Foreigners to blame for English players being shite!

[Gmart]

My starting point is that the Premiership is the English premier league and should contain a majority of English players. Adopting a rule that each team had to have a minimum of five England-eligible players would not deprive us of seeing top foreign players, because it still leaves six spots in each team for foreign players if the manager thought it appropriate.

Well then I think your starting point is inherently discriminatory.

My starting point is decent football. Also real life examples. That's why I showed that having a quota system would simply mean that those English players would demand more money from Wenger and at the same time reduce the quality of the football. Why would we want that?

There is a better case for a quota system against the rest of the world beyond the EU, but even that would be discriminatory.

We will not create better footballers until we learn to teach better skills and to remove the blame culture we have.

 

[kained&able]

I also think it would put transfer prices considerably. If you have a a limited pool of good enough players then obviously clubs wanting to buy them will have to pay a lot for them. Espeiclly as they will have to replaced by another englishman.

Its un workable, illegal and i reckon would push transfer fess up a hell of a lot, certainly initially untill people get academies and insitutes of sport sorted.

Bad bad bad idea.


dave

 

[Augie March]

If the players' development is stifled because they can't get regular first team football, I think that there must inevitably be a substantial impact on how well England play.

Have a look at the England starting eleven for the last few games and see how many players are not first team choices for their clubs. Then see why your argument doesn't hold any weight.

The English football team don't always play well, simply because, the players on the pitch don't always play well. The standard of our starting eleven is always of a high calibre, but this doesn't automatically produce results. This is precisely the reason why Gerrard has jumped on board the quota bandwagon, so as to deflect attention away from the fact that him and the team don't always deliver the goods.

 

[stavros]

Across Europe, we're kind of in the unique position of our leagues representing two national sides in England and Wales. Or are we going to start calling Ryan Giggs a foreigner? And what about Craig Gordon, Keith Gillespie and Shay Given? Are they foreign too?

 

[aylee]

OK I'll try to address the various points that you make.

and what would do about the fact that it is illegal to limit the numbers of european players that are allowed to play in the country.

Of course you're right .... but the footballing authorities are hoping to secure some kind of partial exemption from the European Commission on the ground that it is in the public interest. Whether or not they are able to do so remains to be seen.

My starting point is decent football. Also real life examples. That's why I showed that having a quota system would simply mean that those English players would demand more money from Wenger and at the same time reduce the quality of the football. Why would we want that?

I think the suggestion that quotas would inevitably cause a hike in transfer fees and wages is speculation. I don't think any further growth in either is sustainable in the long term, even for the very biggest clubs. Ultimately, the cost of the very best English players will produce more incentive for clubs to produce more home-grown talent.

We will not create better footballers until we learn to teach better skills and to remove the blame culture we have.

Those are valid points, and as I've said above, introducing a quota system is not a panacea for all the ills of the English game. But I remain convinced that it will go a considerable way towards increasing the pool of top-class English players from which the national side is drawn.

Have a look at the England starting eleven for the last few games and see how many players are not first team choices for their clubs. Then see why your argument doesn't hold any weight.

That's not really the point. I am talking about the medium-to-long-term rather than the immediate future. The England team you would choose if all eligible players were fit is a formidable one, at least on paper. It is the indifferent quality of many of the squad players, and the fact that a lot of the squad is starting to age without adequate replacements coming through, that is of concern to me.

Across Europe, we're kind of in the unique position of our leagues representing two national sides in England and Wales. Or are we going to start calling Ryan Giggs a foreigner? And what about Craig Gordon, Keith Gillespie and Shay Given? Are they foreign too?

Well under Platini's proposal the answer is yes; they would count as foreign players. But I repeat - no-one is suggesting that foreigners or other British nationals should be shut out of the English game together. What I want an end to is the total absurdity of a supposedly English team such as Arsenal not having a single English player in its starting line-up. I can see why Gooners bleat about this proposal, but as someone who supports the national side I am more interested in ensuring the long-term health of English football.

 

[Gmart]

I understand what your saying, and I have some sympathy. I would like to see England in its rightful position as the best in the world and I am not concerned about what the EU says about it, or about any discrimination issue which might arise.

You said:

What I want an end to is the total absurdity of a supposedly English team such as Arsenal not having a single English player in its starting line-up.

And I agree, how dare Arsenal simply concentrate on producing the best football, with the best players for their fans!! Don't they know that their fans are much more concerned about England and that they would much prefer to watch substandard football and lose rather than watch a bunch of skilful foreigners. They come over here, take our jobs...

You go on:

I remain convinced that it will go a considerable way towards increasing the pool of top-class English players from which the national side is drawn.

You are entitled to your view, though I feel that getting our players to play and compete with the best footballers in the world, is the best system, and then we need to deal with the youth system and the quality of players it produces.

Meanwhile what do you feel about a quota system within Europe rather than England. This would be much more likely to happen?

 

[Relahni]

when we had a limit on foreign players in top flight teams, how did England get on?

Worse than they do now.

Can you remember the good old days of Carlton Palmer etc.

 

[Harold Hill]

Benetiz was slated in the summer for saying that the big teams should have 'B' teams in the lower divisions so that their young players can develop, I think it's a good idea. It works in Spain.

Who cares what works in Spain.

 

[aylee]

when we had a limit on foreign players in top flight teams, how did England get on?

Was there ever such a rule? I'm not aware that there ever has been one. Until about 15 years ago, of course, there weren't many foreigners in the English league, but I don't think that was because there was a rule preventing them from playing here. There have always been provisions in the Immigration Rules limiting non-EU nationals to those who play regularly for their countries, but that didn't stop an English team from importing all their playing staff from abroad if that's what they wanted to do.

 

[g force]

Benetiz was slated in the summer for saying that the big teams should have 'B' teams in the lower divisions so that their young players can develop, I think it's a good idea. It works in Spain.

Hmmm...does it? It sort of works in Spain but that's because a lot of top Spanish clubs have very good youth systems. I'm not convinced English clubs do when you look at the output of players. For every Rooney there's a Wallwork

As to how much it helps i'm not sure as they can't be promoted past the equivalent 2nd division so the teams these talented youngsters play against are pretty poor. A good example would be Javier Portillo who broke all sorts of records for Real's B team, scoring over 150 goals (more than Raul). He got to the senior squad and turned out to be nothing more that a bit-part player and is now at Osasuna. Good for Osasuna I suppose because they don't need to bother with a youth team and can snap up other teams players.

A lot of Barca B players who never made it to the first team end up at other clubs and play there. But other have - Puyol was spotted by Cryuff playing centre mid for the B team. Bojan and Dos Santos are now part of the first squad.

I'm also not sure it would fit into the English system. Spain only has 30 or so full-time professional clubs, England has maybe double that? So unless a club accepted becoming no more than a B team in name, eg, Barnet for Arsenal, which I can't see happening unless they buy the club out it's not going to happen.

It was also massively reduce the number of clubs in both cup competitions.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

It wouldn't happen... Our league structure is too traditional and deep rooted... As you say there are far more professional clubs in England - around 92 IIRC

 

[agricola]

How would it fuck them over, the crowds would get a chance to see a young rooney etc, the standard of play would improve.

Loaning is shite, the club have no interest in developing the player and he's away from decent coaching.

Just because Rafa said it doesnt mean it isnt full of shit. Its a rubbish idea, it ruins all the other leagues in order to "strengthen" the main league (of course, the only people it strengthens are the big clubs within the main league) - which is probably what Rafa wants.

Besides, loans improve the player - the most notable being Beckham's loan period at Preston - and give reserve and fringe players the chance to play competitive football and gain experience (Leon Osman, for instance, was twice the player he was since he came back from a loan period at Derby).

As for foriegn players, the problem has not, and never has, been the likes of Zola / Bergkamp / Fabregas / Henry / Cantona etc - its been the shite that are not better than the domestic talent which is currently flooding the leagues, especially the Premiership, and who are here for various reasons (cost, gullible/corrupt managers and agents, mistaken beliefs that they are better than that available here).

Having the current level of English players playing week-in-week-out is not sustainable, and the argument that "by playing the best, they will improve" is fatally flawed by that fact that they arent playing. A quota system is probably the best, simplest way of fixing this, though getting rid of the Champions, "Big Clubs", Third-and-Fourth Free Money League would do more.

 

[kained&able]

Of course you're right .... but the footballing authorities are hoping to secure some kind of partial exemption from the European Commission on the ground that it is in the public interest. Whether or not they are able to do so remains to be seen.

What do you think this would do the the bosman ruling as well. being as that was entirely done on the basis or EU law?

As to the quota system i remember watching man united in the cup winners cup errr time ago when they had to make a choice about weather to play peter schemical or mark hughs beacuse they were only allowed three forigners in a team. It was dumb!


The other point i would like to make is how badly your rules would punish england. In England once you have been over here for 5 years you are allowed to claim English nationality and thus you would not be able to be considered a forigner. Belgium, spain and a few other countires say after two years of working residency you can be considered a national.

This mean say barca, real madrid could go around poaching the top talent around the world as 16 year olds and they could be allowed to play for thier club first team without upsetting the quota by the time they were 18. We would instantly be three years nehind them without a radical overhaul of english law regarding work permits and residency. Would this be able to be kept to jsut professional footballers? what would happen if someone was a footballer and then got injured and had to retire would they be deported?

Introducing a quota system would be a disaster. Unethical and illegal. Bottom line is its about best man for the job weather he be born 1 mile from the satidum and loves the club and the country with a passion or was born 2000 miles away and never even heard of your club before his agent told him they were intrested and thinks there is nothing more to england then rain and bad teeth.


dave

 

[iROBOT]

when we had a limit on foreign players in top flight teams, how did England get on?

Worse than they do now.

Can you remember the good old days of Carlton Palmer etc.

In the 70's...We missed out on TWO finals, and not a single Foreign (ie not uk) in the first division.

They were prob' bitching at the Arsenal back then for having too many Irish and Scottish players

As I've said previously, it's down to our base culture where flair and intelligence is less regarded then being some low rate gangster, with enough bling to attract the "ladies"

I worry for the country as a whole, not just football.

 

[stavros]

Well under Platini's proposal the answer is yes; they would count as foreign players

I can see how Scottish and Irish players would do, but Welsh? The way our league is structured, it is possible for Swansea or Cardiff to win it, so unless you give them a set quota of English players the set-up would be fucked.

 

[kained&able]

There is a wlesh league though! and cardiff and swansea are by no means guarnteed a prmeirship place if they went up.


dave

 

[Phenotypic Dai]

Benetiz was slated in the summer for saying that the big teams should have 'B' teams in the lower divisions so that their young players can develop, I think it's a good idea. It works in Spain.

Yes, and Spain have won loads of world cups due to this fantastic system.

 

[stavros]

Could they really be turned down? On what grounds? Surely it would contravene some European employment law.

 

[g force]

Yes, and Spain have won loads of world cups due to this fantastic system.

Grrrrrr we're looking good for the Euros though....cough....

 

[bigbry]

Take, from my club, Stilian Petrov. Not a bad player, but hardly a great one. Why is he often playing in the Villa first team rather than Craig Gardner?
.

Simple - the Mamager doesn't think Gardener is as good as Petrov or doesn't think his contribution to the squad is as good as Petrov's. If O'Niell thought Gardener was worth the place he'd play him - after all it's O'Niell's job and reputation on the line.

 

[strung out]

As you say there are far more professional clubs in England - around 92 IIRC

even more than that. probably just over a hundred and that number rises even more if you include the semi professional teams.

 

[Gmart]

even more than that. probably just over a hundred and that number rises even more if you include the semi professional teams.

Maybe we need less and higher quality?

 

[bigbry]

My starting point is that the Premiership is the English premier league and should contain a majority of English players. Adopting a rule that each team had to have a minimum of five England-eligible players would not deprive us of seeing top foreign players, because it still leaves six spots in each team for foreign players if the manager thought it appropriate. .

How does 'dumbing down' ever improve anyone ? You only get better 'testing yourself' against better players. This debate started based on Gerrard's view that there should be a quota - a player who many England 'fans' think is World Class (whatever that is) but in the context of truly skilled footballers is just a good footballer with more than usual level of enthusiasm.

 

[agricola]

How does 'dumbing down' ever improve anyone ? You only get better 'testing yourself' against better players. This debate started based on Gerrard's view that there should be a quota - a player who many England 'fans' think is World Class (whatever that is) but in the context of truly skilled footballers is just a good footballer with more than usual level of enthusiasm.

Its not dumbing down, though. That argument only holds water if the English players are worse than the foriegn ones - which, more often than not, is not the case - they are just cheaper (or rather, much easier to justify to the board), and in any case if you have a small minority - 20% to 40% - of English players actually playing in the league, then they arent going to get better, because there arent enough of them.

 

[bigbry]

Across Europe, we're kind of in the unique position of our leagues representing two national sides in England and Wales. Or are we going to start calling Ryan Giggs a foreigner? And what about Craig Gordon, Keith Gillespie and Shay Given? Are they foreign too?

In International football terms ? YES

 

[Gmart]

A European quota system, that's the only one anyone is likely to get... A fixed number of Europeans in a team, with the option of maybe 3 foreigners maximum.

 

[bigbry]

I've just looked up our (English) record in International competition on Wikipedia.

Prior to the influx of foreigners caused by the EPL TV money we failed to qualify for the World Cup on three occasions (74, 78 & 94... I included the latter because after just one season of the EPL it's effect hadn't shown itself). We failed to qulaify for the European Championships on four occasions (64, 72, 76 & 84). In fact between 1971 and 1979 when Stevie Gerrard's beloved Liverpool were winning 2 European Cups, a European Super Cup and a UEFA Cup the international team qualified for nothing ! Since the influx of foreign players England has been to every tournament (so far) and were quarter finalists in their last three tournaments (2002 & 2006 World Cup & 2004 European Championship).

The problem lies with the English mentality and culture. It's not the Johnny Foreigners who are being jailed for drink driving. It's not the Johnny Foreigners who are fighting outside night clubs. It's not the foriegners you see telling the referee to 'fuck off' on MOTD. If we had a change of attitude (and it's not just footballers but all through society) we might have a better success rate at all sports, not just football.

 

[stavros]

What about foreign managers? It's now 15 seasons since an Englishman guided a team to the title, and that doesn't look like changing soon.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I've just looked up our (English) record in International competition on Wikipedia.

Prior to the influx of foreigners caused by the EPL TV money we failed to qualify for the World Cup on three occasions (74, 78 & 94... I included the latter because after just one season of the EPL it's effect hadn't shown itself). We failed to qulaify for the European Championships on four occasions (64, 72, 76 & 84). In fact between 1971 and 1979 when Stevie Gerrard's beloved Liverpool were winning 2 European Cups, a European Super Cup and a UEFA Cup the international team qualified for nothing ! Since the influx of foreign players England has been to every tournament (so far) and were quarter finalists in their last three tournaments (2002 & 2006 World Cup & 2004 European Championship).

The problem lies with the English mentality and culture. It's not the Johnny Foreigners who are being jailed for drink driving. It's not the Johnny Foreigners who are fighting outside night clubs. It's not the foriegners you see telling the referee to 'fuck off' on MOTD. If we had a change of attitude (and it's not just footballers but all through society) we might have a better success rate at all sports, not just football.

I agree. I think the problem does probably lie with the football culture of english players. But also with people's ridiculously high expectations. We have made the quarters of the last 3 big tournaments and were within a fluke goal, a player getting injured, and then the same player getting sent off, of making the semis each time and could have done so if things had gone a bit more our way. The truth is we have a decent enough side, but people expect us to play like fucking brazil 1970 each and every time. do any other country's fans have the same ridiculously high expectations?

 

[pagan]

a fluke goal,

You don't mean Ronaldinho's beautifully crafted trademark free kick in Japan do you
Love the way some people (all English btw) try to say that was a fluke Great goal.
It wasnt Beckham getting sent off in 98 that fucked you up, it was Sols perfectly good header being dissallowed.