Formula 1 in excitement shock!!!

[the B]

Michelin almost certainly had all the info they would have needed to make a safe tyre. No one else has ever had problems with tracks getting resurfaced in the past.

IMO, the problem with the new tyres rules (one set per race) and the existence of a "tyre war" being the leading edge of competition in F1.

I guarentee Michelin could have simulated the surface on a computer etc. with ease. Great ease.

 

[Hollis]

You completely have the correct stick, are looking at the right end which is held in your hand.

The only people bitching are the poor fuckers who paid to go (altho their uber rich Americans so not too much sympathy, right?), and the teams who wanted the track changed because THEY'D BOUGHT THE WRONG TYRES!!

Can you imagine how understanding Ron Dennis and co would have been had the tables been turned? Exactly.

So is it only the uber rich that attend these events.. ?

You're right Ron Dennis wouldn't have been in the least bit understanding either. Thats the problem - none of them could really given a shit about the fans.

Given that this was obviously a fuck up and its the first time its happened (as far as I know).. I think the arguments about precedent aren't too significant.

 

[XerxesVargas]

You completely have the correct stick, are looking at the right end which is held in your hand.

The only people bitching are the poor fuckers who paid to go (altho their uber rich Americans so not too much sympathy, right?), and the teams who wanted the track changed because THEY'D BOUGHT THE WRONG TYRES!!

Can you imagine how understanding Ron Dennis and co would have been had the tables been turned? Exactly.

To me, an ex-F1 fan - who is tentativly getting back into it, this is a whitewash. There should have been some sort of race, or no race at all - not the offence that went out on Sunday night.

If you compare this to any other sport - it just woud never have happened. Imagine that when turning up for the world cup final Scotlan were told that thier new boots supplied by their manufacturere had unusually pointy studs which, in a hard tackle, could result in injury to tackler/tackled. What would happen? New boots would be found, bought or borrowed. If nothing could be done then the match would be postponed.

Its just tyres ffs. If they cant sort that out then they are idiots.

 

[the B]

So is it only the uber rich that attend these events.. ?

You're right Ron Dennis wouldn't have been in the least bit understanding either. Thats the problem - none of them could really given a shit about the fans.

Given that this was obviously a fuck up and its the first time its happened (as far as I know).. I think the arguments about precedent aren't too significant.

Tickets these days are about £250. You need to have some money behind you to go these days... and the price of food/drink reflects the ticket price too. Very high.

Ron Dennis isn't an idiot - he knows the importance of fans - they keep McLaren afloat through all the merchandise purchases and pissing off your fans dips sponsorship money too.


Surely the fact it's the first time mean it would be the precedent and is signifcant just in case!

 

[the B]

To me, an ex-F1 fan - who is tentativly getting back into it, this is a whitewash. There should have been some sort of race, or no race at all - not the offence that went out on Sunday night.

If you compare this to any other sport - it just woud never have happened. Imagine that when turning up for the world cup final Scotlan were told that thier new boots supplied by their manufacturere had unusually pointy studs which, in a hard tackle, could result in injury to tackler/tackled. What would happen? New boots would be found, bought or borrowed. If nothing could be done then the match would be postponed.

Its just tyres ffs. If they cant sort that out then they are idiots.

No race at all is so expensive people would be even more pissed off - and Bridgestone runners would want to be rewarded to exploit a Michelin cock-up.

The fact it was such a huge cock-up (totally shit tyre rather than bad one) is the difference.

And in football - your boots don't make the difference between winning and losing (usually). In F1 - tyres count for a hell of lot. The difference of several seconds a lap is due to tyres (and in F1 - seconds are a long time).

 

[Hollis]

The course should've been adapted so a proper race went ahead. The teams/Michelin should have been given full warning that a repeat would result in an abandonment of future races.

I'm still not convinced of the 'uber rich' fan base either.. F1's the sort of sport that attracts obsessive nutters of all incomes..

 

[kyser_soze]

And there's a massive safety implication (altho given that it was RALF who went off I don't honestly see why Michelin went so crazy about the whole thing, it's not like he didn't do it last year...)

 

[the B]

The course should've been adapted so a proper race went ahead. The teams/Michelin should have been given full warning that a repeat would result in an abandonment of future races.

I'm still not convinced of the 'uber rich' fan base either.. F1's the sort of sport that attracts obsessive nutters of all incomes..

Why adapt the course for Michelin? Why fuck over the Bridgeston runners so they are on uncompetitive tyres and give Michelin runners a massive competitive edge?

And I'm sure Michelin have been told 'don't fucking do that again!'

F1 gets all kind of nutty fans - but to actually go to a GP is VERY expensive.

 

[the B]

And there's a massive safety implication (altho given that it was RALF who went off I don't honestly see why Michelin went so crazy about the whole thing, it's not like he didn't do it last year...)

Last year it was a driver error wasn't it? A combination of electronics failure, driver error... big concrete walls instead of soft used rubber tyre walls?

The fact that the indy track is surrounded by concrete walls rather than say rubber tyre walls is another matter entirely...

 

[kea]

surely the football boots analogy only works if you assume that it's rather harder to acquire alternate boots than it actually is?

or is it easier for teams to fit very different tyres at the last minute than i imagine it is?

 

[Wowbagger]

Tickets these days are about £250. You need to have some money behind you to go these days... and the price of food/drink reflects the ticket price too. Very high.

On the other hand, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's only the extremely rich that go: cf. Mr "I saved two months' wages to be here".

 

[Hollis]

Why adapt the course for Michelin? Why fuck over the Bridgeston runners so they are on uncompetitive tyres and give Michelin runners a massive competitive edge?

And I'm sure Michelin have been told 'don't fucking do that again!'

F1 gets all kind of nutty fans - but to actually go to a GP is VERY expensive.

So what - going to Glastonbury's expensive.. is it all rich fuckers who go there?

 

[the B]

surely the football boots analogy only works if you assume that it's rather harder to acquire alternate boots than it actually is?

or is it easier for teams to fit very different tyres at the last minute than i imagine it is?

Tyre testing is a massive component of modern F1 testing because it's a place where restrictions aren't as rigid - it means there are huge performance gains to be made.

And getting new tyres made takes a while... they were planning to send out the specification for Barcelona. They didn't get to but there wasn't a guarentee they were safe either.

 

[the B]

So what - going to Glastonbury's expensive.. is it all rich fuckers who go there?

I'm not saying it's only "rich fuckers"

But to be a regular on the international F1 GP tour - you need a fair amount of money behind you!

I'm not saying it's only rich types who ARE at GPs - but the way ticket inflation has gone (prices have doubled in just a few years) - it'd getting to be richer types who are making up a greater proportion of fans who actually turn up.

 

[kyser_soze]

Last year it was a driver error wasn't it? A combination of electronics failure, driver error... big concrete walls instead of soft used rubber tyre walls?

The fact that the indy track is surrounded by concrete walls rather than say rubber tyre walls is another matter entirely...

*makes movement of winding something up*

To continue the football bot analogy...what the other team would also be asking for would be equivalent to making the goals bigger or extending the penalty area or something, but just so that it made life easier for them, not their opponents.

cf. Mr "I saved two months' wages to be here".

Heh heh, you saw him too...

So what - going to Glastonbury's expensive.. is it all rich fuckers who go there?

If you read some people's comments about 'vibe' and 'having to pay to get in rather than under the fence, mannn' you could be left with that impression...

 

[wordie]

Why adapt the course for Michelin? Why fuck over the Bridgeston runners so they are on uncompetitive tyres and give Michelin runners a massive competitive edge?

Well this is the entire point isn't it.

Yes Michelin fucked up. Yes the teams running Michelins were forced not to race because Michelin told them they had unsafe tyres. Yes there were suggestions made by the Teams, FIA, et al to make a race happen and it appears that no one was prepared to compromise their position for the sake of the sport or the fans.

As I understand it, nine teams agreed to the use of a chicane at turn 13. The FIA, and Ferrari, quite within their legal, if not moral, rights said "no way!" That was even after the Michelin teams said we'll let the Bridgestone teams go to the front of the grid and we'll forfeit any points we might win - which is effectively what has happened in any case, but without the fans seeing a race.

But the point is that when everyone, in exceptional circumstances, with or without a valid reason, refuses to compromise for the sake of the sport, then the sport suffers as it did yesterday.

No one comes out of this with any semblance of professionalism or sportsmanship. The result is also effectively the end of F1 in North America... probably it's most important market.

 

[wordie]

Last year it was a driver error wasn't it? A combination of electronics failure, driver error... big concrete walls instead of soft used rubber tyre walls?

Well actually, if memory serves correctly, it was sudden tyre deflation caused by Ralf picking up some debris somewhere else on the track...

Not that I think Ralf was missed in any way....

 

[the B]

F1 is still strong in Canada - in the USA, it was a developing market which has already been stung with various problems. This was a (forseeable future) death blow.

As far as I know, Michelin teams were not prepared to race for zero reward (championship-wise) but were willing to let Bridgestone runners move up the grid. Got a source?

If it had happened - the result would have been the same and fans would be asking 'why did we see a "race" that wasn't even race-like?"

If there was one good solution - and in my mind, it was the only good solution - Michelin runners should have been forced to adapt their tyres to be safe for the circuit. It was entirely possible for them to do so by increasing tyre pressures and running slower for the final straight.


You race with the equipment you have so long as it's safe. There would have still been a race between 14 cars for two points paying positions - and we all know we would have loved to see Minardis lapping more than half of the field...

You do not bend the rules because you'd be uncompetitive with your current gear due the cock up with your partners to the race.

 

[the B]

Well actually, if memory serves correctly, it was sudden tyre deflation caused by Ralf picking up some debris somewhere else on the track...

Not that I think Ralf was missed in any way....

No, Ralf isn't ever missed

I thought Ralf had picked up the debris by doing something stupid like running off line during a double waved yellows period after a previous incident? A driver error in my mind...

His injuries were mostly down to the concrete walls.

 

[Hollis]

If you read some people's comments about 'vibe' and 'having to pay to get in rather than under the fence, mannn' you could be left with that impression...

Well I'm sure if we spend enough time examining what everyone chooses to spend their money on, we could soon establish that everybody is a rich fucker.

 

[Hollis]

But to be a regular on the international F1 GP tour - you need a fair amount of money behind you!

I'm sure you do.. But I doubt most of the punters at Indianapolis were also hanging around in some launch at Monocco afew weeks ago.. IYSWIM.

 

[the B]

I'm sure you do.. But I doubt most of the punters at Indianapolis were also hanging around in some launch at Monocco afew weeks ago.. IYSWIM.

Actually, there is quite a large group (10,000 or so) of people who will follow the 'tour' over Europe for a month or two.

In a year, this could cost them several thousand pounds...

(and I know plenty of people who are at the GP don't even pay to be there because they work for the right car company and it's their home GP for example - Japanese Grand Prix and Toyota is a hysterical and great example of this! All the employees go down onto their own stand and are told whenever one of their cars goes past they must stand up and wave their flags - it looks so utterly bizarre)

 

[wordie]

As far as I know, Michelin teams were not prepared to race for zero reward (championship-wise) but were willing to let Bridgestone runners move up the grid. Got a source?

Have a look here! Although it's a bit inconclusive.

Here's a little more even handed report.

If there was one good solution - and in my mind, it was the only good solution - Michelin runners should have been forced to adapt their tyres to be safe for the circuit. It was entirely possible for them to do so by increasing tyre pressures and running slower for the final straight.

But the problem was that Michelin said they could not guarantee the safety of the tyres, and can you imagine what sort of race it would have been if seven cars were all backing off by 500 revs at turn 13? On every lap? It would have been even more of a pantomime than what we saw.

You race with the equipment you have so long as it's safe.

Iagree. But the supplier was telling the teams their equipment was not safe. You simply can't do that in the UK let alone the States. Imagine the court case if something ahd gone wrong and someone, anyone, was killed!

You do not bend the rules because you'd be uncompetitive with your current gear due the cock up with your partners to the race.

Well that was exactly the attitude that forced the Michelin teams into the pits before the race started.

I agree with you, but someone has to compromise somewhere along the line or you don't have a sport any longer.

Why was the chicane agreed by nine teams and not accepted by the FIA or Ferrari? I'm sure there were solutions to be found and agreed if everyone was prepared to. But obviously the political situation has become so poisoned that I can't see any solution on the horizon.

I agree, you shouldn't be bending the rules, but if the chicane had been built, and each Michelin team had been given a twenty second penalty for the tyre mistake, or no championship points, and they had accepted that, then why couldn't we see a race?

Why did Ferrari refuse to agree with the other nine teams on the chicane? I dunno, but it stopped a race of sorts!

Why did Michelin bring shit tyres to the US? I dunno, but it stopped a race of sorts!

Why did the FIA not bend the rules and penalise the people responsible for the need to do it? I dunno, but it stopped a race of sorts!

I do blame Michelin and I do blame all the self-centered, egotistical, politically motivated, multi-millionaire morons that have control of what used to be a sport but is now a farce. They had the chance to compromise their positions and allow the fans to see the race they had paid for.

 

[the B]

Actually, Michelin couldn't guarentee competitive and safe tyres. They could have run them safely if they went slowly. A chicane was exactly that measure.

You'd just get two races happening on a track at the same time.

And I'm sure the tyres could have been run to be safe - you just stick the pressures up higher and run slower. Find the optimal comprimise point. Maybe they'd be about five to ten seconds a lap slower.

 

[the B]

The rest of the post...

I didn't see Michelin teams saying 'we'll race and take no points'. A randomly picked time length penalty is a painfully blunt and inaccurate method of deciding what to do. And it could lead to even more controversy at the end if the winner isn't the car that takes the chequered flag (although it has happened before - at least the winner was the first across the line!)

Ferrari didn't agree to the chicane because it doesn't understand why it should have to pay the penalty for the mistakes of a competitor!

Why did Michelin bring shit tyres? They were trying too hard to get a performance advantage and they went way over the mark of safety to performance. Michelin cocked up - simple as.

 

[1927]

but to actually go to a GP is VERY expensive.

Tickets for the Grand Prix yesterday were less than $100,you'd pay more to watch a rugby match!!

 

[the B]

Tickets for the Grand Prix yesterday were less than $100,you'd pay more to watch a rugby match!!

We get conned in Europe then. Or it's just cheap in the USA to try and make F1 that much more popular.

Cheapest adult tickets for the British GP are £200 (or £150 if you booked well in advance) and they are quite far away...

Better seats are £265.

Monaco next year is over £500 for a Sat and Sun ticket in places (no hospitality added).

Cheapest by the track (ie. seated - rather than standing in the car park and having to get the binoculars out) is £334.

 

[1927]

The rest of the post...

I didn't see Michelin teams saying 'we'll race and take no points'.

Oh but they did which makes the whole thing so friggin stupid!

 

[wordie]

An interesting view from Peter Windsor here! It makes interesting reading nad to be honest I can see his point. Agree with him as well.

 

[the B]

The only practical solution was for a chicane to be installed prior to Turn 13 and nine of the teams were prepared to run under these conditions even forgoing championship points or by allowing non-Michelin teams to take top positions on the grid

At that point... I guess it is about the 'precedent'.