New Labour

I'm not even sure if "Wales" exists - South Wales is a completely different country with it's own distinctive culture and history to the West and North, but that's another debate

Face it comrades:

Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world

 

[Karac]

Firstly, it is well known that Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and was pretty reactionary and a rightwinger despite being artistically gifted.
If certain nationalists are in a state of denial about this, fair enough.

Totally wrong and you know it.

Indeed, Karac must be living in England if he has never met a Welsh swp-er. Most of the leading members I know are Welsh and of the English ones, they may have been students, but donkey's years ago, and have lived in Wales for years.

Ok ,point taken, i didnt do a survey or anything-just my personal experience.
Probably from having to put up with an annoying posh prat called Piers from Cardiff SWP one time.

just as Karac thinks that the SWP in Wales are all English students because he can't handle the fact that some Welsh people might prefer working class politics to middle class nationalism.

Firstly its a very small "some" and its hardly working-class politics either.
Id say that Plaids manifesto was to the left of your current bandwagon Respect.

[/QUOTE]

I'm not even sure if "Wales" exists - South Wales is a completely different country with it's own distinctive culture and history to the West and North, but that's another debate

Ahh now were getting there!
In the days when even the Tory party has a seperate Welsh section now-the staunchly Anglicist SWP even refuse to recognise that Wales exists.


[/QUOTE]

Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world

Plaid Cymru has probably got more working-class members in one branch than you have in Wales in total!
Your a shadow of the organisation you were 10 years ago in Cardiff-and you werent up to much then.
Real world!-what do you know about the real world?

 

[osterberg]

Ok ,point taken, i didnt do a survey or anything-just my personal experience.
Probably from having to put up with an annoying posh prat called Piers from Cardiff SWP one time.

I know the one of whom you speak and I share you're pain.

Udo has an irritating habit of winding people up on the question of nationalism.
I don't completely disagree with him but sometimes a little diplomacy and tact goes a long way.
I have absolutely no problem with the promotion of the Welsh language.People have the right to speak their own langauge.
Whether Saunders Lewis was a nazi or not is irrelevant to today's Welsh Nationalists who are clearly not nazis.
I'd be perfectly happy if the UK did break up.I'd have no problem with an independent Wales.
However I think that the main divisions in society are class not nationality.
As a fairly low paid worker living in Wales I've got a lot more in common with someone similar living in England than I do with the Welsh billionaire who owns the Celtic Manor hotel.
Also I don't think Wales can be said to be an oppressed nation.There a parts of England as poor as the poorest parts of Wales with the same problems.
As for Forward Wales I never thought they had much basis in reality to survive in the first place.
By the way how does Udo know Karac is a 'he'?Isn't such an assumption sexist? Not very right on.

 

[Gavin Bl]

Face it comrades:

Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world

Its done a pretty good job of saving the Welsh language.

Most valleys people I know hold to old labour values, but there is always an element of welsh nationalism mixed in there. Where I grew up in Merthyr people are generally pretty class conscious at a broad level, but they also also see the exploitation of the region as something done to them by the English establishment - the Iron Masters and so on.

It used to irritate me when I was in the SWP that this element was consistently down played cos it didn't fit with the party line - which was its own type of seedy wet dream.

 

[jannerboyuk]

Also I don't think Wales can be said to be an oppressed nation.There a parts of England as poor as the poorest parts of Wales with the same problems.

Just a small point - is this really relevant? No doubt parts of the Empire had people less poor then the working class of Manchester in the 19th c but that doesn't mean that those suffering under the yoke of imperial rule were not oppressed or indeed members of an oppressed nation.