Formula 1 is crap - discuss
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i_hate_beckham
Him From A Village
Not at all. Touring cars are protected up to the hilt with roll-cages and the latest saftey equipment, human legs are not. Fancy making a valid point?the B said:Bit like getting rid of two footed tackles from behind in football?
My cousin was doing Formula 3000 (or something), was meant to go on to do Formula 1 (he was a very good racer) but all the rich kids kept crashing into his car to make him lose the race and the car.
He couldn't afford it anymore. You have to have money and be ruthless to get anywhere which in my eyes makes it a crap sport.
He couldn't afford it anymore. You have to have money and be ruthless to get anywhere which in my eyes makes it a crap sport.
i_hate_beckham
Him From A Village
Yeah your dead right, the Minardi drivers have to pay for their drive where as the top drivers are paid shit loads to drive for their team. In no other sport would have that gulf between 20 teams.SubZeroCat said:
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
I was at Silverstone...outside of turn 1....I'll tell you no way was that race crap. The speed through the turns was stunning!
The McLaren was just quicker...the Renault wasn't bas you they had to lift much more through Copse than the McLaren and even the BAR. Plus, for some reason Renault have neve gone well there.
The McLaren was just quicker...the Renault wasn't bas you they had to lift much more through Copse than the McLaren and even the BAR. Plus, for some reason Renault have neve gone well there.
i_hate_beckham said:
Deliberate contact was never allowed, and never has been outside bangers and stock car racing.
The racing isn't as close now as it was, but it's still better than F1.
Things changed in the mid-90s after Alfa Romeo came along with a high-budget, rule-bending team and upped the ante in terms of aerodynamics. Rather than banning aerodynamic add-ons, TOCA tried to level the field by allowing everyone wings and splitters, but that meant more downforce, more grip and less close racing.
The decline of the BTCC from the late '90s (at its peak in 1994 there were ten manufacturer teams taking part) hasn't helped, because there are fewer top teams with competitive cars, and a structure of classes had to be reintroduced. Again, this militated against close racing.
Tin-tops aren't what they used to be, but that's down to increasing technology levels, rising costs and repackaging to make motorsport more media-friendly. It's the same story, up to a point, across all professional motorsport - open-wheel, tin-top and rallying - which is why I prefer amateur motorsport. It's much friendlier and less cut-throat, there's greater diversity and complexity, and it's often more competitive.
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
I agree - even back to about 1999/2000 season the BTCC was a great spectacle, but now i've lost all interest - it's all abiout Vauxhall, SEAT and Honda with hardly any privateers because of the cost.
It also doesn't help that TOCA change the rules constantly so you weren't allowed ETC/WTCC spec cars in the British series, but now you are.
Essentuially professional motorsport has been ruined by 3 people, via various channels such as ISC and the FIA: Max Mosely, Bernie Ecclestone and Dave Richards.
Bernie used to be decent because he was from F1, but then started setting crazy rules about bonds to even enter F1, aided and abetted by Mosely and his constant rule tinkering which pushed costs upwards.
Same with did Richards when he just ran Prodrive, and helped McRae win the world title, but now he owns media rights to rallying and was invovled in F1, sportscars etc.
It also doesn't help that TOCA change the rules constantly so you weren't allowed ETC/WTCC spec cars in the British series, but now you are.
Essentuially professional motorsport has been ruined by 3 people, via various channels such as ISC and the FIA: Max Mosely, Bernie Ecclestone and Dave Richards.
Bernie used to be decent because he was from F1, but then started setting crazy rules about bonds to even enter F1, aided and abetted by Mosely and his constant rule tinkering which pushed costs upwards.
Same with did Richards when he just ran Prodrive, and helped McRae win the world title, but now he owns media rights to rallying and was invovled in F1, sportscars etc.
g force said:
I agree. Admittedly, they've swum with a tide that was going that way anyway, in terms of technology, media-friendliness and costs, but they've certainly shaped the way things have gone, and not for the better.
Ten years ago I'd have said Dave Richards was a great bloke. He did a superb job of turning Subaru into a top team and developing young British talent. Both of the McRae brothers and Richard Burns owe their professional careers to the British Championship programme he ran in the early '90s. Lest we forget, he was also Ari Vatanen's co-driver when he won the 1981 World Championship in the Rothmans/David Sutton Escorts.
They were the only private team ever to win the series, and it was Richards who put the team, the car, the sponsors and the programme together.
He's very, very clever and very influential, and unfortunately I think he's used his skills and his contacts to impose his vision of the future on the rest of the sport - although a lot of other poeple have gone along with it.
g force
Affects Shatner's Basoon
Oh yeah Richards has a remarlable record - mcuh liek Jean Todt and Guy Frequelin.
But i think, via the ISC, he's made rallying about the TV coverage and influenced the FIA's rules on cutting stage mileage etc. I used to love waking up in the mornign and flickign on BBC2 to see Steve Rider at Rally HQ to see who had survived Kielder's stage overnight.
Now, teams complain if there's too much mud - although that's not been helped by the ridiculous tyre nomination system! I still watch the WRC avidly, buit hanker for the days of tarmac specialists in 2wd cars beating the finns in 4wd machinery, or the long Finnish stages.
But i think, via the ISC, he's made rallying about the TV coverage and influenced the FIA's rules on cutting stage mileage etc. I used to love waking up in the mornign and flickign on BBC2 to see Steve Rider at Rally HQ to see who had survived Kielder's stage overnight.
Now, teams complain if there's too much mud - although that's not been helped by the ridiculous tyre nomination system! I still watch the WRC avidly, buit hanker for the days of tarmac specialists in 2wd cars beating the finns in 4wd machinery, or the long Finnish stages.
g force said:
I couldn't agree with you more!
I'd love to see the WRC go back to much the same format as it had in the late '80s and early '90s, with longer and tougher events. Tbh, a lot of the on-event costs come from practice and note-taking, and I can't see any reason why some events - ie the Rally GB - shouldn't go back to being 'blind.' It'd be no more dangerous, given that speeds would be lower.
I don't think all-nighters as they had before 1985 are possible any more though. People wouldn't tolerate drivers being on the road for 48 hours at a stretch now, and probably rightly so because modern roads are so much busier - and cars faster - than back in the '70s. But the sort of middle-distance events they had ten or fifteen years ago wouldn't be out of the question.
Tbh, it's a pet idea of mine that a major amateur event should be staged in the UK. They did try it last year with the 'RAC' Rally (which I'd have gone to, had I not been working), but it was IMO too determinedly retro and not ambitious enough. It was a major historic rally, rather than a major rally in itself. I'd like to see a big event for all amateur competitors, following something like the route of the RAC in the '80s and '90s. In the old days, the RAC Rally was very much part of the British rallying scene - it was the big end-of-year bash for amateurs, who got the chance to compete with the professionals - but now the WRC is so separate that that no longer applies. I think that a new, well-organised and well-publicised event could act as a showcase for British rallying and show that it has soemthing to offer as a sport in itself, different from the WRC and independent from it. But I'm daydreaming really...
A gratuitous retro rallying pic for those of us who loved the sport as it used to be:
The Lancia Delta of the early 1990s - watching these things in full flight got me into the sport in the first place.
Have you read Vatanen's autobiography?
Apparently it's long out of print and hard to get now, but I read it years ago and found it really interesting. Very moving too, given that much of it was written in the aftermath of his horrific accident in Argentina in 1985 and deals with the resulting psychological problems (never mind the crushed chest, smashed ankle and internal injuries) that kept him out of the sport for two years.
I'd love to see an updated version, given that he carried on as a top-line driver into the early '90s.
Tbh I can't see myself agreeing much with the bloke - he's a devout Christian and a right-wing Finnish MEP these days - but he's an interesting character, and an awesome driver.
Vatanen in action in an Escort RS...
Apparently it's long out of print and hard to get now, but I read it years ago and found it really interesting. Very moving too, given that much of it was written in the aftermath of his horrific accident in Argentina in 1985 and deals with the resulting psychological problems (never mind the crushed chest, smashed ankle and internal injuries) that kept him out of the sport for two years.
I'd love to see an updated version, given that he carried on as a top-line driver into the early '90s.
Tbh I can't see myself agreeing much with the bloke - he's a devout Christian and a right-wing Finnish MEP these days - but he's an interesting character, and an awesome driver.
Vatanen in action in an Escort RS...
Vencedor said:
They were Irish and the sons of multiple business owning fathers or similar.
i_hate_beckham said:
Because the protection in touring cars is perfect when objects moving at the speed of a cheetah and the weight of a rhino are coming at you!
Accidents happen in all motorsport whatever the class because of 'racing incidents' or collisions. Tard.
Those human legs are protected and toned - belonging to some allegedly very physical strong and fit people.
In sport, I wouldn't go backwards on safety because it [n]might[/b] improve the spectacle and provide some of kind satisfaction for 'bloodsporters'...
SubZeroCat said:
By F3000 and if people do think you have a genuine shot of making F1 in a competitive way - you will get your cars paid for and be one of the drivers getting paid... I'd refer you to any of the top (or just competitive) F1 drivers at the moment and how they were going through things in the lower ranks.
In F3000, doing a Senna/Prost/Schumacher on a competitor takes you out of the race too... which makes such a thing even more tricky...
i_hate_beckham said:
Technical point - 10 teams - and it's not always been the case that Minardi drivers would have to pay to get their drive. They would simply need to have sponsor support (in the case of Alonso and Webber - I strongly suspect they were income earning while at Minardi).
It has Becketts which is great... but for the most part - quite average 
the B said:
You need sponsors though and who are they likely to sponsor? The ones whose dad own Roches Stores or summat....
Also, I dunno what it was like back when Schumacher was starting out but there's a lot of shite going on and this is what I've seen of it. There was no hope for a bloke like my cousin who didn't have big money, status or ruthless behind him.
SubZeroCat said:
Traditionally, they just sponsor anyone good enough to make it. Because they can then get the sponsorship deal straightup when they go into F1.
And yeah - it may well be different now - motorsport worldwide (and sport in general) has become so commercially driven as been discussed rather greatly above
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
they need to rid the sport of fuel stops and bring back tire changes
the B said:
I don't think they do that anymore, which is a shame cos my cousin was bloody talented. I'll try and post pics of him racing in his Formula 3000 car at some point.
the B said:
Point is, that being seen to be 'good enough to make it' depends on how much you start out with.
Even in the lower formulae, success depends on your budget to a great extent, so plenty of good drivers are passed over in the early stages simply because they don't have the money (and at that stage personal wealth comes into it) to win.
That's the same across all forms of professional motorsport.
SubZeroCat said:
Button and Sato had 'em I think... it's been like that across all sports for ages. It's the way to get the youth into the big name pros... you start off with the young'uns and give 'em sponsorship deals they can't refuse as young'uns and the companies scoop up if they hit it big (because of crazy legal clauses).
Hence the reason sport types get 'agents' so they can be "protected"
(or ripped off by someone else!)the B said:Wasn't F3000 identical vehicles?
Or was that F3... hmm...
Less horsepower or summat.
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
the B said:
I agree with Garf!
It'd be much better than fuel stops with no tire changes... and safer.
it brings back the whole driver rather than the machine lead championships
the car would be heavy as ras in the start sluggish to turn in and slower, there'd be a quick bit in the middle of the race where the car was runnign in the sweet spot, there'd be no chance of being able to lay down lap after lap of excessive faster and faster laps cos you'd run out of fuel, and at the end of the race the car would be skittish and jumpy...
nothing will ever beat watching nelson peqiutte pushing his car over the start finish line to win after the ablsoute bloody battle he had to get to p1...
cars which might run otu of fuel would mean more overtaking more and differeing team tactics and the ever present possiblity they might run out of fuel...
all in all much better racing....
GarfieldLeChat
fucking awesome but wrong
the B said:Wasn't F3000 identical vehicles?
Or was that F3... hmm...
no f3 traditionally was last years f1 cars with resricted engines and f3000 were a hybrid of the formular first and f1 cars again with limiters
these days' i think they are all cars designed any built int heir own right rather than as bitsa's or cast offs....
